478 réponses à ce sujet

[BECC4]

KethWolfheart wrote...
Just to add this was also well put.  With the exception I would not say "a minority group that can't be pleased".  Please do not lump all GLBT folk in with the OP.

This is why I said please don't misinterpret, I don't think for a second that gay men are 'a minority group that can't be pleased' nor was it my intention to suggest so, only that there is a risk that complaints voiced in the manner of  the OP may lead others, ie developers, to think in such a manner, which lets face it would be a step back for what I hope is a relatively open-minded and inclusive community.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ub3r_ wrote...

why do homosexuals ALWAYS have to play victimized all the time, its frustrating, it causes misrepresentation and its always always the same whine. Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against anyone based on their sexual preference, what annoys me is when people scream so loud about what they are. Be thankful they even included an option, I'm sure you probably would have complained had there been no m/m relationships in the game, and I'm sure you would complain if you could have them with EVERY character. If sexual preference is such an issue for you, it think you should sort that out in your own space, and not criticize others because they ACTUALLY included you

If you consider the homosexual community a seperate culture to that of it's 'mother culture', a form of sub-culture, then a process of cultural victimization becomes very prominent in apperance. This is similar to how larger, more visible and pronounced cultures such as afro-american or jewish work.

[KethWolfheart]

BECC4 wrote...

KethWolfheart wrote...
Just to add this was also well put.  With the exception I would not say "a minority group that can't be pleased".  Please do not lump all GLBT folk in with the OP.

This is why I said please don't misinterpret, I don't think for a second that gay men are 'a minority group that can't be pleased' nor was it my intention to suggest so, only that there is a risk that complaints voiced in the manner of  the OP may lead others, ie developers, to think in such a manner, which lets face it would be a step back for what I hope is a relatively open-minded and inclusive community.

Sorry missed that :-)  Thanks for clarifying.  Your concern is also my own and many others.

[Sol Nox]

Okay, I've just read through this whole thread and it only gets worse and worse... (Kudos to those who've tried to bring light to it though).  I'm actually riled up.  And I know I probably shouldn't write in this mindframe but here we are.

TheDauntless wrote...

Imported, when I say I think of Zevran as a token offering I mean that he is a token offering by what he means to gay gamers. Whatever else he may be, I do not ignore the fact that he was selected because he is the male in the group who would be everybody's first guess is gay/bi because of stereotypical prejudices. BioWare bowed to the notion that the majority of gamers who are not gay would end up resisting the idea that a gay/bi male can't resemble somebody like Alistair. A human, athletic, masculine, white male. Witness how rare it is to see such an example in movies or TV. As in never. They're afraid it won't sell, but to me plenty of people in the other thread were open to the idea of Alistair being atypical.

Have you ever been to a club?  ...Or outside.  THAT IS THE STEREOTYPE.  And honestly, why would you bring up "white"?  Think of a gay.  Unless it's RuPaul chances are first thing that comes to mind is a white fella.  At least if you live in North America.  As an Egyptian, I for one love to see a little colour.  Especially when my part of the world gets to deal with crap like, "There's no gays in Iran."
Moving past race, so you don't like Zervan as an option.  That's life.  There's other's who'll love him.  Just like people's tastes in real-life - OMG, mo.  Go to an ice-cream store, they don't have your favourite flavour in stock - but other people like the optinos - what do you do?  What do you do?

There's also a problem with the fact that he is the only choice for male gay characters. Think of it this way. Gay gamers are being treated as second-class despite having interest and means to buy this game just like straight gamers, because we are not allowed to experience it to the extent that straight gamers can. The feeling that we lack equal choices and consideration is not one that I can easily overlook, but I can't speak for all gay gamers.

Well, you and I agree on one thing - you can't speak for all.
And for the love of whatever-you-belive-in.  Please stop playing the
victimized gay!  This is so borderline offensive, just...are you out of
your gacktd*mn mind?  It's like when people play the race card for
mindless BS that has not origins in race.  Worse: it trivializes the
rest of the demographic's concerns when they do have real ones.
Look at this thread!  Do you see what you've done?  It's led to some crazy things coming out of mouths (I'm referring to seeing generalizations about homosexuals as a whiny demographic and spoilt target market.  This has gotten batsh*t stupid.)

I'm assuming you are not from one. I'm beginning to understand what some people have stuck in their heads. Straight and gay not being equal. Remarkably that is also the same thought in my mind. Only coming from me, the idea is that it can be equal in the game world. Coming from most people in this thread, it would be too uncomfortable to think the gays can have it good too. I'm just not sure why that would be. Why would someone consciously trigger any gay content if they're straight?

I admit I'm interested in the F/F romance more than the M/M.  But here's the thing:  Do I have a preference of who I'd rather it be?  Sure.  Am I going to ****** and moan because I didn't get my way in a FICTIONAL story where the OPTONAL romance is only to enhace the game, not be the core?  No!
In short:   DA:O  is not a dating sim.  Deal with it.

[Sheryl Chee]

TheDauntless wrote...

He seems man-lier than Zevran. That's just me.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will in a sec. I just have to say that everytime someone says that Alistair seems manlier than Zevran. I laugh. Like this:      

[SnipeyMcGee]

This is by far one of the craziest threads I've ever read. I applaud Bioware for adding a gay/bi relationship, I believe that in a role-playing game you should be entitled to having romantic options of your sexual preference- so that it fits with your digital avatar and the character you want to be. But we do not have the game yet- and Zevran seems like a great character.

I don't see the issue.

Not making a character gay/bi might just have to do with the character, kind of like pouting because someone like... Oh, let's say Wynne  isn't romancable. If that's your thing, it might not be her thing. The game is not a sandbox, is a relatively non-linear game that has a story to tell and characters within. Alistair might not be open to that sexually as a character, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Just like how you can't shag everything in the game- some people just don't feel like shagging.

I don't see anything to do with EA or marketing or controversy or whatever crazy conspiracies you think might withold Alistair from being the one for your character, I just see it as story telling and setting up a character.

Also, allow me to echo previous posts with:
You're not buying Dragon Age because Alistair isn't romanceable the way you want him to? k. See ya.

Modifié par SnipeyMcGee, 29 octobre 2009 - 03:47 .

[_____o_O___]

Sheryl Chee wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

He seems man-lier than Zevran. That's just me.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will in a sec. I just have to say that everytime someone says that Alistair seems manlier than Zevran. I laugh. Like this:      

Thats nice. Would depend on what is considered manly I guess. Charging into battle  or slinking for a cowardly back stab.  Amongst many other ways to rate order of magnitude of manliness.

[_____o_O___]

imported_beer wrote...

I agree. IMO Zevran is manly. Alistair is BOYISH.

I think people are letting their Legolas iconography color their expectations of Zevran. 


Listen up people- If a writer is laughing at your "ZEV is effete" implications- you must consider the possibility that you may be entirely wrong.

Duncan, Sten, Oghren are manly. Zevvy and Ally are not manly.

Modifié par _____o_O___, 29 octobre 2009 - 03:53 .

[Knight of Flowers]

Sheryl Chee wrote...

TheDauntless wrote...

He seems man-lier than Zevran. That's just me.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I will in a sec. I just have to say that everytime someone says that Alistair seems manlier than Zevran. I laugh. Like this:      

But Sheryl, Zevran is an elf. Everyone knows elves can't be manly. They have pointy ears.

[pharos_gryphon]

I think the bigger issue for most folks with the Zevran hate is just that it seems a trifle stereotypical. From the spoilers released regarding his romance, it's a very no strings attached, platonic thing. Which, while fitting with the character, plays into that bigger stereotype towards homosexuals of promiscuity and lack of meaningful relationships. There's a difference between a bed warmer and an actual romance. Zevran just seems to be much the one and little the other.

[Arconi4n03]

imported_beer wrote...

_____o_O___ wrote...


Duncan, Sten, Oghren are manly. Zevvy and Ally are not manly.

Are you equating manliness with subhuman intelligence, bad personal hygiene,  pointless emo aggression or extreme religiosity ? You seem to be.

Duncan- well if you read The Calling you wouldn't be so quick to annoit him.. He was young once. And supremely silly. He is just responsible now. How that is "manly" I don't know given that your other two examples are strange as hell.

If I have my terminology right he seems to be talking about *looks through his notes* ...power tops? Whateva tha flip that means

Modifié par Arconi4n03, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:09 .

[David Gaider]

I get that Zevran may not be to everyone's tastes, straight or gay. That's hardly news. Every character is going to have their supporters and detractors, both before and after they play the game -- those who revile them and can't understand how *anyone* likes them, as well as those who adore them and fight the haters.



Or you could have apathy, I guess, where nobody really cares. I'm not sure that's better.



How one could come to the opinion that Zevran is a... what was the word? A throwaway gay character? That we just kind of anointed him gay at the last minute because we were afraid to make another character the option? Yeah... no. I don't really have much to say on that point except that Zevran was conceived of this way right from the beginning. If someone wants to claim discimination because they didn't get the option they wanted, then so be it.



As for those who think Zevran is a stereotype, I guess I can kind of see that although I suspect people are drawing lines for themselves based mostly on his appearance. I'd say he's far more flamboyant than he is effeminate, and if the assertion is that a gay/bi character can\\t be flamboyant without also being a bad stereotype -- well, at that point I'll just let the character speak for himself in the game. I'm proud of how he ended up, and those who have played the romance so far rather adore him.



I see this as inclusion rather than discrimination, but certainly people are free to draw whatever conclusions they will. Sorry for those who aren't satisfied; I hope you like what's actually there when (and if) you play the game.

[Eshaye]

I can kind of see the disappointment of having Zevran as the gay/bi option being obvious, and yes it does seem like stereotypes may have been used. However if this game is as epic as it's made out to be, if David Gaider put as much thought and love into this story as he has in the novels, and I think he has from his comments, Zevran whether his looks are typical or not should be a fantastic lover/companion for both sexes.



I do understand not liking a certain NPC on a personal level, for example Kaidan and Carth Onasi are a bit too boy scouty for me to really love, but they were cute and fun and that's that. However they are NO Gann of Dreams let me just say that... And I am totally aware it's because I have a fondness for effiminate poetic dreamer types, which is why Zevran is probably going to be a delicious romance for me... He's not for everyone but some of us do and will appreciate him.



I guess what I'm saying is even though your romance option isn't what YOU would have made it to be, that shouldn't ruin the entire gaming experience. Carth Onasi got on my nerves more then a few times, it didn't stop me from finishing KOTOR. ;D

[SonvarTheMighty]

@OP

I can't agree with your viewpoint at all and this appears to be more trolling than anything. No matter how it was implemented there were going to be complaints. I know a lot were hoping for Alistair but oh well.

[Razcalking1978]

I agree with the OP. Hopefully next time BioWare will not include any M/M relationships at all to completely avoid the possibility of picking the wrong "type" that every homosexual male will prefer.

And hey, as a bonus they won't have to deal with the conservative lobbyist groups. Shame on them for sticking their necks out like that.

And on a similar note, how dare they not include Wynne as a romanceable option? BioWare has shown themselves to be ageist yet again. What about the senior citizen player who wants his ancient nookie?

Modifié par Razcalking1978, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:28 .

[Gaviteros]

frano1 wrote...

the thing is we live in democracy(is it good or bad is open for a debate,are kings better?..in democracy you always live in normal mediocrciity...in kingdom you can have great king and live great and his idiotic son can ruin everything...and you die:D)...but we live in democracy...and democracy is all about rule of majority and making things that benefits that majority...

Technically we live (The United States) in a representative democracy or republic. So pluralism is a huge part of the American political system, but honestly that isn't even the point.

Thanks Mr. Gaider for speaking on the subject because I was growing tired of reading the same argument and counter argument for three pages rehashed.

I offer a hypothetical situation for everyone.
There is a bisexual man.
There is a heterosexual man.
There is another heterosexual man.
There is a heterosexual woman.
There is a heterosexual who may be bi-curious woman.
There is another heterosexual woman.

You are a woman: you can date all three men if they like you. One naturally doesn't. The bi-curious woman may be an option, but who knows?
You are a man: you can date both women if they like you. One naturally doesn't. The bisexual man may be an option, who knows?

There is a point here ^ and it falls with the one that naturally doesn't like you. People don't like everyone romantically. It isn't the way the world works.

Replace those above options with names.

There is Zevran
There is Alistair
There is Sten
There is Lelianne
There is Morrigan
There is Wynne

Oh look! Two of those just don't like you. Doesn't really matter why... they don't.
So you are a homosexual who likes Alistair, well he doesn't really like you that way. Sucks doesn't it? It happens in life a lot. You are a woman who likes Lelianne (Who knows, maybe she is bi- I haven't read those spoilers.) Point is that she may not like you back. It happens.
 
Mr. Gaider here has created characters not digital sex toys for you to get off too. Characters have beliefs, views, lusts, likes, dislikes, favorites, desires, personalities, etcetera. Just as easily it could have happened that none of the characters are open to homosexual relationships and that would have been just as realistic. Because they are narrative based story characters- what they like and want is up to the author, not the viewer.

I understand frustration at not being able to 'get with' the guy you like, but my best friend back home is bi-sexual and he is just as frustrated (in reality) at not being able to get with his guy crush who is straight back home. It happens.

From an industry standpoint this would be a major breakthrough at anyrate, but it is done for the characters not the fans, and if it was done for the fans then yes I think you would have a point: but the point wouldn't be about which one they chose, it would be for creating characters for sales alone.

Sure, everything that goes into a character is no doubt talked about from a sales standpoint, but it still has to work with the character.
So instead of getting angry that there is an aspect of life alluded to in your video game, notice how it is including life, then get over it.

[Maufurtado]

I wonder...

Is that going to stop anyone from buying the game? Really?

It is something radical for such detail. Let's consider the past: Even a mature rated game wouldn't even consider a homossexual relationship. I think, there was an advancement in recent years.

To close your eyes to that and then complain about how 'unfair' things are now it's kinda hypocritical. Let's face it: In the game's context - Medieval age of sorts - a M/M relationship being discussed so openly is surprising.

To the players that think M/M relationships shouldn't exist in games, I'm sorry to say, but you have accept that this kind of narrow minded vision doesn't work anymore.

And, finally, it's there. It's done. What's point of complaining now?

Modifié par Maufurtado, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:39 .

[aidron]

I must say that I am not personally as intrigued by the romances after reading the article 'Sex and the Single Dragon Age hero', but that's one person's interpretation of the article and it may not necessarily coincide with my own perceptions once I get the game. As such, I try to maintain an open mind.

Furthermore, I do dislike that Zevran seems only interested in an open relationship. Then again, who says you have to pursue an open relationship? Perhaps you can just romance him and that will change the course of things in the game.

He does seem to come across as being less masculine than the PC and I would have preferred an option for the roles to be reversed. The key word there is 'option' as I storngly believe that NPCs should be fluid and adaptive to the PC to a great degree since each playthrough and each player will be different and letting the world conform to them and their character more than it appears they do now increases the fun in my opinion.

Still, Zevran seems like a wonderfully interesting character. I too would have preferred Alistair (like I've said before, I adore goof balls and Alistair is eerily similar to my own boyfriend). I may not romance Zevran, but then again I may. Again, trying to keep an open mind and at least give things a chance.

But flipping out like this? Insane.

And this is from a fellow queer who may just create a female PC so I can have my Alistair lovin'.

[TheDauntless]

OMG I think I have the answer! all the guy's in DA should be gay! are you serious bro? Romances arent the only part to this game, other's have pointed this out already

K.

You can think whatever you want about the meaning behind my words. Although, the circumstance you describe is something even I don't realistically expect, so it is not something I proactively ask for.

I've read some posters mention their disappointment that other members of the party are unavailable. I have not been advocating for any of them to be included, but I would not be opposed if they were and I would not be upset with anyone who goes down that route with them. In that situation we would all have more choices but personally I would not be exploring all of them. It would be wonderful if BioWare were to go so far in considering its players and I would support such a gesture, or even the argument to include one. Having said that, I think it would be best to leave out the dog.

Would it be a stretch for BioWare, or modders as someone mentioned, to overcome the "logistics" of making the dwarf and the giant amenable to the PC's charms? I'm guessing the graphics wouldn't be the problem as much as the lack of spoken dialogue to work with. In Alistair's case however, the exclusion does not feel right when the non-gender-specific words and the animation are very likely to be in place.

Have you ever been to a club?  ...Or outside.  THAT IS THE STEREOTYPE.  And honestly, why would you bring up "white"?  Think of a gay.  Unless it's RuPaul chances are first thing that comes to mind is a white fella.  At least if you live in North America.  As an Egyptian, I for one love to see a little colour.

I haven't been to Egypt. You're suggesting the community at your end is very uniform on one hand, but with the other labeling it as the dominant portrayal to be favored. If you prefer the stereotype and if non-white skin color is your one and only requirement then I can understand why you're very grateful that Zevran is yours. Hi, I'm Chinese. I don't demand a Chinese party member. Gay or straight. The reason I mention Alistair being white, along with his other attributes such as his resemblance to a jock, is to contrast what he stands for right now as opposed to what most people here cannot hold in their minds to grasp my train of thought. He is white and athletic and for that he will remain free of any minority hindrances because LGBT representation in BioWare games have never been allowed to take on the face of someone who is a risky move.

There's nothing wrong with adding Zevran. There is something wrong with having only just Zevran. There is something worse about the fact that Zevran's status only came to be because he was their easy choice that a vocal segment of straight gamers could tolerate.

Never fear, I can walk people through it again: BioWare had the means to extend equal treatment to gay gamers by adding an atypical representation of a gay/bi male into the mix alongside the stereotypical one. But given what I know about KOTOR, JE, and ME this "inclusion" is not a baby step. Those were baby steps. This is being rooted with no progress.

I agree with the OP. Hopefully next time BioWare will not include any
M/M relationships at all to completely avoid the possibility of picking
the wrong "type" that every homosexual male will prefer.

I agree with you. When sticking to one gay/bi character and one tranny in the background to represent the male LGBT population, do it better or don't do it at all. I expect ME2 & ME3 to avoid it altogether just like the original so I will approach them with no hangup over this subject.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:55 .

[Gaviteros]

@TheDauntless: read the Writer's (David Gaider) response again, then get over it. You have made your point: been heard in the best way you can and made your perspective known to the person who writes the characters this way.

You have gotten your response, and now you are done with it.

Hurrah one and all.

Modifié par Gaviteros, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:44 .

[Deviija]

I'm very happy and grateful for the inclusion of same-sex romances (particular m/m). But I am certain that most, if not all the devs, know that by now.



And thank you, Mr. Gaider, for taking the time out to post. It was very nice to just have that to read. As always, I am reserving any real opinions and like/dislike until I have played the actual game and interacted with all these characters. It is too premature for judgements.

[Arconi4n03]

imported_beer wrote...
 And that magic bosom .

What is this about a magic bosom, I am both intruiged and aprehensive...Does it shoot lazers?