478 réponses à ce sujet

[Ecaiki]

Sabriana wrote...

How intriguing. I was going to go with Alistair first, but this might just change my mind.

As for the reviewer, he didn't get anywhere closer to Zevran than the sex,  poor Zevran wasn't given the opportunity to get into the committment area.

Probably would have blown the reviewer's mind.

"WHAT?!  A man from such a background wants to be monogamous?!  Unpossible!"

*boom!*

Modifié par Ecaiki, 30 octobre 2009 - 08:41 .

[Autumn Bard]

Wall of text ahead; read ye who dare!
 
Mary and Sheryl have both posted as I was composing this so some of it is a little redundant now…
 
 
There are some really interesting points made in this thread. Some of it goes to interesting places and I would like to delve a little deeper into some of them, if I may…
 
I am responding mostly to TheDauntless, though there are others I am replying to as well.
 
I understand what you are saying. I get what you mean about how homosexuality is being represented in BioWare games. For example: the earlier fade-to-black in Jade Empire (JE) for both the m/m and f/f options really stood out to me and it did seem to send a particular message. The devs have said it was because of technical issues that I lack the tech savvy t comprehend, but the fact is it is in the game that way, it wasn’t fixed post-release, and that says something too. And I do see the points you made about the “house rules” of how homosexuality is allowed to be represented seeming to be in place and how that can be damaging.
 
I am one of the more rare types who does believe every company, individual, government, etc, including game developer, is responsible for what they put out there. I also believe, as do others occasionally from time to time, what is in a game affects those who play it. Furthermore, this game will become a part of our common culture, so I completely see why the points you make are indeed worth examining.
 
But, and yes, there has to be the but, I also believe there is more to the issue than what has been stated so far. Some pertinent information the developers have disclosed bring different perspective to how the game was made as it was and why.
 
I trust Sheryl Chee, Mary Kirby, and David Gaider when they share with us on the forums how much thought and heart were put into the characters and they would not include homosexuality just for the sake of it. My personal opinion on that matter is it would be good to include homosexuality in the game just for the sake of it even if it wasn’t part of  any of the original characters’ concepts with the caveat of it having to end-up being of good enough quality to publish. But that is just my view on the matter. Yet, the fact remains, this is not something they just threw in. They created deceptively spicy salsa Zevran bi-sexual from the get-go. That is part of his character concept and that reality plays out in the game. To me, that seems a really good way to have homosexuality and bisexuality represented in the game. A character was conceived that way and plays out that way. Perfect.
 
As far as the argument of having to have equal gay : straight ratio goes, besides my personally finding that a fan-freakin-tastic idea, I’m not sure that is terribly practical in reality. At times I, not being a game developer, privately and quietly roll my eyes when I read the devs say they have limited resources and ask whether we would rather they spend the zots on romances or on X. To me it is so obvious where they should spend those precious zots: on the romances and character interactions of course! Who needs bowstrings or horses or long luscious flowing hair? Give me more romance options, deeper friendship paths, and more interaction options! But I am not going to get what I want merely for wanting it since the game developers’ priorities are different than mine. Which isn’t really fair to say because they did spend a lot more time and effort on these things in DA:O than on any other game. David beamed when he said in an interview that RPGers will love DA:O for it. And in turn, those of us who love these things love David for it. 
 
Unfortunately, the priorities of those who make the resource allocation decisions are different than those of us who would like more same-sex and other types of less portrayed romancing (ie with a Dwarf or a mentor such as Wynne, and so on). Yeah, it kinda sucks and it has the potential to become quite oppressive if things take steps backward, but what the game has, at least judging from what the writers have graciously shared with us poor sods [thanks Mary, Sheryl, Jennifer, David, and Cori too! ]  seems to be really cool by virtue of the same-sex romances being well thought out, written, cared about, and tested as much as the opposite-sex romances. What they have given us is quality. And I am happy to be satisfied with that for this release. I think they have done a great job in the same-sex department (again, judging by what the devs have posted) and I applaud them.
 
An important aspect of judging the portrayal of the same-sex romances is seeing how they have fared over the years:
 
Baldur’s Gate (BG, BG II: SoA, and BG II: ToB) : they didn’t exist at all.
 
Neverwinter Nights (NWN) : nor in NWN at all.
 
Knights of the Old Republic ( KotOR) : Juhani was the first same-sex anything in their games. I couldn’t make it work even following the advice in walkthroughs, but it was there. There was indeed more than one line referring to Juhani’s preference. There was even a character side event that occurred on Korriban specifically for Juhani. Her romance was small, it was buggy, and it may have not even been finished, but it was there. The proto-type, so to speak.
 
Jade Empire (JE) : this was the first game that depicted same-sex romances that functioned properly in the game. I would argue while both the Sky and Silk Fox/Princess Lian romances did share much dialogue between their same and opposite sexed romances, they were distinct enough from each other that they were, indeed, separate romances. In fact, I felt it was well done how Sky’s romance with a male PC began with Sky being taken aback because he hadn’t actively considered becoming involved with another man before.
 
Now JE had the unfortunate set-up that the same-sex romances could only proceed if the opposite-sexed interests had been shot down in a less than polite manner rather than in a friendly manner. I think the devs have heard the feedback on that and have changed that for DA:O. 
 
Mass Effect (ME) : to me, ME has some brilliance in its concepts contrasted to much pain in its execution. The Asari as a species were interesting in their conceptual phase, but in the game, I have to agree with others who have stated over the years they felt the Asari were portrayed in a very hyper-sexed way catering to the stereotypical “male-hetero player base”. I dislike such labels but the point conveyed in that label suits ME’s case too well. The point being, the relationship between Shepard and Liara was… what it was and wasn’t very focused on any other peoples’ perspectives nor desires. If it’s goal for female Shepard to have a same-sex romance that was 'typically' gay-friendly, it failed. And there was no m/m relationship at all in ME.
 
So in that sense, ME was taking a large step backward from JE.
 
Dragon Age : Origins (DA:O) : here we have 2 full-fledged same-sex relationships in the game. One for each sex. They are said to be full romances given as much care and effort as the opposite sex romances. That alone is a step way up from ME. Women aren’t treated as sex-objects (wethinks), that is also a step-up. Getting into the same-sex romances doesn’t break the friendship paths with those who would be the hetero options, so that is a step-up from JE.
 
Moreover, the romanceable NPCs react to how the PC treats them and the game takes that into account with how the relationship unfolds! Meaning, the relationships themselves are more dynamic and responsive than ever. This is quite remarkable and I think it is something to celebrate. Especially for the same-sex romances. Zevran can be in an open relationship with the PC based on the PC’s actions (and if the PC is running around sewing their wild oats then were I Zevran, I would certainly not want to be in an exclusive relationship with the PC either even if I couldn’t resist them enough to stop myself from having sex with ‘em.) or he can be in a serious monogamous relationship with the PC. And there are additional relationship markers that have different degrees of closeness. Explicit mention was made of if Zeveran was in love with the PC. Wow. I think what BioWare have given the players in the available romances is remarkable. It’s what I’ve been asking for for a long time.
 
So the point is, I think context is important to consider. See how the games were, how they are, and then give feedback and suggestions to how you would like them to be.
 
I do understand not wanting to give a developer money if you are in disagreement with how they are portraying same-sex relationships in their games. Why would anyone want to give support to a company that isn’t providing them with something they feel is important in their products or may even be causing harm? On that front, I completely agree with you taking that stand TheDauntless.
 
But I also think it’s important to give recognition for advances and to have realistic perspectives. While I agree with you it would be harmful if there were internal Bio-rules stating there cannot be white human male homosexuality, I think in this case when it came down to the higher-ups allowing the resources for only 1 same-sex romance of each sex, then it had to come down to which character the writers felt it suits best. I am happy it is Zevran because he really appeals to me. He had me from “The…” in his character video. 

 
I think in-so-far as both of the bi-sexual NPCs having to look good to the opposite sex too, that is pretty much a given since taste is subjective and these things are based on cultural “norms” of what is attractive in a female and male regardless of which character is engaging with the PC. What I mean is the cultural standard for “good looking” or “appealing” is the same regardless of what a person’s sexual orientation might be. For example, in my culture a female with ‘unwanted’ facial hair is seen in a negative light regardless of where such an imposition originates nor how culturally and personally oppressive such an outward focus on a specific appearance dictate is. A game designed with this same culture in mind is going to follow this culture’s preferences to a large degree - no 'unwanted' facial hair, nor armpit hair, and so on. Besides, I can’t envision any female character being appealing to gay women only and not to straight men. What would such a person look like?
 
While differences such as sexuality are very important and there most certainly are differences in how same-sex relationships play out vs their opposite-sex counterparts (as I was alluding to in the ME part above), they are also not as divisive as all that. Intolerance, fear, etc make the differences seem larger than they are and I think it is easy to get caught-up in the cultural rhetoric driven by fear. There are many different ways of looking at this issue. To explore some of the relevant lines of thought, I would even go so far as to argue, TheDauntless, your statement on white human males not being able to be shown as gay is less a reflection on gay as it is on the lack of multi-human-racial variation in games. One could argue BioWare prefers putting non-humans in their games rather than having non-white humans in leading roles. Obviously there are issues with this logic (ie: all of Jade Empire took place in an Asian setting with Asian peoples, some characters are non-white non-human such as Nathyrra and Viconia, ) and I am not saying this is indeed what BioWare is doing, yet just as with the portrayal of same-sex romance raising serious concerns, so can their lack of representation of racial diversity in general and specifically for romances. I mention this issue as a contrast to show all social issues are very important to discuss and these things strongly impact each other. Each character represents many different things which include their sex, sexuality, race, species, societal roles, class, a whole bunch of aspects. Certainly separating one focus form the whole is useful to examine it closer, but I feel it important to keep sight on the whole as well. I think your points, while good in many respects, are too locked into a vacuum and would benefit from being broadened in order to gain more perspective on the whole of the characters and their functions within the story. In order to do that, you must play the game though. So that is a bit of bind.
 
Generally speaking, there is also the occurrence in this thread of speaking of BioWare as some sort of homogenous entity which is misleading. I am certain there are gay and/or bi devs who have worked on DA:O. And I am certain they would feel attached to the importance of how they display same-sex relationships in their games. I just thought that was important to mention because of how BioWare was being dismissed entirely as being one in thought and feeling on the portrayal of same-sex romances and they have no personal investment in seeing same-sex romances done well nor with respect. I think they have shown they do.
 
And one last point. While the differences in personality between characters can be seen as a means of reinforcing the idea that BioWare is portraying Zevran as promiscuous and thus reinforcing the negative stereotype that all males who engage in same-sex sex are promiscuous, I really don’t think that is the case here. First is the question of whether Zevran does the same with a female PC who is acting the same way as a male PC. Next is the question of how Zevran’s female counterpart reacts under the same circumstances in both the opposite and same-sex relationships. I very much doubt there is a difference between how either Zevran or Leliana/Morrigan react to both relationships. [Addendum: Mary addressed this exact thing just a little while ago after I finished writing all of this]
 
The NPCs have to have the room for their personalities to show. Without that there really is no point to having a party in the first place. Maybe Morrigan and Leliana lean more toward becoming serious in a relationship with one partner quicker than Zevran does, that really doesn’t mean that is a bad reflection on any of the characters. That is just how they were written because that is what felt right to the writers. If, while playing, it feels as if the women are pushovers and the men who engage in same-sex sex are ****ty, or if it feels the writers’ visions for the characters were compromised specifically to pander to a stereotype, then I will concede this is something that needs to be worked on in their future games and I will try to vocalize that on the boards.
 
Goodness knows I have vocalized how much it irked me how females were portrayed in their earlier games and how I disapprove of how much the male PC has control over the female NPCs to far too great an extent. I see a difference here in DA:O wherein there seems to be far more NPC responsiveness to the PC’s behaviour and decisions, but less changing of who the NPCs are at their core. It is great though when characters change and grow throughout the game in a believable way. Another improvement (if it is accurate *crosses fingers*) I am ecstatic about.
 
 
 
So endeth the wall of text. My humble thanks for reading. Whee!
 
Edit: hooray for Sheryl and Mary! Thank you both very kindly

Modifié par Autumn Bard, 30 octobre 2009 - 08:51 .

[Sabriana]

Ecaiki wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

How intriguing. I was going to go with Alistair first, but this might just change my mind.

As for the reviewer, he didn't get anywhere closer to Zevran than the sex,  poor Zevran wasn't given the opportunity to get into the committment area.

Probably would have blown the reviewer's mind.

"WHAT?!  A man from such a background wants to be monogamous?!  Unpossible!"

*boom!*

Rofl. Yeah, imagine that! A prejudiced reviewer passing along his prejudices and everyone got mad about stereotypes. One way or the other. Who'dve thought that?

*dodges brain bits and pieces*

[danabe]

I think you broke the record for longest post!

Nice post tho.

Modifié par danabe, 30 octobre 2009 - 08:57 .

[Arconi4n03]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

My argument has been that white humans are not allowed to be gay/bi in BioWare games.

Will you be playing a white, gay human?

If so...problem solved

You are now one of my favorite people on the forum.

-------

You better mean that cause I have a very fragile ego and it is not often that I'm a favorite people on a forum 

Also, loved reading the wall of text and agreed with nearly all of it, but...

Autumn Bard wrote...


Mass Effect (ME) : to me, ME has some brilliance in its concepts contrasted to much pain in its execution. The Asari as a species were interesting in their conceptual phase, but in the game, I have to agree with others who have stated over the years they felt the Asari were portrayed in a very hyper-sexed way catering to the stereotypical “male-hetero player base”. I dislike such labels but the point conveyed in that label suits ME’s case too well. The point being, the relationship between Shepard and Liara was… what it was and wasn’t very focused on any other peoples’ perspectives nor desires. If it’s goal for female Shepard to have a same-sex romance that was 'typically' gay-friendly, it failed. And there was no m/m relationship at all in ME.

*Ephasis Mine* I find that a very easy answer. Why is it that when there's a f/f relationship in the game that is not up to snuff according to the true lesbians (or is it better to say homosexual women? This is a real question, what is seen as less offensive? ) it is catering to the stereotypical heterosexual male. Why is everything! our fault?

TL/DR; Wahwahwah why do you always blame me

Modifié par Arconi4n03, 30 octobre 2009 - 09:04 .

[Wynne]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Hitting the "love" state is what triggers the jealousy talk for all characters.  Even Zevran.

More mechanics: Everyone will take you back if you stray or tick them off a maximum of two times.  After that, you're dumped.  That was your failsafe so that you could pick one or two conversation options that upset them without terminating the romance irrevocably. 

Depending on personality, some characters will sleep with you before they fall in love.  They will give you an "I don't want to be tied down" speech.  Once they fall in love, you get an, "Okay, remember how I said I didn't want to be tied down?  Yeah, maybe I was wrong" speech.

I tried to quote less of this, but then I read through it and I'm like, "Cool... cool... cool." I like that system. I really, really like it.

[Autumn Bard]

How do you read so fast?!? *old Bioboard's "eye popping" emoticon*

Arconi4n03
Also, loved reading the wall of text and agreed with nearly all of it, but...

Someone read it? And agreed?!? *falls over from force of disbelief*

Bless me for bein' an' idiot if I ha'en't gone and forgotten me manners! Coo!

Thanks!

Autumn Bard wrote...


Mass Effect (ME) : to me, ME has some brilliance in its concepts contrasted to much pain in its execution. The Asari as a species were interesting in their conceptual phase, but in the game, I have to agree with others who have stated over the years they felt the Asari were portrayed in a very hyper-sexed way catering to the stereotypical “male-hetero player base”. I dislike such labels but the point conveyed in that label suits ME’s case too well. The point being, the relationship between Shepard and Liara was… what it was and wasn’t very focused on any other peoples’ perspectives nor desires. If it’s goal for female Shepard to have a same-sex romance that was 'typically' gay-friendly, it failed. And there was no m/m relationship at all in ME.

*Ephasis Mine* I find that a very easy answer. Why is it that when there's a f/f relationship in the game that is not up to snuff according to the true lesbians (or is it better to say homosexual women? This is a real question, what is seen as less offensive? ) it is catering to the stereotypical heterosexual male. Why is everything! our fault?

TL/DR; Wahwahwah why do you always blame me

Oh noes! I had no intention of making you cry! Here, have a cookie. A really big cookie! In fact take these here bunch of really big cookies instead! :happy:

Yeah, in some ways it was an easy answer because I was trying to keep my post down a bit. I wanted to get into more detail about it but thought better of it given how long it took me to write what I already had (which was darn tootin' close to forever, by the way!)

The way I felt was there was no discernable difference between female and male Shepard in how the relationship with Liara played out. From Liara's side, that is excellent because even though the Asari are female, they are monogendered female and see things from a very different perspective than humans do. So to her, female, male... it really didn't matter. And I found that to be a very interesting concept I wish they had explored more in the game. But from Shepard's perspective, I felt some difference between how female and male Shepard related to Liara would have been very impactful and could have made use of an very rare and interesting dynamic and situation. A cool means of exploring the differences between the sexes. Just sayin' that felt very lacking to me.

In answer to why specifically the male-hetero comment; it is simply because it really did feel very heavily male-oriented. At least to me. With Shepard having to be on top during the consumation scene, the inane conversations that were very superficial and avoiding going into depth... To be clear, I am not saying that is what males want, what I am saying is that is the stereotype I felt the ME crew were pandering to. Shoot 'em up no time to talk yeehaw/booyah/whatever! Not to mention the Asari were the only exotic dancers that males of every other species were drooling over, the consort was quite liberal in her hopping into her sex-pod thing, there were no female Turians... let's face it, the Asari just oozed sex the whole time. Even the councilwoman was oozing sexiness. To me, I may be out on a limb here, it seems to be pointing a tad towards my insinuation.

And to be honest, I have no idea what the correct term for lesbian is. I had gone thunk it was lesbian.

Modifié par Autumn Bard, 30 octobre 2009 - 09:45 .

[mrmoneda]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

*Ephasis Mine* I find that a very easy answer. Why is it that when there's a f/f relationship in the game that is not up to snuff according to the true lesbians (or is it better to say homosexual women? This is a real question, what is seen as less offensive? ) it is catering to the stereotypical heterosexual male. Why is everything! our fault?

You aren't necessarily being blamed for the exclusion of non-white, hetero men (or the inclusion of them for exploitative purposes) whenever it's pointed out that this is happening, it's simply being stated that it's happening.

Modifié par mrmoneda, 30 octobre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Arconi4n03]

Autumn Bard wrote...

The way I felt was there was no discernable difference between female and male Shepard in how the relationship with Liara played out. From Liara's side, that is excellent because even though the Asari are female, they are monogendered female and see things from a very different perspective than humans do. So to her, female, male... it really didn't matter. And I found that to be a very interesting concept I wish they had explored more in the game. But from Shepard's perspective, I felt some difference between how female and male Shepard related to Liara would have been very impactful and could have made use of an very rare and interesting dynamic and situation. A cool means of exploring the differences between the sexes. Just sayin' that felt very lacking to me.

In answer to why specifically the male-hetero comment; it is simply because it really did feel very heavily male-oriented. At least to me. With Shepard having to be on top during the consumation scene, the inane conversations that were very superficial and avoiding going into depth... To be clear, I am not saying that is what males want, what I am saying is that is the stereotype I felt the ME crew were pandering to. Shoot 'em up no time to talk yeehaw/booyah/whatever! Not to mention the Asari were the only exotic dancers that males of every other species were drooling over, the consort was quite liberal in her hopping into her sex-pod thing, there were no female Turians... let's face it, the Asari just oozed sex the whole time. Even the councilwoman was oozing sexiness. To me, I may be out on a limb here, it seems to be pointing a tad towards my insinuation.

Ah now that I read this, I understand it I think. And I can happily say that I am not a stereotypical heterpsexual male. The reason I never saw Liara as pandering  to TSHWM (The Stereotypical Heterosexual White Male) is because I never play female characters (in that I think I might be TSHWM ) and thus didn't know that the conversations might feel a little strange since there was little change for male or female. On the one hand that might be considered lacking but, as you said, the Asari are monogendered and an exteremely longelived species, the probably would approach love and sex differently than you and I do. That being said, it was a little jarring that they were pretty much being seen as nothing more than sex objects by more or less the whole galaxy . I would have loved to see a female version of the Turians or even the Krogan. The gal I loved the most in ME was ofcourse Tali so you know...I'm strange.

And keep the text walls coming, it gives me something to do while I'm sitting here pining away time until the 5th

[Forwen]

All I want is confirmation that Leliana is the F/F romance. Come onnnnn BioWare, I know you want to. We all know it's her anyway. Come onnnn!

Modifié par Forwen, 30 octobre 2009 - 12:51 .

[HeathenKing]

Zevran's past really accounts for his personality and whatnot. It's not stereotypical, it's just the way some people are. Anyone crying 'stereotype' about any of these characters really hasn't analyzed their personalities for more than two seconds.

Zevran's an elf who just happens to be gay! STEREOTYPE!

Alright, well, Bioware won't allow a single elf in all of Ferelden to be gay, just to satisfy your ignorance.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheDauntless wrote...

But I'm grateful that BioWare released this thing for reviews ahead of time. I had hopes that if Alistair were open it would be a friendly inclusion and a respectful gesture to the intelligence of BioWare players. That didn't happen and the disappointment that I feel was shared in an earlier thread, mostly by straight posters. Surprise? Going slightly off-topic here, but I'm not pleased about the love-triangle soap operas either.

Making the gay/bi character out to be an afterthought is wrong. Better to not have one at all than to insult us. Making him the alien yet again, and easily interchangeable is very cheap and it doesn't seem to be fooling anybody. I don't know who the female counterpart is/are if any, but in this area DA already failed hard.

So wat...you assume that Zevran is a cooki-cutter throaway character and you desever better (Allistair)?

And then you are insulted by an inclusion of a Bi-character?
You know...if a straight guy would come and say he was insulted by the inclusion of a gay character you'd yell "homophobe" immediately. so what does this make you now? A biphope?

And I think you answered your own question before. The folks in Bioware do this for a living. It is important that the game sells, and they have limited reosurces. They can't take too many risks and the distribution of resources mustbe carefully considered.

Also, keep in mind that romances are a nice bonus, not a critical part of the game. Really, I'd play the game with or without romances. They're not that important in the overall picture.

I don't know how much you enjoyed M/M romances in the past bio games. Frankly I don't care, since it's not my problem. But you should be gratefully for Bio for pushing the envelope and including them.
Lastly, you musn't forget who writes those romances. Not everyone is going to like how it plays out, even with straight romances.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 30 octobre 2009 - 01:31 .

[KethWolfheart]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

 Well if you're not even buying it, then I question why you're even making topics to complain about it.

No one could've guessed the reaction would've turned into all this. But we all felt the need to communicate our thoughts.

My mind hasn't changed. I'm still disappointed. If I didn't have KOTOR, JE, and ME to base my accusations on I wouldn't have posted. History speaks for itself, though. Or at the very least if this were Alistair and not Zevran I would not have any complaints on the basis of race or stereotype.

Fair enough, though maybe Bioware should just not do any same sex relationships in their games in the future to avoid pissing off the same section of the community the're trying to give attention to.

**THIS** is the biggest problem with Dauntlesses post.  It gives the impression, for some odd incomprehensible reason, that he speaks for the entire community.

What is it with people thinking he speaks for everyone?  He does NOT.  Plenty are very happy with Bioware and understands the risks involved and the effort they made.  Each game that comes out shows some improvement over previous games.  By showing support, postive feedback, constructive criticism (versus empty whining) one can hope this forward movement will continue.  Whining and complaining, especially when you have not even played the game, only encourages companies to not include this type of content.

[EDIT - Toned it down a little as I posted before I read through Maria's post.  Yes I read the entire thing and it was very well said and very level headed.  It covered way more than I ever could.  My only gripe is when someone feels person X speaks for the entire Y community.  It is a dangerous assumption and not entirely fair.  It is just as irritating, for example, when you have some one in an MMORPG forum going, "I know I speak for all warriors that this talent bites" type of thing]

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 30 octobre 2009 - 02:05 .

[mrmoneda]

KethWolfheart wrote...

**THIS** is the biggest problem with Dauntlesses post.  It gives the impression, for some odd incomprehensible reason, that he speaks for the entire community.

What is it with people thinking he speaks for everyone?

Unfortunately Dauntless likes to use words like "us" and "we" instead of "I." By the length of this thread I'd say it's worked wonders for him.

[Iokastos]

so..12 pages of rambling because Alistair is not gay?

no malice intended but.. get a life, go to a club and you'll find many alistairs

[Arconi4n03]

Hehe, that be a sight. A guy in full medieval armor, drinking a cosmo while covered in darkspawn blood. He turns to you and says "Hey, wanna make out?"

[mrmoneda]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Hehe, that be a sight. A guy in full medieval armor, drinking a cosmo while covered in darkspawn blood. He turns to you and says "Hey, wanna make out?"

Huh... y'know... reading that has made Alistair kind of interesting for the first time.

I think it was the cosmo.

[Arconi4n03]

mrmoneda wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Hehe, that be a sight. A guy in full medieval armor, drinking a cosmo while covered in darkspawn blood. He turns to you and says "Hey, wanna make out?"

Huh... y'know... reading that has made Alistair kind of interesting for the first time.

I think it was the cosmo.

So you're glad I didn't make it an appletini, easy on the tini?

[mrmoneda]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

mrmoneda wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Hehe, that be a sight. A guy in full medieval armor, drinking a cosmo while covered in darkspawn blood. He turns to you and says "Hey, wanna make out?"

Huh... y'know... reading that has made Alistair kind of interesting for the first time.

I think it was the cosmo.

So you're glad I didn't make it an appletini, easy on the tini?

I must admit that when it comes to mixed drinks I like 'em fruity. The appletini may have actually gotten me to go for makeoutz.

:innocent:

[Arconi4n03]

mrmoneda wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

mrmoneda wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Hehe, that be a sight. A guy in full medieval armor, drinking a cosmo while covered in darkspawn blood. He turns to you and says "Hey, wanna make out?"

Huh... y'know... reading that has made Alistair kind of interesting for the first time.

I think it was the cosmo.

So you're glad I didn't make it an appletini, easy on the tini?

I must admit that when it comes to mixed drinks I like 'em fruity. The appletini may have actually gotten me to go for makeoutz.

:innocent:

*eyebrow waggle ( I really need such a smilie...it's a move I make, like, constantly)* Appletini it is then...I think Alistair won't mind...as long as he's drinking something. The guy's a huge lush, being fought over on a forum does that to you apperantly

Modifié par Arconi4n03, 30 octobre 2009 - 03:22 .

[SnowHeart1]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

The guy's a huge lush being fought over on a forum does that to you apperantly

    ROFLOL!

[mrmoneda]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

The guy's a huge lush being fought over on a forum does that to you apperantly

"Whoa, wait a minute friend, I don't play for that team, sorry."

"Really, Alistair? Should I get you another appletini and ask you again?" <_<

[bas_kon]

frano1 wrote...

the dauntless you are typical gay person...you never get enough...you want rights..we give them to you...then you want more rights...they put m/m romance option in game which is already far more than enough and you complain...so stop wanting gay dark fantasY game which i hope you will never get and dont buy the game and go play as gay in sims or smth...90% of the pps on this world are straight and the game is ofc for that majority not gay minority...tbh i am not homophobic at all..i dont care what you are doing in your private life...my moto is live and let others live...but stop asking too much...its shame that gay minority already dictates alot of rules for straight majority!..but NO YOU SHALL NOT GET GAY DAO...IT STOPS HERE...YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!!

I'm bisexual and like Zebran and Leliana, so i don't complain about it, I'm just happy to have a gay choice in the game, so I can go both ways like I do in real life. But you said something too too much offensive...YOU TR8S ARE NOT GIVING GAY PEOPLE RIGHTS, OK? Because they have it, not  because you are so generous, just because they are people as good and sometimes, even better than you. And I don't agree with the OP, but I really think that if you don't agree with someone you should be at least a little polite. And if you can't, just don't post anything.
And please, stop keep saing that gay people are like the OP, there are more gay and bi people than you ever could imagine, I know many and almost all of them are not like you are saying.

[TheDauntless]

They are absolutely all scripted the same.  What does this say about our portrayal of characters as weak-willed , catty, or promiscuous?  Nothing whatsoever since they are completely uniform in this regard across gender, sexuality, and personality.  Computer programs.  Go figure.

That sounds to me like Zevran treats female and male PCs equally, word-for-word. That Leliana and/or Morrigan treats female and male PCs equally as well, same content no matter which gender somebody plays. Like in Jade Empire and Mass Effect. With all of that in place, how was it determined that Alistair would not be thrown into the mix? Was he written with many gender pronouns in his dialogue as opposed to Zevran who was not? Why one and not the other, if not for the negative reasons which I've highlighted earlier?

Besides, I can’t envision any female character being appealing to gay women only and not to straight men. What would such a person look like?

I'm not so big on that issue needing to be addressed. I'm more upset that no characters are allowed to be exclusively gay for fear of cutting into straight gamers' replayability, and the morals of a vocal few. But there are exclusively straight characters. There should be both characters who are exclusively straight and exclusively gay and in equal quantities among the approachable party members. If not that, they should all be bisexual.

Generally speaking, there is also the occurrence in this thread of speaking of BioWare as some sort of homogenous entity which is misleading. I am certain there are gay and/or bi devs who have worked on DA:O. And I am certain they would feel attached to the importance of how they display same-sex relationships in their games. I just thought that was important to mention because of how BioWare was being dismissed entirely as being one in thought and feeling on the portrayal of same-sex romances and they have no personal investment in seeing same-sex romances done well nor with respect. I think they have shown they do..

I could label the ad men and accountants but they're not here defending the product vigorously with some of the writers.

And one last point. While the differences in personality between characters can be seen as a means of reinforcing the idea that BioWare is portraying Zevran as promiscuous and thus reinforcing the negative stereotype that all males who engage in same-sex sex are promiscuous, I really don’t think that is the case here.

Truth be told I have never commented one way or the other about his perceived-promiscuity by some folks. I never lumped it into my arguments. Although it is nice to hear that he's open to attachment. That does speak well. But then I remember that he's written for female PCs first, and only extended to male PCs too via lack of gender pronouns in his speech and a few lines of code adjusted in his romantic cutscenes.

Then why not package that for Alistair into retail? BioWare dares not risk the sight of two men who look like good old boys from the heartland getting busy in the dirt with the BioWare name attached. Nevermind that reviewers may opt to play female, elf, or dwarf. The risk was there and it could not be tolerated...by ad men and accountants, if you will.

And then you are insulted by an inclusion of a Bi-character?
You know...if a straight guy would come and say he was insulted by the inclusion of a gay character you'd yell "homophobe" immediately. so what does this make you now? A biphope?

I tend to ignore those threads rather than help them grow out the way this one has. It's actually BioWare's ways that are homophobic in this case, likely not by intent but in practice.

The bisexuality of the characters both past and present had nothing to do with LGBT inclusion and more to do with an appeal to portions of the straight gaming audience. If even one of them had been allowed to live up to his or her potential I would have a good example to dredge up. Alas, no. I have no trust in their ability to handle LGBT representation. Their willingness is something for which I will give them the benefit of the doubt. But with no good results that still amounts to nothing.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 30 octobre 2009 - 05:16 .

[mrmoneda]

TheDauntless wrote...

The bisexuality of the characters both past and present had nothing to do with LGBT inclusion and more to do with an appeal to portions of the straight gaming audience. If even one of them had been allowed to live up to his or her potential I would have a good example to dredge up. Alas, no. I have no trust in their ability to handle LGBT representation. Their willingness is something for which I will give them the benefit of the doubt. But with no good results that still amounts to nothing.

So bisexuals are those not living up to their full potential now? Christ... please, just stop.

Modifié par mrmoneda, 30 octobre 2009 - 05:22 .