478 réponses à ce sujet

[TheDauntless]

Captain Hex wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...
Please, do present us with an answer as to why no male characters are allowed to be exploited the way the female characters are.

For someone who seems to hate Zevran so much, you could have at least done yourself the courtesy of watching his reveal trailer. Here's the link. -
It's literally the exact same amount and degree of sexual content that was to be found in the trailers for the females. It describes a portion of their history, displays their finesse in combat, and then shows them topless in a romantic situation. The male characters are shown in the exact same way as the females in these videos. You would know that had you ever watched them.

I have seen them but I mistakenly assumed that other people were capable of catching the double standard employed in depicting Zevran's sexuality as opposed to Leliana and Morrigan's.

I requested an answer regarding the males plural. Alistair looks like he spends more time with the target dummy than on the couch, and if people are willing to assume that Zevran's trailer highlighted male sexuality then I find the presence of a holdout to be odd. Disingenuous.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 01 novembre 2009 - 07:12 .

[allothernamesweretaken]

TheDauntless wrote...

KmAI wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...
Your argument would be true if the male characters were allowed to be cast in the same light as the females are. That being: sexually-active and willing, combat-ready, and better off for all those reasons combined. Why yes, depictions of a woman's physicality both in combat and in ecstasy should be a testament to her good character. Yet depicting a man's sexuality in the same light alongside his battle prowess is going too far, straying into the comfort zone of the insecure among straight male audiences. Therefore it is unfortunate but the truth is the inclusion of female sexuality in promoting a product while excluding the males' is not for the sake of the women's heroism, it is for the sake of exploiting their pixels for the enjoyment of their target audience.

Please, do present us with an answer as to why no male characters are allowed to be exploited the way the female characters are.

So you're ****ing about zevran without even watching his trailer?

Ah yes.. male sexuality and combat prowess is definately avoided..



Literally the same length of exposure too.. 6 seconds.

If this is some sort of exploitation for wanking you have sad standards of the average male stamina. The lamentations of your boyfriends echo in my ears.

My statements have been regarding exploitation of sexuality alone. The exploitation is done willfully and often to females, yet the practice does not extend to the males.

Just as with Morrigan's depiction, Leliana is depicted as extremely inviting to her resident male Grey Warden. There is full body-contact for both women and the message is that both of them intend to get busy with the male. Her lines to a straight male PC are uttered porn-pitch-perfect.

Zevran's depiction is chaste in comparison. They certainly look like they're having a tender moment while drying their clothes, minus any views of his skivvy-clad body in profile unlike Morrigan and Leliana. He lacks full body-contact and his movements and expression remind me of the concern a first-day medic might show for a dazed victim. I'm not sure how to categorize the type of person who would think that his line is meant to be an invitation of any kind. I see why some people may choose to deem this depiction as exploitation though. Those who are unaccustomed to witnessing male sexuality(albeit human and not elf) would take exception even to this confusing portrayal. I found it very confusing myself, though likely for different reasons.

You're seriously just looking for a reason to be pissed.

I have seen them but I mistakenly assumed that other people were
capable of catching the double standard employed in depicting Zevran's
sexuality as opposed to Leliana and Morrigan's.

I requested an
answer regarding the males plural. Alistair looks like he spends more
time with the target dummy than on the couch, and if people are willing
to assume that Zevran's trailer highlighted male sexuality then I find
the presence of a holdout to be odd. Disingenuous.

I don't think you know how marketing works. I hate to break it to you, but we gays aren't the target market of these ads.


You're as bad as the people who cry RACISM everytime a black man dies in a game.

Modifié par allothernamesweretaken, 01 novembre 2009 - 07:25 .

[TheDauntless]

Oh don't get up, I found Alistair's.



No sexual exploitation was done to him. It's quite telling to me when the character physically resembling a school jock bully who gets the girls in public is left out when there are two females demonstrated as being "ever-ready" and a male elf whose half-hearted failure to portray sexuality are all present and accounted for. The one who stands to be
criticized the most by fanboys is absent when it comes to sexual advertising. I feel I may be the only one who isn't pretending to be surprised.

This brings me back to the double standard employed when female bisexuality is exploited to appease the fanboys who give other fanboys a terrible name. LGBT(minus the "G") depictions are to be only portrayed if they appeal to or fail to offend the aforementioned segment of fanboys. All LGBT concerns to BioWare are secondary at best. This is why the LBT character props in BioWare games are exploitive and disrespectful. And it also accounts for why there have been no gay characters at all.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 01 novembre 2009 - 07:32 .

[allothernamesweretaken]

TheDauntless wrote...

Oh don't get up, I found Alistair's.



No sexual exploitation was done to him. It's quite telling to me when the character physically resembling a school jock bully who gets the girls in public is left out when there are two females demonstrated as being "ever-ready" and a male elf whose half-hearted failure to portray sexuality are all present and accounted for. The one who stands to be
criticized the most by fanboys is absent when it comes to sexual advertising. I feel I may be the only one who isn't pretending to be surprised.

This brings me back to the double standard employed when female bisexuality is exploited to appease the fanboys who give other fanboys a terrible name. LGBT(minus the "G") depictions are to be only portrayed if they appeal to or fail to offend the aforementioned segment of fanboys. All LGBT concerns to BioWare are secondary at best. This is why the LBT character props in BioWare games are exploitive and disrespectful. And it also accounts for why there have been no gay characters at all.

No pun intended, but you're butthurt.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

You aren't by chance related to Rev Al Sharpton are you Dauntless? 

[Sinborn]

The cool thing about Dragon Age is that it can easily spit over your perceptions of what is fair and right from a meta-perspective by being a crap-shoot world. Dark fantasy is not ruined by an overabundance or a lack of sex to the degrees this thread has been describing them, regardless of gender orientation. In an ideal world, I would like to have the potential to sleep with every member of the cast, even the dog if it had a sufficiently long and hilarious series of choices that would adequately alienate you from the rest of the party.



It's cool that we can have huge discussions over this though. Shows that people are willing to backup their viewpoints rather than subside to angry yabbering.

[MrGOH]

*Gasp* The advertising to DA:O was sexually exploitative? I am shocked and appalled at Bioware for this atavistic thinking.



Or, shorter TheDauntless: Let me put my LGBT studies degree to use on the low-hanging fruit of video game advertisements by complaining on the fan boards of a videogame whose ads were less sexually exploitative as those of about 90% of major release R rated films.

[Tianwyn]

This is ridiculous. You haven't even played the game yet, let alone seen what Zevran's MM romance is like. If you try it and don't like it, wait for player-made mods that let you romance Alistair as a guy. There, that simple. But judging something before you know much about it just leads to a lot of logical fallacy. And if you're mad just because you don't get Alistair right away, that's sorta immature. I still haven't gotten a Haer'Dalis romance for BG2, and that doesn't mean I can't enjoy other romances, and it doesn't mean I'm bitter about it.

[allothernamesweretaken]

Tianwyn wrote...

This is ridiculous. You haven't even played the game yet, let alone seen what Zevran's MM romance is like. If you try it and don't like it, wait for player-made mods that let you romance Alistair as a guy. There, that simple. But judging something before you know much about it just leads to a lot of logical fallacy. And if you're mad just because you don't get Alistair right away, that's sorta immature. I still haven't gotten a Haer'Dalis romance for BG2, and that doesn't mean I can't enjoy other romances, and it doesn't mean I'm bitter about it.

Quite a few people want a Tali romance, too

[TheDauntless]

MrGOH wrote...

*Gasp* The advertising to DA:O was sexually exploitative? I am shocked and appalled at Bioware for this atavistic thinking.

Or, shorter TheDauntless: Let me put my LGBT studies degree to use on the low-hanging fruit of video game advertisements by complaining on the fan boards of a videogame whose ads were less sexually exploitative as those of about 90% of major release R rated films.

Sexual exploitation in advertising is well and good when it exploits the men and the women equally. BioWare does not because they pretend to respectfully include LGBT gamers when in fact their heavy use of feminine sexual exploitation alone is in no way performed for the benefit of the LGBT community or women, but rather to appeal to close-minded portions of straight male gamers at the expense of actual LGBT people and female gamers.

It is not restricted to their advertising, and that is the reason why there are no gay characters permitted in DA, nor in any BioWare products of the past. It is also why there is an unequal number of possible heterosexual romance-viable situations as opposed to the "homosexual" occurences with bisexual npc props, with the numbers leaning in favor of the heterosexual encounters. It is also why, during the same-sex courtship with the bisexual female, a male PC is able to persuade her to mate with ease whereas a female must work harder. Aside for this arbitrary difference, the romances do not play out any differently for either the male or female PCs.

Their claim is that they approach romance and sex with "taste" and "maturity," but there is quite a discrepancy in what they say as opposed to their actions as can be seen in their past products.

All these unfortunate circumstances were made to come about due to BioWare's willingness to pander to an unfavorable segment of straight male gamers while pretending to respectfully include LGBT representation.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 01 novembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Hex of Hell]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You aren't by chance related to Rev Al Sharpton are you Dauntless? 

Boston Legal wrote...

Reverend Al Sharpton: The image of Santa Claus has been crafted for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, but we're supposed to be in a different day. Give the world a black Santa Claus. Let the people have an African-American  come down the chimney bearing joy and good will.
Alan Shore: Gay, not black.
Reveren Al Sharpton: The prejudice against gay people must stop. We all say we're for gay rights. We all say we accept homosexuality. But give a gay man a hug, sit in his lap...
Judge Harry Hingham: Who is this man?
ReverendAl Sharpton: Let the bells of tolerance ring out this Christmas. Let people open their minds as they open their presents underneath the tree. We need your mind, judge, today. Let the gay man be my brother, be your brother, be the schoolteacher, be the construction worker! Give the world a gay Santa Claus! God Almighty, God Almighty, God Almighty.
Leave out the cookies and the milk this Christmas Eve for a holly, jolly homosexual! God Almighty!

:innocent:

Modifié par Captain Hex, 01 novembre 2009 - 07:59 .

[allothernamesweretaken]

TheDauntless wrote...

MrGOH wrote...

*Gasp* The advertising to DA:O was sexually exploitative? I am shocked and appalled at Bioware for this atavistic thinking.

Or, shorter TheDauntless: Let me put my LGBT studies degree to use on the low-hanging fruit of video game advertisements by complaining on the fan boards of a videogame whose ads were less sexually exploitative as those of about 90% of major release R rated films.

Sexual exploitation in advertising is well and good when it exploits the men and the women equally.

Your persecution complex, mixed with that statement, leaves me speechless

Modifié par allothernamesweretaken, 01 novembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Captain Hex wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You aren't by chance related to Rev Al Sharpton are you Dauntless? 

Boston Legal wrote...

Reverend Al Sharpton: The image of Santa Claus has been crafted for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, but we're supposed to be in a different day. Give the world a black Santa Claus. Let the people have an African-American  come down the chimney bearing joy and good will.
Alan Shore: Gay, not black.
Reveren Al Sharpton: The prejudice against gay people must stop. We all say we're for gay rights. We all say we accept homosexuality. But give a gay man a hug, sit in his lap...
Judge Harry Hingham: Who is this man?
ReverendAl Sharpton: Let the bells of tolerance ring out this Christmas. Let people open their minds as they open their presents underneath the tree. We need your mind, judge, today. Let the gay man be my brother, be your brother, be the schoolteacher, be the construction worker! Give the world a gay Santa Claus! God Almighty, God Almighty, God Almighty.
Leave out the cookies and the milk this Christmas Eve for a holly, jolly homosexual! God Almighty!

:innocent:

LOL 

In all seriousness though, it always seems like the biggest racist are always the first and loudest to scream about being discriminated against. The good ol "Rev" Al is prolly one of the biggest flat out racist people I think I've ever had the misfortune of seeing in action. This thread is pretty evident of that imo. Except in this case, its a obvious drama queen making something out of nothing and trying to claim vocal representation for a whole group and being just flatout out of his trees in the first place.

[TheDauntless]

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Your persecution complex, mixed with that statement, leaves me speechless

I have always argued for gender equality across the board. BioWare claims to favor gender equality. If they were to back that up I would be most appreciative.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 01 novembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[allothernamesweretaken]

TheDauntless wrote...

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

Your persecution complex, mixed with that statement, leaves me speechless

I have always argued for gender equality across the board. BioWare claims to favor gender equality. If they were to back that up I would be most appreciative.

So, basically, you're not happy with how much they're already sticking their neck out?

You're not happy that they do this, in spite of the fact that the mere presence of a homosexual romance option could cause a massive media uproar?

You have no perspective.

[MrGOH]

TheDauntless wrote...

MrGOH wrote...

*Gasp* The advertising to DA:O was sexually exploitative? I am shocked and appalled at Bioware for this atavistic thinking.

Or, shorter TheDauntless: Let me put my LGBT studies degree to use on the low-hanging fruit of video game advertisements by complaining on the fan boards of a videogame whose ads were less sexually exploitative as those of about 90% of major release R rated films.

Sexual exploitation in advertising is well and good when it exploits the men and the women equally. BioWare does not because they pretend to respectfully include LGBT gamers when in fact their heavy use of feminine sexual exploitation alone is in no way performed for the benefit of the LGBT community or women, but rather to appeal to close-minded portions of straight male gamers at the expense of actual LGBT people and female gamers.

It is not restricted to their advertising, and that is the reason why there are no gay characters permitted in DA, nor in any BioWare products of the past. It is also why there is an unequal number of possible heterosexual romance-viable situations as opposed to the "homosexual" occurences with bisexual npc props, with the numbers leaning in favor of the heterosexual encounters. It is also why, during the same-sex courtship with the bisexual female, a male PC is able to persuade her to mate with ease whereas a female must work harder.

Their claim is that they approach romance and sex with "taste" and "maturity," but there is quite a discrepancy in what they say as opposed to their actions as can be seen in their past products.

All these unfortunate circumstances were made to come about due to BioWare's willingness to pander to an unfavorable segment of straight male gamers while pretending to respectfully include LGBT representation.

I'm not sure you have to work harder to get the bi NPC's the romance you in DA:O; the devs admitted that was a bad decision on their part when it went down in Jade Empire that way.

As for the advertising, they pandered to the teen male crowd because that crowd responds to such pandering by buying the game; females and (most) gay gamers may wish that they would be titillated by the character profiles, but marketers consider them either more sophisticated (in the case of gay people) or more responsive to other features and that catering to them in a minute long video would turn off the masses of horny male teens.

I understand your point about the culture - minorities get only token nods to what they want. At least in advertising and, I suppose, in the distribution of sexuality amongst the NPC's. Why let Bioware get away with tokenship - prod them to do even better, to actually include homosexual-only romances and to fully realize the dreams of the gay gaming minority. That's a fine sentiment.

However, I think it's ultimately unproductive complaining on the boards as a lone activist voice who has said he won't buy the game despite it being nominally better than most others in this department. You're not even in the customer base, just a theoretical customer they could pick up at some future time when they already have a strong following amongst gay and lesbian gamers. Further, you've demonstrated a pickiness that probably leaves developers thinking it's not worth their time to pander to.

Really, though, given the state of the public's attitudes towards sexuality,  complaining about a video game with same-sex relationships in it because it doesn't have strictly homosexual NPC's and is marketed to the wide audience of young straight male gamers is a tempest in a teacup.

[Ecaiki]

TheDauntless wrote...

I have seen them but I mistakenly assumed that other people were capable of catching the double standard employed in depicting Zevran's sexuality as opposed to Leliana and Morrigan's.

I requested an answer regarding the males plural. Alistair looks like he spends more time with the target dummy than on the couch, and if people are willing to assume that Zevran's trailer highlighted male sexuality then I find the presence of a holdout to be odd. Disingenuous.

Fun fact: Alistair's video was released before romances were ever confirmed by the devs, so there was no way his was going to include sexytime.  Morrigan's, Leliana's and Zevran's were released after the confirmation of each character, hence theirs include sexytime fun.

But that answer doesn't mesh with your "they hate teh gayz!!!" rant, so carry on.

[StormbringerGT]

I'm sorry you won't be playing this game dauntless. Sometimes standing up for what you believe in is painful.



As a side note, you take this very seriously don't you? Its a video game too. Totally serious question, do you voice your opinions so strongly about the rest of the media that is dominated to be appealing male audiences? (or are you justing waiting for the 3rd like the rest of us.)



In any case this has been an interesting discussion, but seems to be built upon speculation and 3rd party views. I wait to reserve my judgment until I play the game myself and I will make my own decisions on how I feel about it.

[BrianWilly]

So to sum up the argument...

-Zevran must not be bisexual, flamboyant, effeminate, or ethnic, or else the OP is offended.  Bisexuality, flamboyancy, effeminacy, and ethnicity to be judged at the OP's personal discretion, and not by any objective real-world criterion.

-If he is bisexual, then every other romanceable NPC must be bisexual, or else the OP is offended.  In the name of equality.

-The more well-rounded a character that Zevran is and the more that his backstory supports his personality, the more offended the OP is.  Any thought put into fleshing out any character who is not Alistair is considered exploitation.

-If Leliana does not fall in love with a woman as easily as she falls in love with a man, the OP is offended.  In the name of equality.

-If her ex was a woman instead of a man, the OP is offended.

-Zevran's trailer does not depict male sexuality as much as Morrigan's and Leliana's depict female sexuality in spite of all of them containing the exact same amount of sexual content because, in the OP's opinion, it just doesn't.

Did I miss anything?

Okay.

So why is anyone still bothering to respond to him?  This is one of the most obvious trolling efforts I've ever seen.   Any sort of marginally supportable rationale went out the door a long time ago.  There is no "Well, I sort of see where you're coming from" here.  If you sort of see where he's coming from then you haven't actually read his posts, [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] which contain exactly zero defensible logic despite being practically custom-designed to incite more reactions through empty semantics.  In other words, trolling.

Seriously, stop biting at his hook.  My only hope is that the devs know better than to take him seriously.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 01 novembre 2009 - 10:05 .

[Lucy Glitter]

A troll is someone who deliberately writes stupid and irritating things to upset others. The OP is just frustrated and venting... a very inappropriate way. Sorry, I am not defending anyone here, but I dislike it when people brush everything off as trolling.

[Varenus Luckmann]

KmAI wrote...

Your views on heterosexual males are the most biggoted, depressingly narrow scoped, perverse and simply put : stupid things I have ever seen. If all you see is some goonish caricature of some rapefaced neanderthal hunched over in dire masturbatory fury. Their tissue pasted hands slapping at the controller to pass through dialogue in the most expident manner to recieve pixelated boob. Why would games even attempt the subtext of a romance? Why is it that games like dead or alive beach volley ball and rumble roses tank? How is it that there is all of this is to pander to the straight audience when all they would need would be a "sex" button? You would think the games that include romance would be targeted to "niche" (and I don't seriously consider them niche) audiences like women and the LBGT community and therefor have no consideration for these horrible sex drunk pricks? 

Keeping in mind for lack of a quote, I mean the OP

These forums really need a reputation system. +8 for that. :happy:

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
A troll is someone who deliberately writes stupid and irritating things to upset others. The OP is just frustrated and venting... a very inappropriate way. Sorry, I am not defending anyone here, but I dislike it when people brush everything off as trolling.

I think most of us saw a troll somewhere already around page 3, not a poor, missunderstood and frustrated at the worlds oppression of sexual deviancy gay dude.

To clarify; I still see a troll.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 01 novembre 2009 - 12:34 .

[MrGOH]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

*snip*

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
A troll is someone who deliberately writes stupid and irritating things to upset others. The OP is just frustrated and venting... a very inappropriate way. Sorry, I am not defending anyone here, but I dislike it when people brush everything off as trolling.

I think most of us saw a troll somewhere already around page 3, not a poor, missunderstood and frustrated at the worlds oppression of sexual deviancy gay dude.

To clarify; I still see a troll.

Huh. Equating homosexuality with deviancy is pretty trollish, too. I suppose it does indeed take one to know one.

[allothernamesweretaken]

MrGOH wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

*snip*

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
A troll is someone who deliberately writes stupid and irritating things to upset others. The OP is just frustrated and venting... a very inappropriate way. Sorry, I am not defending anyone here, but I dislike it when people brush everything off as trolling.

I think most of us saw a troll somewhere already around page 3, not a poor, missunderstood and frustrated at the worlds oppression of sexual deviancy gay dude.

To clarify; I still see a troll.

Huh. Equating homosexuality with deviancy is pretty trollish, too. I suppose it does indeed take one to know one.

NO
STOP
WE ARE NOT OPENING THIS CAN OF WORMS.

[Kevin Lynch]

Keep it DA:O-specific, people, or the thread gets a lockdown. And no more links to the hacked walkthrough. Thanks.

[MrGOH]

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

MrGOH wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

*snip*

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
A troll is someone who deliberately writes stupid and irritating things to upset others. The OP is just frustrated and venting... a very inappropriate way. Sorry, I am not defending anyone here, but I dislike it when people brush everything off as trolling.

I think most of us saw a troll somewhere already around page 3, not a poor, missunderstood and frustrated at the worlds oppression of sexual deviancy gay dude.

To clarify; I still see a troll.

Huh. Equating homosexuality with deviancy is pretty trollish, too. I suppose it does indeed take one to know one.

NO
STOP
WE ARE NOT OPENING THIS CAN OF WORMS.

Let me fast forward:
Retort: Homosexuals are in the minority; by definition their behavior is deviant.
Response: That's just pedantic. The phrase sexual deviancy has heavy pejorative connotations that you obviously wanted to see deployed.
Retort: I stand by my statement.
Response: Sexual deviancy is also a term of art meaning deviance from healthy human behavior. Science has shown that homosexuality is not inherently any less healthy than heterosexuality or asexuality.
Retort: Here are some anecdotes littered with sarcasm. I am recalcitrant in my beliefs.
Response: You are a social deviant.
Retort: Takes one to know one.

*End Scene*