478 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

TheDauntless wrote...

elemental150 wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

mrmoneda wrote...

TheDauntless is one of the greatest trolls I've ever encountered. I will need much more acid to deal with this menace.

Honestly, I wouldn't waste anymore of your time.  He's obviously under the opinion that he's right because, in his mind, he's being completely reasonable and doesn't realize he's giving the LGBT community a bad name.

If 14 pages hasn't changed his mind, then nothing will.

I wouldn't say he is giving us a bad name....even if I disagree with him......I still think he has the right to think what he wants, just as you all have the right to disagree.....one thing  I have noticed is that even though TheDauntless has an unpopular opinion (remember I said I disagree with his opinion) he has stayed civil and firm on his belief,  he stands firm and yet offends no one directly......Many other posters have called him names, put him down, stated that he is a waste of time....have in general gotten pretty personal.....not so much in a defense of an oppossing opinion but in an attack against him (and not his opinion)

As far as giving the LGBT community a bad name I feel sorry for anyone actually feels this way.  His opinions are his own just as your opinions are yours.   Don't push his beliefs off on to me or anyone else that happens to be gay......

if the sitautation was reverse and there was only one character to which you could have a heterosexual realtionship and they were bisexual at that...the situation would be pretty similar except many of you people would be complaining instead of one lone man, so don't get it twisted...he has the right to his opinion even if it isn't popular and I would appreciate if the discussion stayed civil

I am trying my best to stick to my "talking points." 

Except the issue is you haven't yet in 13+ pages, made a "point" that has any shread of sense attached to it.

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

I can't remember which page somebody posted that link in, but it was for the sexuality area of the DA wiki. Homosexuality(and by extent bi and tran) is rare and looked down upon as an oddity by society at large or something. Cheery "fantasy." It is because of this that I think Leliana puts too much stock in F/F equaling a dark life, though I based that on your proposal that that could be why Leliana is more hesitant to approach a woman she likes. As for Zevran, he is in fact not encumbered by his sexuality. But his race and his sexuality combined together make him into an outcast. Background LGBT npc props are still categorized as being outcasts as a whole. And among all the denizens in DA there is only one such npc prop who stands for them all.

Ok, I see it in the Wiki.  From the Wiki:
"The majority of Fereldans consider same-sex relations odd, but not immoral, while Orlesians consider it a quirk of character.
"

Since Leliana is Orlesian, she falls into the 'quirk of character' category. 

Ok, I don't think Leliana would hesitate to get into F/F because her and the female PC would lead a dark life.   I don't think Leliana would care about what people think about the relationship.  I was saying she may be hesitant to come on to the female PC at first, in case she falls into the category of people who consider same-sex "odd'.

And, it doesn't appear, from the Wiki blurb, that homosexuals necessarily lead a 'dark' life full of oppression because people think their behavior is 'odd'.  Same-sex relationships are considered 'odd', but not immoral.  In RL, the immorality issue is used the most to oppress LGBT.  Let's see . . . a lot of people think gamers are 'odd' (because its not normal for adults to sit around and play video games, I guess), but they don't think they are immoral.  Are gamers oppressed? 

And, gamers may hesitate to let a non-gamer know that they like them, for fear that the non-gamer will think they are 'odd' or a geek. 

[TheDauntless]

Ecaiki wrote...

What evidence do you have to back up this claim?

Though it does have me wondering, just what kind of woman would BioWare have to have created to be acceptable to you?  Keeping in mind she still has to be bisexual.

She does not need to be a human white female anymore, not with Leliana here. There is no reason against having more with some or all of those qualities in the future at BioWare's discretion, though. Ultimately she should be  equally approachable regardless of PC's gender. Only the PC's actions and choices should affect her friendly/unfriendly status, and her willingness or unwillingness to engage in relations or a relationship. The same goes for any male counterpart. She and he should be bisexual so that BioWare can cope with the workload and to accomodate equal opportunity, thus no one can have more or less claim than someone else does.

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

I can't remember which page somebody posted that link in, but it was for the sexuality area of the DA wiki. Homosexuality(and by extent bi and tran) is rare and looked down upon as an oddity by society at large or something. Cheery "fantasy." It is because of this that I think Leliana puts too much stock in F/F equaling a dark life, though I based that on your proposal that that could be why Leliana is more hesitant to approach a woman she likes. As for Zevran, he is in fact not encumbered by his sexuality. But his race and his sexuality combined together make him into an outcast. Background LGBT npc props are still categorized as being outcasts as a whole. And among all the denizens in DA there is only one such npc prop who stands for them all.

Ok, I see it in the Wiki.  From the Wiki:
"The majority of Fereldans consider same-sex relations odd, but not immoral, while Orlesians consider it a quirk of character.
"

Since Leliana is Orlesian, she falls into the 'quirk of character' category. 

Ok, I don't think Leliana would hesitate to get into F/F because her and the female PC would lead a dark life.   I don't think Leliana would care about what people think about the relationship.  I was saying she may be hesitant to come on to the female PC at first, in case she falls into the category of people who consider same-sex "odd'.

And, it doesn't appear, from the Wiki blurb, that homosexuals necessarily lead a 'dark' life full of oppression because people think their behavior is 'odd'.  Same-sex relationships are considered 'odd', but not immoral.  In RL, the immorality issue is used the most to oppress LGBT.  Let's see . . . a lot of people think gamers are 'odd' (because its not normal for adults to sit around and play video games, I guess), but they don't think they are immoral.  Are gamers oppressed? 

And, gamers may hesitate to let a non-gamer know that they like them, for fear that the non-gamer will think they are 'odd' or a geek. 

I see, that does clear it up. Odd. This almost makes me want to read the background lore to witness specific examples that would result in the "odd" description in the wiki. If there even was any? Why were there no specific mentions added?   I can't say I'm pleased that it's still an unfavorable description but it's not as terrible as I thought.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 10:56 .

[Ecaiki]

TheDauntless wrote...

She does not need to be a human white female anymore, not with Leliana here. There is no reason against having more with some or all of those qualities in the future at BioWare's discretion, though. Ultimately she should be  equally approachable regardless of PC's gender. Only the PC's actions and choices should affect her friendly/unfriendly status, and her willingness or unwillingness to engage in relations or a relationship. The same goes for any male counterpart. She and he should be bisexual so that BioWare can cope with the workload and to accomodate equal opportunity, thus no one can have more or less claim than someone else does.

...ok that is very confusing.

Buuuut, if my WTF to english translator is working right, I think you'll find Leliana is already like that.  Any woman can approach her, and even begin a relationship.  She, sadly, has some extra baggage though that a woman needs to help her with, makes her more human really.

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

Because she's merely bisexual in order to appease a number of the straight male gamer segment primarily, with respects to lesbian and bisexual gamers secondary.

That would be an interesting study.  Tally how many straight guys vs. lesbian/bisexual females play through the Leliana F/F romance. 

Another good question to ask straight men:  instead of the Leliana F/F, would you prefer another female party member for M/F romance?

I don't know the answer to these, but I would like to know if straight male gamers really enjoy playing F/F, or they just say that they do to go along with the 'consensus' that lesbian sex is 'hot'?

[TheDauntless]

Ecaiki wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

She does not need to be a human white female anymore, not with Leliana here. There is no reason against having more with some or all of those qualities in the future at BioWare's discretion, though. Ultimately she should be  equally approachable regardless of PC's gender. Only the PC's actions and choices should affect her friendly/unfriendly status, and her willingness or unwillingness to engage in relations or a relationship. The same goes for any male counterpart. She and he should be bisexual so that BioWare can cope with the workload and to accomodate equal opportunity, thus no one can have more or less claim than someone else does.

...ok that is very confusing.

Buuuut, if my WTF to english translator is working right, I think you'll find Leliana is already like that.  Any woman can approach her, and even begin a relationship.  She, sadly, has some extra baggage though that a woman needs to help her with, makes her more human really.

I have to disagree. She's programmed to be much harder for women to approach. This is for fear that some straight men would be angered if she weren't easily responsive to a male PC's attention.

[mrmoneda]

TheDauntless wrote...

This is for fear that some straight men would be angered if she weren't easily responsive to a male PC's attention.

Do you know what "circular reasoning" is?

[BuOfTheGate]

if any one reads this i'd be pretty impressed 16 pages of what is in my opinion utterly obsolete chat is alot to get thru....

not that i'm thinking gay/ lesbian/ straight rights is a waste of time.... but come on its a game.. wait did i say that right... 'A GAME'.

Now how are games made, especially role play games made by bioware.... well i think u start with a writer, maybe more than one!! (yes i'm trying to cover all the angles people could argue semantics over coz i ain't coming back to look at any responses i'm afraid... probably be playing the gameB))

if the writers want to make the elf gay and the human straight because thats wat they liken their characteristics and cultural influences (etc bla bla) to then fair enough; why do u think they're being predjudiced? from what i skimmed it was due to there only being the one option as opposed to the straight option of two but i think i just answered that, it just didn't link with the way the characters were written. to be honest i think its quite arrogant to expect every character to be gay just coz u'd like the idea of getting in their pants... is that the way the world works for u... coz if it does can u change me into a woman for the night and make a few celeb start batting for the other side:devil:. Sorry if any of u thought that was rude but hey let a guy dream. Anyway i'm not trying to bash u or any1 who holds this opinion... just make fun of u a bit:P the world isn't always what u want and if it was it'd be incredibly boring!! also at the end of the day the sex scene's/relationship developments in games aren't the things that most people are playing for... at least i hope not.

if they are well u get the game tool set so if u want to dress alister up with a fluffy pink thong and tie him to the bed post while the darkspawn storm the keep and u storm his well enjoy<3 oh wait i think i found a way to make my dream a reality!!! let get this party started:wizard:

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...
She and he should be bisexual so that BioWare can cope with the workload and to accomodate equal opportunity, thus no one can have more or less claim than someone else does.

I don't think male PC has any more claim than female PC over her, just because it's easier for him.  I could flip it around and say female PC has more claim over her, since Leliana makes her work harder.  People complained about the Liara Mass Effect romance because she was falling for your PC after talking to her twice.  Their worry was that Liara isn't picky enough.  She will be just as likely to fall for someone who is a complete jerk,  who treats her like crap, who beats up reporters, etc as she is to fall for someone who is a saint.  This kind of cheapens it, IMO.   So, if a woman has to work harder than the man, it could mean Leliana has higher standards for woman.  So, the woman that wins her heart must be very special, and will have more of a claim (IMO) over Leliana than the guy. 

[Ecaiki]

TheDauntless wrote...

I have to disagree. She's programmed to be much harder for women to approach. This is for fear that some straight men would be angered if she weren't easily responsive to a male PC's attention.

Women have an extra hurdle to overcome for sexytime, oh no!

Do you honestly believe that straight men would have been as outraged as you if she had some guy in her past that hurt her badly?



@BuOfTheGate, he's just mad because Alistair won't screw him into the mattress. 

Modifié par Ecaiki, 31 octobre 2009 - 11:16 .

[jlb524]

Ecaiki wrote...

@BuOfTheGate, he's just mad because Alistair won't screw him into the mattress. 

There is a solution to his frustration (a 'workaround' so to speak).

Romance Morrigan.  Tell her you won't have sex with her unless she shapeshifts into Alistair.  Make sure she knows not to change back until you're finished.  After she shapeshifts, begin the Alistair screwing.

Would this be good enough for the guys that wanted Alistair?

I wanted Morrigan to do the same with Leliana when I thought Morrigan was the F/F, but I guess I don't have to worry about that anymore

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...
She and he should be bisexual so that BioWare can cope with the workload and to accomodate equal opportunity, thus no one can have more or less claim than someone else does.

I don't think male PC has any more claim than female PC over her, just because it's easier for him.  I could flip it around and say female PC has more claim over her, since Leliana makes her work harder.  People complained about the Liara Mass Effect romance because she was falling for your PC after talking to her twice.  Their worry was that Liara isn't picky enough.  She will be just as likely to fall for someone who is a complete jerk,  who treats her like crap, who beats up reporters, etc as she is to fall for someone who is a saint.  This kind of cheapens it, IMO.   So, if a woman has to work harder than the man, it could mean Leliana has higher standards for woman.  So, the woman that wins her heart must be very special, and will have more of a claim (IMO) over Leliana than the guy. 

I feel that the female PC does not have "more" claim on Leliana since she has less time to be with her as a lover than the male PC does.

Even if Leliana does have higher standards for women that would make her relationships with male PCs inferior in comparison, and my argument has been that none of the romantic relationships should be superior or inferior when compared with each other. Unfortunately that is how BioWare makes them. They favor the straight relationships IMO. But I believe that if Leliana were burned by her past girlfriend, then a male PC should have say, +100 influence to court her, and a female PC should also have +100 influence to begin flirting as well.

I disliked Liara too. She was shameful exploitation.

Do you honestly believe that straight men would have been as outraged
as you if she had some guy in her past that hurt her badly?

I am completely confused by your question.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 31 octobre 2009 - 11:38 .

[Ecaiki]

TheDauntless wrote...

I am completely confused by your question.

It's simple.  You're (apparently) mad over the lack of equality between the genders in being able to romance Leliana.  Males can walk up to her and start as normal, women have to overcome a hurdle in that she is once bitten twice shy.  So my question is, do you really believe straight males would be as outraged as you are now, if the situation was reversed?

[stevej713]

I've always known that if you want a good romance, you won't find it in a video game. Go outside and find someone.

[jlb524]

TheDauntless wrote...

I feel that the female PC does not have "more" claim on Leliana since she has less time to be with her as a lover than the male PC does.

Even if Leliana does have higher standards for women that would make her relationships with male PCs inferior in comparison, and my argument has been that none of the romantic relationships should be superior or inferior when compared with each other. Unfortunately that is how BioWare makes them. They favor the straight relationships IMO. But I believe that if Leliana were burned by her past girlfriend, then a male PC should have say, +100 influence to court her, and a female PC should also have +100 influence to begin flirting as well.

It seems that Leliana is tough to romance for both male/female, compared to the other 3.  You need a little more influence with her to begin the relationship as female, but to sleep with her, it's the same amount regardless of gender. 

As far as comparing them and saying one romance is superior or inferior to the other, I think that becomes subjective at a certain point.  Take the game Star Wars:  Knights of the Old Republic, for instance.  The gay romance (Juhani) was undeniably inferior to the straight romances (Bastilla/Carth).  With Juhani, you really had to be looking for it, and when you found it, you got one line of dialog.  The Bastilla/Carth romances were very similar in structure, with minor variations.  Saying the Bastilla romance is superior to the Carth one is subjective at this point, because they are both good.  But to say the Carth one is superior to the Juhani one isn't as subjective.  The Carth one was waaayy better.  No one will disagree here.

All Dragon Age romances are structured similarly, with minor variations.  I see the differenct between the male/female Leliana romance as a minor variation, and I think at that point, saying which is inferior or superior is subjective (similar to what I discussed with Carth/Bastilla).  I think the Leliana F/F one is superior b/c 1) I'm a lezzie and 2) I like a harder romance -- I like dealing with baggage and jumping through hoops.   This is a personal thing.  Another player might like the M/F better for personal reasons.  But to make a generalization that the M/F one is better than the F/F unquestionably (like Carth vs. Juhani), I must disagree there.

[TheDauntless]

Ecaiki wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

I am completely confused by your question.

It's simple.  You're (apparently) mad over the lack of equality between the genders in being able to romance Leliana.  Males can walk up to her and start as normal, women have to overcome a hurdle in that she is once bitten twice shy.  So my question is, do you really believe straight males would be as outraged as you are now, if the situation was reversed?

I see now. Yes, that is what I've been saying. A vocal portion of the straight male gaming audience would be extremely ticked off to find that a pretty young human woman likes women more than men, and that males have to work much harder to approach her. With or without a bad ex-boyfriend to color her views.

Whether they would write in the same tone as I do or argue for equal inclusion like I've been doing however, is...not something which sure I'm they'd do.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 01 novembre 2009 - 12:15 .

[Ecaiki]

Somehow I doubt they'd be as ticked off as you think.

Modifié par Ecaiki, 01 novembre 2009 - 12:24 .

[Tragick Flaw]

Ecaiki wrote...

Somehow I doubt they'd be as ticked off as you think.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with you on that.

[Ub3r_]

I'm going to go out and kill Zevron and Leliana just to spite you TheDauntless... though i probably think it would make you happy, because from that point on, they would no longer exist in my game, making it acceptable for you

[SamoanX]

Bro, Alistair's not gay, get over it.



Not everyone is gay as I'm sure you know

[TheDauntless]

jlb524 wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

I feel that the female PC does not have "more" claim on Leliana since she has less time to be with her as a lover than the male PC does.

Even if Leliana does have higher standards for women that would make her relationships with male PCs inferior in comparison, and my argument has been that none of the romantic relationships should be superior or inferior when compared with each other. Unfortunately that is how BioWare makes them. They favor the straight relationships IMO. But I believe that if Leliana were burned by her past girlfriend, then a male PC should have say, +100 influence to court her, and a female PC should also have +100 influence to begin flirting as well.

It seems that Leliana is tough to romance for both male/female, compared to the other 3.  You need a little more influence with her to begin the relationship as female, but to sleep with her, it's the same amount regardless of gender. 

As far as comparing them and saying one romance is superior or inferior to the other, I think that becomes subjective at a certain point.  Take the game Star Wars:  Knights of the Old Republic, for instance.  The gay romance (Juhani) was undeniably inferior to the straight romances (Bastilla/Carth).  With Juhani, you really had to be looking for it, and when you found it, you got one line of dialog.  The Bastilla/Carth romances were very similar in structure, with minor variations.  Saying the Bastilla romance is superior to the Carth one is subjective at this point, because they are both good.  But to say the Carth one is superior to the Juhani one isn't as subjective.  The Carth one was waaayy better.  No one will disagree here.

All Dragon Age romances are structured similarly, with minor variations.  I see the differenct between the male/female Leliana romance as a minor variation, and I think at that point, saying which is inferior or superior is subjective (similar to what I discussed with Carth/Bastilla).  I think the Leliana F/F one is superior b/c 1) I'm a lezzie and 2) I like a harder romance -- I like dealing with baggage and jumping through hoops.   This is a personal thing.  Another player might like the M/F better for personal reasons.  But to make a generalization that the M/F one is better than the F/F unquestionably (like Carth vs. Juhani), I must disagree there.

I have no problem with Leliana being tougher to approach when compared to Morrigan, Alistair, and Zevran. Were they all bisexual, I would still see no problem with that, but in all situations I feel she should be equally hard for males and females to approach. Any distinctions between the two should be in the cutscene animations(body structure differences) and the odd gender pronoun at most, since it has been proven that careful use of those pronouns can lead to situation-appropriate interactions involving one's paramour.

I'm not making the generalization that you mentioned.   It's BioWare's rule, and I'm opposed to it.

Somehow I doubt they'd be as ticked off as you think.

Actually you have a point. They wouldn't be pleased to have to wait longer than 60 hours to get to the goods but they would have the girls of Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball bouncing on the tv in the periphery to keep themselves calm.

[Ub3r_]

TheDauntless says: Q_Q i want mroe gay options, and i will **** about the lack of them till the sun explodes

[Tragick Flaw]

Dauntless, I think anyone playing a RPG can wait a bit longer

Modifié par Tragick Flaw, 01 novembre 2009 - 01:56 .