478 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Mjodr wrote...
TheDauntless, I would actually see your point, if you didn't use propagandic terms.

Homophobia and racist are two terms which are both grossly overused, and not even used correctly when they are used.

You can dislike homosexuality without being afraid of it, which is what homophobia means. And, as there are homosexual characters in the game, that shows there is no discrimination.

No, that's not what homophobia means. Homophobia has never merely meant 'afraid of gay people.' Yes, phobia is derived from phobos, the Greek word for fear, but it means an irrational fear, dislike, or aversion. If I think all non-Americans are evil, then I have xenophobia. If I hate Christians, I have Christianophobia. A phobia does not refer only to fears.

[Eshaye]

I don't think anyone discounts the OP has a right to his opinion or not, the way he has presented it however is not what I'd consider very positive and he's made it rather clear he does not even like the basic game as it is for a few reasons.



So be it, no big deal, make your suggestions but was it really necessary to make all this fuss about it and go so far as to insinuate things about BioWare that as fans we really wouldn't know anyway first hand? Meh :/

[Lucy Glitter]

I don't even know why anyone is still replying to this thread. You guys even got the devs in a tistle. How poor.

[Mjodr]

Maria Caliban wrote...

No, that's not what homophobia means. Homophobia has never merely meant 'afraid of gay people.' Yes, phobia is derived from phobos, the Greek word for fear, but it means an irrational fear, dislike, or aversion. If I think all non-Americans are evil, then I have xenophobia. If I hate Christians, I have Christianophobia. A phobia does not refer only to fears.

Lady, I have been diagnosed with over a dozen phobias, so I know what a phobia is. Your post is purely an insult to people that actually suffer from anxiety disorders, which is what actual homophbia is.

My oddest is a mayonnaise phobie. I am terrified of mayo. Yes, it is an irrational fear. Now, if I merely disliked mayo, that wouldn't be a phobia.

Someone that merely dislikes homosexuality, is not a homophobe. That was my point if you had paid attention.

What annoys me more than people that use terms incorrectly, are no-it-alls that claim they know what they are talking about, when they don't, as if there aren't people that know even more.

And with that, I am no longer coming into this thread.

Modifié par Mjodr, 31 octobre 2009 - 06:38 .

[ScytheDA]

I think maybe "homophobic" was used so much against people who were not afraid but disliked homosexuality, that the definition effectively changed to include those people. But I do think that homophobic/phobia is used too much. People can have dislike for homosexuality based upon religious reasons, and you can start a whole other argument about that. Doesn't mean they want to kill every gay person out there nor does it mean they are secretly scared of them. I did read some people intensified their support for Proposition 8 in California after being called homophobes, or even had more people join that cause.

[BrianWilly]

Total lurker here, and I just wanted to chime in as a gay man and longtime gamer to mention how proud and thankful I am of the steps Bioware have made in representing same-sex romances in DA: O, and that I'm looking forward to, ah, backstabbing Zevran at the earliest opportunity.

:innocent:

[Quesandras]

BrianWilly wrote...

Total lurker here, and I just wanted to chime in as a gay man and longtime gamer to mention how proud and thankful I am of the steps Bioware have made in representing same-sex romances in DA: O, and that I'm looking forward to, ah, backstabbing Zevran at the earliest opportunity.

:innocent:

i hope your a rogue... and just in case you are

also i add to the point that for all the information we have, Zevran is as much a steriotype as Leliana is.

[TheDauntless]

Quesandras wrote...

sometimes sterotypes are right. sometimes there not. its right in this case. isnt there more companions that we could have somewhere? that we might have killed off once or something? so you might still get what you want depending on how you play through.

Depending on how you play your cards, the companion spoilers posted in this thread suggest that the new arrival is like Death's Hand(?) in JE. He's there to fight and act menacing, that's about it.

I think maybe "homophobic" was used so much against people who were not
afraid but disliked homosexuality, that the definition effectively
changed to include those people.

I think it is applicable because the end results of either attribute...fear or dislike...are used to keep LGBT people a step down at best. If not in reality then at least in the mind and heart.

I mentioned much earlier in the thread that I didn't particularly need the LGBT community to be fleshed out as common, regular citizens who may even have a quest here and there during a player's everyday travels in DA...so long as the most important props, the npc henchmen, were given their due for straight and LGBT players alike. Their voices count for more than the background npcs. That obviously didn't happen for the LGBT segment, and then I was given a link to the DA wiki's summary of the game-world's treatment of sexuality. Thus my opinion grew even more negative.

LGBT people get looked upon as "oddities"(?) and Leliana and Zevran are more difficult to approach if you're the same gender as he or she. Is that true for Zevran? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Either way, it is apparent that he enjoys s-l-u-t-ting around with everyone(nothing wrong with that in itself) and that she is hesitant to act on her feelings for a woman. His trait is there to reassure a majority of straight female gamers he is not unavailable, and she is there to hammer in the notion that no one gives much credit to LGBT relationships. Anyone who is unabashedly exclusively gay and/or nonstereotypical is an idea that must be shot down. Who really stands to benefit from those tidbits? I believe the intent is to reinforce a portion of the straight gaming audience's need to be reminded that others must fight just as hard but only to be rewarded with half the kudos.

If anything, the unequal depiction of LGBT people across the board is an unnecessary appeasement to segments of the straight audience who give other straight gamers a bad name. A possible solution was echoed by a small handful of people here, in the form of the idea that everyone's romance-viable props should be bisexual and thus present all gamers with equal opportunities and was a sentiment shared by LGBT and straight gamers alike. Of course some were extremely opposed. As it stands, the past and current treatment from BioWare is exploitive and neither equal nor respectful.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 04:22 .

[mrmoneda]

Saurel wrote...

mrmoneda wrote...

TheDauntless is one of the greatest trolls I've ever encountered. I will need much more acid to deal with this menace.

Acid the drug or the corrosive kind?

The corrosive kind. Fire should do equally well though.

[HeathenKing]

ScytheDA wrote...

I think maybe "homophobic" was used so much against people who were not afraid but disliked homosexuality, that the definition effectively changed to include those people.

Not really. If you take anyone who dislikes homosexuality, and put them in the presence of anything gay, (two guys kissing for example.) they freak out and try to get away from it as fast as possible. Sounds like fear to me.

[mrmoneda]

elemental150 wrote...

I wouldn't say he is giving us a bad name....even if I disagree with him......I still think he has the right to think what he wants, just as you all have the right to disagree.....one thing  I have noticed is that even though TheDauntless has an unpopular opinion (remember I said I disagree with his opinion) he has stayed civil and firm on his belief,  he stands firm and yet offends no one directly......Many other posters have called him names, put him down, stated that he is a waste of time....have in general gotten pretty personal.....not so much in a defense of an oppossing opinion but in an attack against him (and not his opinion)

As far as giving the LGBT community a bad name I feel sorry for anyone actually feels this way.  His opinions are his own just as your opinions are yours.   Don't push his beliefs off on to me or anyone else that happens to be gay......

if the sitautation was reverse and there was only one character to which you could have a heterosexual realtionship and they were bisexual at that...the situation would be pretty similar except many of you people would be complaining instead of one lone man, so don't get it twisted...he has the right to his opinion even if it isn't popular and I would appreciate if the discussion stayed civil

I'd agree with you if, for one thing, I was certain his agenda was equality for gay players. At this point I think his arguments have proven more so that a company shouldn't even attempt inclusion lest they offend people as irrationally offended as he is. Which is why I called him a troll (and a great one) as he's managed to argue this while supposedly arguing for inclusion.

Also, he's insulted other members of the LGBT community, purposely or not I'm unsure, by insinuating they're somehow lesser than. Not "living up to their potential," to quote.

Should I even touch the fact that he'd prefer his completely gay NPC to be white?

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

LGBT people get looked upon as "oddities"(?) and Leliana and Zevran are more difficult to approach if you're the same gender as he or she. Is that true for Zevran? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know about Zevran, but from reading the PRIMA guide on Leliana, there's a reason she hesitates . . .

Leliana SPOILERS


it seems (to me, at least) she's more difficult to romance as a woman for personal reasons and a past relationship she had with a woman named Marjolaine (which went bad, obviously).  Her reluctance to get into another romance with a woman may be due to getting her heart broken by that woman and, as a result, distrusting women.  It's not because she doesn't take F/F relationships as seriously as F/M (actually, she may take F/F more seriously, but is afraid of heartbreak).   

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

LGBT people get looked upon as "oddities"(?) and Leliana and Zevran are more difficult to approach if you're the same gender as he or she. Is that true for Zevran? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know about Zevran, but from reading the PRIMA guide on Leliana, there's a reason she hesitates . . .

Leliana SPOILERS


it seems (to me, at least) she's more difficult to romance as a woman for personal reasons and a past relationship she had with a woman named Marjolaine (which went bad, obviously).  Her reluctance to get into another romance with a woman may be due to getting her heart broken by that woman and, as a result, distrusting women.  It's not because she doesn't take F/F relationships as seriously as F/M (actually, she may take F/F more seriously, but is afraid of heartbreak).   

That would be a more politically-correct reason for her to be hesitant. If it weren't for the fact that she is a worldly bisexual former assassin yet BioWare colors her into believing that all women are like her ex. If she were just a sheltered nun from the start, then perhaps such a perspective would fall into the realm of plausibility. But she is not.

It would not make sense if it were reversed and applied to her opinion of men, either. This does not happen however, because she must be made to be more amenable to the attentions of some straight males to appease them first, bisexuality notwithstanding.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 05:07 .

[Arconi4n03]

Why are people still responding to this guy? You're reaching for so much straws you should build a barn for your haystacks

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

It would not make sense if it were reversed and applied to her opinion of men, either. This does not happen however, because she must be made to be more amenable to the attentions of some straight males to appease them first, bisexuality notwithstanding.

Why should they reverse her fears for a relationship and apply it to men?  Bi-sexuals aren't necessarily equally attracted to men and women with equal strength.  Maybe she's more drawn to women than men, and thus more fearful of rejection and heartbreak?   She's more likely to go with a man because it is the  'easier and safer' option for her?

Though the Leliana male romance is easier and quicker to get, it doesn't appear to be as deep, interesting and ultimately as rewarding as the female one.  In my opinion, the hetero guys are getting ripped off, in her case.

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

It would not make sense if it were reversed and applied to her opinion of men, either. This does not happen however, because she must be made to be more amenable to the attentions of some straight males to appease them first, bisexuality notwithstanding.

Why should they reverse her fears for a relationship and apply it to men?  Bi-sexuals aren't necessarily equally attracted to men and women with equal strength.  Maybe she's more drawn to women than men, and thus more fearful of rejection and heartbreak?   She's more likely to go with a man because it is the  'easier and safer' option for her?

Though the Leliana male romance is easier and quicker to get, it doesn't appear to be as deep, interesting and ultimately as rewarding as the female one.  In my opinion, the hetero guys are getting ripped off, in her case.

Please forgive me, I misplace my trust in people's ability to work through hypothetical exercises.

I stand against the idea of having her(or any romance-viable prop npc) become more difficult or impossible to approach solely on the basis of gender. Yet BioWare has no qualms against writing a sheltered attitude as her characteristic because they believe that most gamers would swallow the assumption that a worldly bisexual former-assassin would judge all women by the actions of one. They are wrong to do so, yet they are right to believe they stand to profit from exploitation.

I have trouble following your assumption that Leliana's F/F interactions are more rewarding than the M/F. Her spoiler profile and the writers' spoilers here hint at nothing which would give cause.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 06:12 .

[Kempeorlaxan]

I think this thread is made by a virgin

Modifié par Kempeorlaxan, 31 octobre 2009 - 06:13 .

[mrmoneda]

TheDauntless wrote...

Please forgive me, I misplace my trust in people's ability to work through hypothetical exercises.

Oh yea, keepin' it classy.

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

Yet BioWare has no qualms against writing a sheltered attitude as her characteristic because they believe that most gamers would swallow the assumption that a worldly bisexual former-assassin would judge all women by the actions of one. They are wrong to do so, yet they are right to believe they stand to profit from exploitation.

I'm not saying she's judging all women based on one.  She knows most women, including female PC, are very different from her ex.   What I'm saying is that she has a fear of major-heartbreak, after having it before.  And I'm saying, hypothetically, she falls for women harder than men.  Thus, there is hesitation in letting herself fall hard again for another woman, when there is a possibility for major heartbreak.   It's risky, and not because she doesn't trust the woman she's falling for, but because of the fear she has that something will go wrong.  And many things can go wrong in a relationship without anyone being at fault.   Victim of circumstance.

If her relationship with a man doesn't work out, she may be bummed, but not as devastated as with a woman.  Even worldly assassins can be fearfult of major-heartbreak.

 I really don't know if this is a correct assessment of this character.  I'm just trying to point out that:  there may be a good reason why a bisexual character is more difficult to romance with one gender vs. another.  And this is reality:  bisexuals don't necessarily view a relationship with a man vs. one with a woman as equal. 

I just wan't to avoid jumping to the conclusion that they are doing this to pander to straight people.  

Modifié par jlb524, 31 octobre 2009 - 06:42 .

[Puppy Love]

TheDauntless wrote...

Yet BioWare has no qualms against writing a sheltered attitude as her characteristic because they believe that most gamers would swallow the assumption that a worldly bisexual former-assassin would judge all women by the actions of one.

Oh bullcrap, heartbreak is a matter of the heart, it is emotional, not logical or rational and even experience can rarely tame it.  Especially for some people.  You can logically and rationally know something to be wrong but be emotionally constrained anyway.  It has nothing to do with experience or being sheltered it has to do with having a heart that can be hurt.  Traumatic experiences, even one, can scar a person for life and fill them with dread.

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not saying she's judging all women based on one.  She knows most women, including female PC, are very different from her ex.   What I'm saying is that she has a fear of major-heartbreak, after having it before.  And I'm saying, hypothetically, she falls for women harder than men.  Thus, there is hesitation in letting herself fall hard again for another woman, when there is a possibility for major heartbreak.   It's risky, and not because she doesn't trust the woman she's falling for, but because of the fear she has that something will go wrong.  And many things can go wrong in a relationship without anyone being at fault.   Victim of circumstance.

It may be possible that she falls for women harder than men. As you are right to point out, bisexuals do not necessarily view men and women equally when sizing up somebody for good times or a future together with.

However, I cannot apply the assumption that she is more keenly attracted to women than to men since it seems that despite the arbitrary difference in how males and females can approach her at the start, everything else plays out exactly the same way regardless of the PC's gender. She feels equally passionate about or offended by the antics of her boyfriend as she does with her girlfriend.

If her relationship with a man doesn't work out, she may be bummed, but not as devastated as with a woman.  Even worldly assassins can be fearfult of major-heartbreak.

 I really don't know if this is a correct assessment of this character.  I'm just trying to point out that:  there may be a good reason why a bisexual character is more difficult to romance with one gender vs. another.  And this is reality:  bisexuals don't necessarily view a relationship with a man vs. one with a woman as equal. 

I just wan't to avoid jumping to the conclusion that they are doing this to pander to straight people.  

True, people are definitely not made of stone. But given that she's seen, experienced, and accomplished quite a lot, it seems folly to believe that Leliana has never learned anything for herself while behaving like a broken-winged bird. These incongruities in her writing do come off as pandering to me.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 07:32 .

[TheDauntless]

Faerieheart wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

Yet BioWare has no qualms against writing a sheltered attitude as her characteristic because they believe that most gamers would swallow the assumption that a worldly bisexual former-assassin would judge all women by the actions of one.

Oh bullcrap, heartbreak is a matter of the heart, it is emotional, not logical or rational and even experience can rarely tame it.  Especially for some people.  You can logically and rationally know something to be wrong but be emotionally constrained anyway.  It has nothing to do with experience or being sheltered it has to do with having a heart that can be hurt.  Traumatic experiences, even one, can scar a person for life and fill them with dread.

I completely agree. And that brings me back to my hypothetical scenario explaining why she is made to be more approachable by male PCs than by female PCs. Heartbreak is used, for those who believe her story, as convenience to mollify criticism which would arise should she come across as more attracted to women than to men. Nevermind that she is not even a completely gay character. Even the hint that a man must work harder than a woman in order to obtain any woman's affection is something that many people cannot tolerate, both in video games and in real life.

I do not support the idea of her being more attracted to either one than the other. But it is clear BioWare does favor one, it is unfavorable to LGBT representation, but that is a theme which they're willing to live with.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 07:30 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

Hmmm,

I don't like this, I don't like that. I want this. I don't want that.

Im sure everyone in these forums has at least one thing they think should be different. Heck I've made several comments/ observations about things I wished were different. But with any game I always look to the sum of all it's parts. Not just one or two individual aspects. Otherwise I'd never buy any games.

Jesus H. Chrimmeny. If your looking at this game and all you can complain about is the way the gay romance NPC looks? Im pretty sure this is the first and mebbe the only game I have ever heard of that even has a gay romance.

And lets be honest. How important to an RPG are romances at all? The're ok, but it is not the most important thing to most players. A good portion of players could care less. Some of those don't like them at all. From their point of view, your romance is taking up resources that could be used for more area's, or battles, or items. So your not just a minority. Your a minority of a minority.

Whew, rant over. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. Should there ever be a real rant? You will be directed to shelters in your local area.

Thank you

Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 31 octobre 2009 - 07:52 .

[Puppy Love]

TheDauntless wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

Yet BioWare has no qualms against writing a sheltered attitude as her characteristic because they believe that most gamers would swallow the assumption that a worldly bisexual former-assassin would judge all women by the actions of one.

Oh bullcrap, heartbreak is a matter of the heart, it is emotional, not logical or rational and even experience can rarely tame it.  Especially for some people.  You can logically and rationally know something to be wrong but be emotionally constrained anyway.  It has nothing to do with experience or being sheltered it has to do with having a heart that can be hurt.  Traumatic experiences, even one, can scar a person for life and fill them with dread.

I completely agree. And that brings me back to my hypothetical scenario explaining why she is made to be more approachable by male PCs than by female PCs. Heartbreak is used, for those who believe her story, as convenience to mollify criticism which would arise should she come across as more attracted to women than to men. Nevermind that she is not even a completely gay character. Even the hint that a man must work harder than a woman in order to obtain any woman's affection is something that many people cannot tolerate, both in video games and in real life.

I do not support the idea of her being more attracted to either one than the other. But it is clear BioWare does favor one, it is unfavorable to LGBT representation, but that is a theme which they're willing to live with.

I like a character to have well character.  What you want is to destroy any semblance of a multifaceted personality.  I'm glad it's the way it is.  I look forward to bringing those feelings back out of her and being all the stronger for it.

[TheDauntless]

I need to rephrase something I said: Even the hint that a man must work as hard or harder than a woman in order to get something they both want is a concept which very many people cannot tolerate. For this reason BioWare pandered and exploited a LGBT character prop.

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Hmmm,

I don't like this, I don't like that. I want this. I don't want that.

Im sure everyone in these forums has at least one thing they think should be different. Heck I've made several comments/ observations about things I wished were different. But with any game I always look to the sum of all it's parts. Not just one or two individual aspects. Otherwise I'd never buy any games.

Jesus H. Chrimmeny. If your looking at this game and all you can complain about is the way the gay romance NPC looks? Im pretty sure this is the first and mebbe the only game I have ever heard of that even has a gay romance.

And lets be honest. How important to an RPG are romances at all? The're ok, but it is not the most important thing to most players. A good portion of players could care less. Some of those don't like them at all. From the're point of view, your romance is taking up resources that could be used for more area's, or battles, or items. So your not just a minority. Your a minority of a minority.

Whew, rant over. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. Should there ever be a real rant? You will be directed to shelters in your local area.

Thank you

BioWare makes the romances out to be more important than their behavior would imply. Most fans are willing to accept their exploitation of LGBT character props.

It's funny you suggest that I wouldn't be buying any video games given my criteria. You're close to right, I'm...obviously very picky. With DA out of the picture I'm thinking of trying out Fable I or II. I know, finally.   Even GTA IV seems to be a much better friend to LGBT representation, and who could've predicted that?   They do not include gay romances or pretend to have realistics depictions of sexuality, thus they do not bear scrutiny for fairness in that subject.

I like a character to have well character.  What you want is to destroy
any semblance of a multifaceted personality.  I'm glad it's the way it
is.  I look forward to bringing those feelings back out of her and
being all the stronger for it.

Actually, what I was suggesting was a more realistic multifaceted personality for Leliana. She may be down about her past girlfriend but since she is clearly bisexual(and it seems she is no virgin to men) I believe the heartbreak can be applied equally to her assessment of male and female candidates alike. It would be more respectful of player preferences and choices. If a male PC has to court her, a female PC will have to court her to the same degree. The romance with her seems 99% identical for either gender you play. Nevertheless, my hope is that the two of you will make a great team together.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 08:10 .