478 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

It may be possible that she falls for women harder than men. As you are right to point out, bisexuals do not necessarily view men and women equally when sizing up somebody for good times or a future together with.

However, I cannot apply the assumption that she is more keenly attracted to women than to men since it seems that despite the difference in how males and females can approach her at the start, everything else plays out exactly the same way regardless of the PC's gender. She feels equally passionate about or offended by the antics of her boyfriend as she does with her girlfriend. 

Do we know that she reacts the same yet?  We do know the romances are scripted the same (everyone dumps you if you cheat on them twice, etc).   Plus, I'm not trying to imply that she won't be upset if her boyfriend cheats on her/dumps her, etc.  She will be, of course.  I'm just saying that maybe she would be more upset with the female doing it (based on her character story), but she may not act any differently.

True, people are definitely not made of stone. But given that she's seen, experienced, and accomplished quite a lot, it seems folly to believe that Leliana has never learned anything for herself while behaving like a broken-winged bird. These incongruities in her writing do come off as pandering to me.

So, you would prefer that Zevran and Leliana were easier to romance with the same-sex PC than the opposite-sex?  Or, equally as easy?   With Zevran, this may be the case, we don't know yet.

Leliana definitely isn't a 'broken-winged bird'.  She's accomplished a lot in her quest to make herself a better person.  Of course, she is worried about slipping back into her old ways.  Falling in love with a woman again may be a reminder of of the last time she was in love with one (back in her wicked days) and this may cause her pause.  This is, of course, irrational and it is one flaw she has (that she eventually overcomes).   You see this flaw as them pandering to straight people.  I see it as a step in deeper character development.    We can agree to disagree on this point.

Lastly, she may hesitate in coming on to the female PC since, 9 chances out of 10, the female PC is straight.  She's worried about 1) offending the PC and 2) falling for a straight girl who is unavailable.  This doesn't seem to apply to Zevran, as he seems comfortable flirting with straight people (Alistair).

[Nial Black-Knee]

Well, I don't consider Fable 2 as having romances per say. Though I never played the gay side. They were more just a way to get some extra bonuses. I mean you do a couple dances in front of your prospect, give them a ring and waalaa your married and having kids. There is no special convo that I remember, and it's not very hard. I do remember getting very tired of being propositioned by hoards of men and women in every town, and village by the end of the game.

[Puppy Love]

TheDauntless wrote...

I need to rephrase something I said: Even the hint that a man must work as hard or harder than a woman in order to get something they both want is a concept which very many people cannot tolerate. For this reason BioWare pandered and exploited a LGBT character prop.

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Hmmm,

I don't like this, I don't like that. I want this. I don't want that.

Im sure everyone in these forums has at least one thing they think should be different. Heck I've made several comments/ observations about things I wished were different. But with any game I always look to the sum of all it's parts. Not just one or two individual aspects. Otherwise I'd never buy any games.

Jesus H. Chrimmeny. If your looking at this game and all you can complain about is the way the gay romance NPC looks? Im pretty sure this is the first and mebbe the only game I have ever heard of that even has a gay romance.

And lets be honest. How important to an RPG are romances at all? The're ok, but it is not the most important thing to most players. A good portion of players could care less. Some of those don't like them at all. From the're point of view, your romance is taking up resources that could be used for more area's, or battles, or items. So your not just a minority. Your a minority of a minority.

Whew, rant over. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. Should there ever be a real rant? You will be directed to shelters in your local area.

Thank you

BioWare makes the romances out to be more important than their behavior would imply. Most fans are willing to accept their exploitation of LGBT character props.

It's funny you suggest that I wouldn't be buying any video games given my criteria. You're close to right, I'm...obviously very picky. With DA out of the picture I'm thinking of trying out Fable I or II. I know, finally.   Even GTA IV seems to be a much better friend to LGBT representation, and who could've predicted that?   They do not include gay romances thus they do not bear scrutiny for fairness in that subject.

Demands for all or nothing leads to nothing.  I'd rather have progress thank you, piecemeal or not.

If everyone had your attitude blacks would still be slaves, women couldn't vote, there'd be no states with gay marraige, and the first antidiscrimination law to protect transexuals would not have just been passed.

Would it be nice if we could wake up tomorrow and we'd all be treated completely equal and pandered to equally, yes.  It's unrealistic and any demands for such is shooting yourself in the foot. 

Bioware is taking a great risk doing what they are and will get flack for it I promise you.  But it is progress none the less and I applaud and thank them for it.  If they didn't do what they are doing, and everyone did like your GTA example and pretended we didn't exist then that's how it would stay.

Modifié par Faerieheart, 31 octobre 2009 - 08:15 .

[mrmoneda]

TheDauntless wrote...
Even GTA IV seems to be a much better friend to LGBT representation, and who could've predicted that?   They do not include gay romances or pretend to have realistics depictions of sexuality, thus they do not bear scrutiny for fairness in that subject.

Rockstar is more friendly to the LGBT community than BioWare because their LGBT characters are loveless, sexless caricatures?

[jlb524]

I just can't get the OP's logic. Completely hetero-centric games are better for LGBTQ people, than games that have 'exploitive' representations of LGBTQ? And this is because Zevran is a token stereotype and a female PC must work harder than a male to get Leliana? First, the media is chock-full of stereotypical representations of all social groups (women, men, white, black, etc). That's why I don't consume a lot of media . . . it's the same, predictable crap over and over again. However, representation is still a good thing. It shows younger LGBTQ people that they are not alone in the hetero-world.

And Rockstar is a LGBT champion:     look here and here

Modifié par jlb524, 31 octobre 2009 - 08:58 .

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

Do we know that she reacts the same yet?  We do know the romances are scripted the same (everyone dumps you if you cheat on them twice, etc).   Plus, I'm not trying to imply that she won't be upset if her boyfriend cheats on her/dumps her, etc.  She will be, of course.  I'm just saying that maybe she would be more upset with the female doing it (based on her character story), but she may not act any differently.

Past BioWare games and the spoilers that have collected in this thread lead me to believe that Leliana and Zevran's romances do in fact play out the same for both male and female PCs. My stance has been that BioWare looks upon the LGBT "inclusion" as a necessary evil but only to a small extent so as not to offend vocal bigoted people. From that it is clear why the LGBT...actually just LBT for the sake of accuracy...romances comprised the same voicework and story as they did from the straight romances. That in itself is not a terrible reason when considering BioWare's budget, and it would have been a cost-effective two for the price of one: adapting the straight romances into "gay" romances with equal pros and cons for both. Such was not the case, however. Jade Empire's "gay" romances were not allowed to culminate the way the straight romances were. KOTOR and ME's exclusively-straight romances could easily have been adapted in development to be open to same-sex interactions as well, but for the reasons which I've gone over that choice was ignored.

The breaking point here is that where I see more choices that would include everybody, some people think of bisexual relations as scraps rendered out from "catering" to fairness, since they feel it diminishes their privilege of having all and or the most choices exclusively presented to them. How people assume they can demand privilege I do not know. Everybody who buys the product pays the same price for it.

So, you would prefer that Zevran and Leliana were easier to romance with the same-sex PC than the opposite-sex?  Or, equally as easy?   With Zevran, this may be the case, we don't know yet.

I would prefer equally as easy, or equally as hard. Within any player's game-world the npc props begin fundamentally identical to the npc props in a different player's game world. A player's actions alone cause the npc props' opinion and esteem of the PC to evolve or devolve depending on the choices made. It is not(or at least should not) be the way the PC is "born." We see that race does not bar a player from romancing any of the approachable npc props. Qualification as a warrior, rogue, or a mage does not expand or eliminate romantic possibilities either. The origin paths do not interfere with initiating romances. Why then should gender be cause for exclusion?

Leliana definitely isn't a 'broken-winged bird'.  She's accomplished a lot in her quest to make herself a better person.  Of course, she is worried about slipping back into her old ways.  Falling in love with a woman again may be a reminder of of the last time she was in love with one (back in her wicked days) and this may cause her pause.  This is, of course, irrational and it is one flaw she has (that she eventually overcomes).   You see this flaw as them pandering to straight people.  I see it as a step in deeper character development.    We can agree to disagree on this point.

Lastly, she may hesitate in coming on to the female PC since, 9 chances out of 10, the female PC is straight.  She's worried about 1) offending the PC and 2) falling for a straight girl who is unavailable.  This doesn't seem to apply to Zevran, as he seems comfortable flirting with straight people (Alistair).

Yes, we can agree to disagree. I wish more people would. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]

I have to say, I'm not a fan of how BioWare associates LGBT people with only the seedy aspects of DA society.
It should be an improvement over past limited portrayals yet here it is both the rogues, a background npc prop in the brothels, and if I remember correctly Isabela the possible 3some/4some npc prop is also a rogue. Also the fact that the LGBT community is looked down upon as a whole in the background lore. That's worse than unoriginal because depictions of LGBT people as miserable specifically because of their sexuality and thus are outcasts is the safe method of including them. That is why I believe the inclusion of Alistair and Morrigan as LGBT npc props would have gone a long way to present a more balanced and respectful LGBT inclusion.

There is one thing which I'm willing to give them credit for. Leliana is not the obvious choice over Morrigan, and because she is a human white female, 50% of the status quo was struck down by BioWare. They may yet strike down the remaining 50% by writing a human white gay man into some future project but please forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:07 .

[TheDauntless]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

Well, I don't consider Fable 2 as having romances per say. Though I never played the gay side. They were more just a way to get some extra bonuses. I mean you do a couple dances in front of your prospect, give them a ring and waalaa your married and having kids. There is no special convo that I remember, and it's not very hard. I do remember getting very tired of being propositioned by hoards of men and women in every town, and village by the end of the game.

Hehehe. That's what I find attractive about it. There's an equal level of depth or lack thereof in Fable's sexuality.

[mrmoneda]

TheDauntless wrote...

They may yet strike down the remaining 50% by writing a human white gay man into some future project but please forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

"I won't be happy until a character is gay, male and white."

Were I a developer reading this I'd try and make it a mandate that this happen, but make the NPC unromanceable.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Didn't I already settle this thread? Homosexuals are gay.

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

I would prefer equally as easy, or equally as hard. Within any player's game-world the npc props begin fundamentally identical to the npc props in a different player's game world. A player's actions alone cause the npc props' opinion and esteem of the PC to evolve or devolve depending on the choices made. It is not(or at least should not) be the way the PC is "born." We see that race does not bar a player from romancing any of the approachable npc props. Qualification as a warrior, rogue, or a mage does not expand or eliminate romantic possibilities either. The origin paths do not interfere with initiating romances. Why then should gender be cause for exclusion?

You have a point here.  In real life, various personal attributes (race, class, occupation, as well as gender) limit romantic possibilities.  In this game, its only gender.  In the game, even a Templar could probably romance Morrigan, if he played his cards right.  A dwarf can romance her, an elf can, the creepiest looking guy you can make can,  but a woman cannot.

TheDauntless wrote...

I have to say, I'm not a fan of how BioWare associates LGBT people with only the seedy aspects of DA society.
It should be an improvement over past limited portrayals yet here it is both the rogues, a background npc prop in the brothels, and if I remember correctly Isabela the possible 3some/4some npc prop is also a rogue. Also the fact that the LGBT community is looked down upon as a whole in the background lore. That's worse than unoriginal because depictions of LGBT people as miserable specifically because of their sexuality and thus are outcasts is the safe method of including them. That is why I believe the inclusion of Alistair and Morrigan as LGBT npc props would have gone a long way to present a more balanced and respectful LGBT inclusion.

There is one thing which I'm willing to give them credit for. Leliana
is not the obvious choice over Morrigan, and because she is a human
white female, 50% of the status quo was struck down by BioWare. They
may yet strike down the remaining 50% by writing a human white gay man
into some future project but please forgive me if I don't hold my
breath.

Where in the background lore are LGBT reprented as miserable because of their second-class status?  I thought the elves were the ones depicted as such.  Am I missing something?

Personally, I think Morrigan is seedier than Leliana.  Morrigan was also the obvious bi-female choice, as you've mentioned.  As a lesbian, I would rather be represented by Leliana than Morrigan, and I'd rather romance Leliana as opposed to Morrigan, trust me!

On the male side, I agree that if Alistair was the M/M, it would've been a bigger step for inclusion (him being white, male, middle-class = uber-normal).   Where we disagree is that I think including a representation of a homosexual romance is a step in a good direction, and maybe one day the white, human male hero will be homosexual also.  I don't think this will happen overnight and this game is taking the needed baby-steps towards acheiving that.   Games like Dragon Age will facilitate this change in the future, whereas games that ignore LGBT will not. 

[Ecaiki]

After reading most of your replies to people (didn't read the spoilers), and your origianl post Dauntless, I've come to the conclusion that you're seeing an issue where one doesn't exist.

You rant and rave about how Zevran is a token gay stereotype, just put in to "throw us a bone".  Yet you've ignored any and all attempts by people, even other gay people and the devs, to correct you.

Since no one took your side with him you've moved on to Leliana, and how it's some great injustice that a woman has to get passed her past issues where a man doesn't.  This is actually a good thing, since it means she's been in a serious relationship before, and the PC isn't her first girl.  As opposed to Zevran, who (just based on scant information) hasn't had a serious relationship with anyone.  How you can be offended by the fact that Leliana is fully bisexual, instead of just bi-curious "Oh, I've never been with a woman before, but I'll do you just because.", is beyond me.

Just be satisfied that we're getting such well developed bisexual characters in a mainstream game by a well known publisher, instead of the ungrateful brat you're coming across as.

Modifié par Ecaiki, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:43 .

[TheDauntless]

Demands for all or nothing leads to nothing.  I'd rather have progress thank you, piecemeal or not.

If
everyone had your attitude blacks would still be slaves, women couldn't
vote, there'd be no states with gay marraige, and the first
antidiscrimination law to protect transexuals would not have just been
passed.

Would it be nice if we could wake up tomorrow and we'd
all be treated completely equal and pandered to equally, yes.  It's
unrealistic and any demands for such is shooting yourself in the foot. 


Bioware is taking a great risk doing what they are and will get
flack for it I promise you.  But it is progress none the less and I
applaud and thank them for it.  If they didn't do what they are doing,
and everyone did like your GTA example and pretended we didn't exist
then that's how it would stay.

Profiting from exploitation is not conducive to the goals which you described, but that's just my view. I'm confused as to why my stance is related to the situations you've described. I'm opting to not buy a product I don't like since buying it would be the same as giving the go-ahead to depict more sideline LGBT npc props.

I mean for example, I'm interested in Avatar in December because I'm starved for a promising space opera. I didn't like the sexist sitcom-chattering in Star Trek at all. Surprise! Even though Avatar promises no gay content, no other movies interest me. I only watch Mad Men and True Blood on TV. Now those do have secondary(at times tertiary) gay characters and the ones in the regular casts are not even white. Yet they never pretend to be fully equal in presentation(unlike BioWare), and the straight characters are just as tormented as the gay ones. The reason I mention these is that they do appeal to me with or without the gay content and when it does appear in their material, we are addressed far more skillfully and respectfully than BioWare pretends to. Nowhere in my preferences do I ever compromise, as you suggest I should do. However, the fools who fumbled the anti-Prop 8 campaign in California did compromise. None of their television spots dared so much as to say, print, or even picture "GAY." The nice gays are the silent, invisible gays. Neutral voters oftentimes were unable to decipher the message at all. Equal rights? Civil rights? Who are they talking about? The pro-8 people got to them splendidly because they were clear in their message and they at least had the backbone to be bold in a divisive issue.

Actually GTA IV has been very positive at gay inclusion. Gay Tony gets respect, trust, and friendship from the straight male protagonists in two chapters of the game, Niko and Luis. And there's a gay guy who is supposed to get capped for one mission. All that together seems much more mature than BioWare's token offerings who are not even allowed to be gay in the first place.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:48 .

[mrmoneda]

jlb524 wrote...

On the male side, I agree that if Alistair was the M/M, it would've
been a bigger step for inclusion (him being white, male, middle-class =
uber-normal).

Actually I'm 100% certain that me being male, black and not heterosexual makes me uber normal also. <_<

[mrmoneda]

TheDauntless wrote...
Yet they never pretend to be fully equal in presentation(unlike BioWare)...

Proof?

[KethWolfheart]

I have been avoiding this thread but it is like a car-wreck, hard to pull your eyes away from it. But this statement by jlb524 is worth repeating (although I take objection to the whole "gay white male" as being the only proper way to represent gays as mainstream as not sure what being white has to do with anything)

On the male side, I agree that if Alistair was the M/M, it would've been a bigger step for inclusion (him being white, male, middle-class = uber-normal). Where we disagree is that I think including a representation of a homosexual romance is a step in a good direction, and maybe one day the white, human male hero will be homosexual also. I don't think this will happen overnight and this game is taking the needed baby-steps towards acheiving that. Games like Dragon Age will facilitate this change in the future, whereas games that ignore LGBT will not.

I can only give one nod to the OP in this entire thread. Annoying as he is at least he has remained even headed, kudos for that.

However the idea that it is better to not-exist at all, to be invisible and excluded from a game, than to have some minor representation makes no sense to me and I will never see that point.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Arconi4n03]

mrmoneda wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

On the male side, I agree that if Alistair was the M/M, it would've
been a bigger step for inclusion (him being white, male, middle-class =
uber-normal).

Actually I'm 100% certain that me being male, black and not heterosexual makes me uber normal also. <_<

You must be confused:P

[Ecaiki]

mrmoneda wrote...

Actually I'm 100% certain that me being male, black and not heterosexual makes me uber normal also. <_<

Hot. <3

[jlb524]

mrmoneda wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

On the male side, I agree that if Alistair was the M/M, it would've
been a bigger step for inclusion (him being white, male, middle-class =
uber-normal).

Actually I'm 100% certain that me being male, black and not heterosexual makes me uber normal also. <_<

I see, so the 'male' part is the key to being uber-normal!    My bad!

[Ecaiki]

jlb524 wrote...

I see, so the 'male' part is the key to being uber-normal!    My bad!

Well everyone knows girls are weird, and have cooties.

[jlb524]

Ecaiki wrote...

Well everyone knows girls are weird, and have cooties.

Cooties have been scientifically proven to only affect straight people.  See, a girl can give a boy cooties, a boy can give a girl cooties, but girls are immune to girl-cooties and vice versa.   So, I'm safe as far as the cooties go

Girls are 'weird'?  OK, you have a point there.  Unfortunately, girls are more affected by girl-weirdness than boys (this has scientific backing as well!)

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

Where in the background lore are LGBT reprented as miserable because of their second-class status?  I thought the elves were the ones depicted as such.  Am I missing something?

I can't remember which page somebody posted that link in, but it was for the sexuality area of the DA wiki. Homosexuality(and by extent bi and tran) is rare and looked down upon as an oddity by society at large or something. Cheery "fantasy." It is because of this that I think Leliana puts too much stock in F/F equaling a dark life, though I based that on your proposal that that could be why Leliana is more hesitant to approach a woman she likes. As for Zevran, he is in fact not encumbered by his sexuality. But his race and his sexuality combined together make him into an outcast. Background LGBT npc props are still categorized as being outcasts as a whole. And among all the denizens in DA there is only one such npc prop who stands for them all.

Personally, I think Morrigan is seedier than Leliana.  Morrigan was also the obvious bi-female choice, as you've mentioned.  As a lesbian, I would rather be represented by Leliana than Morrigan, and I'd rather romance Leliana as opposed to Morrigan, trust me!

On the male side, I agree that if Alistair was the M/M, it would've been a bigger step for inclusion (him being white, male, middle-class = uber-normal).   Where we disagree is that I think including a representation of a homosexual romance is a step in a good direction, and maybe one day the white, human male hero will be homosexual also.  I don't think this will happen overnight and this game is taking the needed baby-steps towards acheiving that.   Games like Dragon Age will facilitate this change in the future, whereas games that ignore LGBT will not. 

I hope so too.   Where we differ is that I believe BioWare is content to stall just where it is.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 10:15 .

[Ecaiki]

jlb524 wrote...

Cooties have been scientifically proven to only affect straight people.  See, a girl can give a boy cooties, a boy can give a girl cooties, but girls are immune to girl-cooties and vice versa.   So, I'm safe as far as the cooties go

Girls are 'weird'?  OK, you have a point there.  Unfortunately, girls are more affected by girl-weirdness than boys (this has scientific backing as well!)

Ah science, is there nothing you can't tell us.

[TheDauntless]

Since no one took your side with him you've moved on to Leliana, and how it's some great injustice that a woman has to get passed her past issues where a man doesn't.  This is actually a good thing, since it means she's been in a serious relationship before, and the PC isn't her first girl.  As opposed to Zevran, who (just based on scant information) hasn't had a serious relationship with anyone.  How you can be offended by the fact that Leliana is fully bisexual, instead of just bi-curious "Oh, I've never been with a woman before, but I'll do you just because.", is beyond me.

No one had questions or rebuttals about my take on Zevran in a while, and people wanted to discuss Leliana.

Because she's merely bisexual in order to appease a number of the straight male gamer segment primarily, with respects to lesbian and bisexual gamers secondary. I do find that to be offensive. Simply because she has F/F experience does not make her out to be any less exploited than if she were new to it. Something tells me a lot of straight male gamers would not mind the fact that she's experienced, not one bit. Lesbian and bisexual gamers too, though as I've mentioned before, any priorities and concerns coming from them rate second in BioWare's actions.

[Ecaiki]

What evidence do you have to back up this claim?

Though it does have me wondering, just what kind of woman would BioWare have to have created to be acceptable to you?  Keeping in mind she still has to be bisexual.

Edit: no need for the quote.
Edit2: added to the second question.

Modifié par Ecaiki, 31 octobre 2009 - 10:31 .

[mrmoneda]

TheDauntless wrote...

Because she's merely bisexual in order to appease a number of the straight male gamer segment primarily, with respects to lesbian and bisexual gamers secondary.

I don't know if anyone's ever told you this, but just because you believe something to be true doesn't mean it is.