478 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Holy crap I think I just totally misread her post...I'm sorry

That's quite alright. You are forgiven

[JEBesh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Thank you. 90% of the complaints on this board are from straight people. 90% of the complaints about romances are from straight people. This is not because straight people are all victims any more than this thread exists because gays are all victims; it's because people love to complain on message boards.

While we're making points with wild shots in the dark and inaccurate percentages, that's actually because 90% of the people on this board are straight people.

At any rate, I don't see how including a M/M romance in the first place is a cop out in any way. All in-jokes about Zevran being a spicy salsa and David's sequin wardrobe aside, I really don't see how he's effeminate.

Modifié par JEBesh, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:35 .

[Nivraym]

I have no idea where is all the hate coming from.

Zevran, Sten and Morrigan are the manliest members of the team.

Goody two-shoes semi-paladin guys hiding their pains behind various layers are overrated.

As much as I like Alistair, he doesn't seem very interesting compared to our elven assassin.

That said, you should be grateful you have any option at all.

[Maria Caliban]

JEBesh wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Thank you. 90% of the complaints on this board are from straight people. 90% of the complaints about romances are from straight people. This is not because straight people are all victims any more than this thread exists because gays are all victims; it's because people love to complain on message boards.

While we're making points with wild shots in the dark and inaccurate percentages, that's actually because 90% of the people on this board are straight people.

Yes. That 90% of the people on this board are straight is kinda my point.

I don't think that percentage is a 'wild shot in the dark.' Queer people make up ~10% of the total population and unlike gender, there's little evidence that sexual orientation influences one's interest in games.

[JEBesh]

It was a wild shot in the dark, however accurate it may have been. I picked a number that sounded big. It may even be bigger.

[SnowHeart1]

Everyone has their type or types. Gay guy or straight gal, Zevran might be your type, or he might not. When I first saw the Zevran reveal and learned about this background, I immediately figured he was going to be a M/M romance option (assuming one was available at all). Not because he was an elf or flamboyant (I disagree that he's effeminate), but because he grew up in a brothel where the inhibitions about sex are broken down. Was I a little disappointed at first? Sure... as folks have said, one way to look at this is the "easy" way. Personally, I find Alistair a bit more my "type"... cute, metro, witty/sarcastic, etc. But, I don't think Zevran is a cop-out nor a stereotype. He just might not be your type.

[bd223437]

frano1 wrote...

and for all you gay ppl somewhere here look at this and stop complaining..i think this is enough:D

bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/sex-and-the-single-dragon-age-hero.html

This article really illustrates why I personally would have preferred the option not be Zevran.  Yes, to a degree there is promiscuity in any community, but this reinforces the idea that same sex oriented individuals are more likely to be promiscuous than other groups.  People can say not to take this game as social commentary, but unfortunately whether we intend to or not it is acting as such.  It is exposing people to experiences with different groups that they might not normally interact with and establishing more firmly the stereotype of the promiscuous bisexual male.  From the pieces of the character creator file that I've read, Alistair would not have been as likely to behave like this.  I am grateful that this option exists in the game.  It is a big step, even within the company of Bioware given that Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are not even allowing this in due to "time constraints" (the first time I could believe it due to forging completely new territory, the second time doesn't hold water).  I just wish more thought would have been put in to creating a positive same sex oriented representative. 

To the original poster, I still urge you to consider purchasing the game.  Yes, Zevran was an all too obvious choice, and perhaps, in hindsight, not the best figure head for a same sex oriented character, but he is there.  Showing support for this feature reinforces that we would like to see it again in the future, perhaps with greater consideration to details such as avoiding overly stereotyped behavior.

[SnowHeart1]

bd223437 wrote...

frano1 wrote...

and for all you gay ppl somewhere here look at this and stop complaining..i think this is enough:D

bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/sex-and-the-single-dragon-age-hero.html

This article really illustrates why I personally would have preferred the option not be Zevran.  Yes, to a degree there is promiscuity in any community, but this reinforces the idea that same sex oriented individuals are more likely to be promiscuous than other groups

You might have missed it, but Sheryl said earlier that the article's author may have gotten the wrong impression.  A "monogomous" relationship with Zevran is apparently quite possible; just might take a little longer.

[BECC4]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

bd223437 wrote...

frano1 wrote...

and for all you gay ppl somewhere here look at this and stop complaining..i think this is enough:D

bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/sex-and-the-single-dragon-age-hero.html

This article really illustrates why I personally would have preferred the option not be Zevran.  Yes, to a degree there is promiscuity in any community, but this reinforces the idea that same sex oriented individuals are more likely to be promiscuous than other groups

You might have missed it, but Sheryl said earlier that the article's author may have gotten the wrong impression.  A "monogomous" relationship with Zevran is apparently quite possible; just might take a little longer.

In fact if you think about it, it makes sense that a deeper relationship with Zevran might take longer to get going, nothing to do with him being a gay romance option, more because he's an assassin, can't imagine someone in that line of work trusting you enough to open up emotionally without a lot of effort. 

[bd223437]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

bd223437 wrote...

frano1 wrote...

and for all you gay ppl somewhere here look at this and stop complaining..i think this is enough:D

bitmob.com/index.php/mobfeed/sex-and-the-single-dragon-age-hero.html

This article really illustrates why I personally would have preferred the option not be Zevran.  Yes, to a degree there is promiscuity in any community, but this reinforces the idea that same sex oriented individuals are more likely to be promiscuous than other groups

You might have missed it, but Sheryl said earlier that the article's author may have gotten the wrong impression.  A "monogomous" relationship with Zevran is apparently quite possible; just might take a little longer.

I saw that she posted it, but I don't think it settled my nerves on the situation enough.  I am hoping after an actual play through I could agree, but if the author of that article didn't find it apparent I am not entirely convinced that the rest of the population is going to find it that obvious either without going in with the expectation generated by Ms. Chee.

[mrmoneda]

bd223437 wrote...

This article really illustrates why I personally would have preferred the option not be Zevran.  Yes, to a degree there is promiscuity in any community, but this reinforces the idea that same sex oriented individuals are more likely to be promiscuous than other groups.  People can say not to take this game as social commentary, but unfortunately whether we intend to or not it is acting as such.  It is exposing people to experiences with different groups that they might not normally interact with and establishing more firmly the stereotype of the promiscuous bisexual male.  From the pieces of the character creator file that I've read, Alistair would not have been as likely to behave like this.  I am grateful that this option exists in the game.  It is a big step, even within the company of Bioware given that Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are not even allowing this in due to "time constraints" (the first time I could believe it due to forging completely new territory, the second time doesn't hold water).  I just wish more thought would have been put in to creating a positive same sex oriented representative. 

Did you miss the portion of the article that explained that when you slept with either of the female options (goin' totally hetero) and then simply apologized to the other they'd forgive you basically without consequence?

Back at camp, I chat (and more) with Zevran again, and this time,
finally, Leliana gets pissed and rolls out the 'him or me' talk. I say
I'm sorry, and we live happily, frustratedly ever after.

What, exactly, does that say about heterosexual women?

Absolutely nothing, which is what I think any of the other options says about anyone else in the real world.

[SnowHeart1]

bd223437 wrote...

I saw that she posted it, but I don't think it settled my nerves on the situation enough.  I am hoping after an actual play through I could agree, but if the author of that article didn't find it apparent I am not entirely convinced that the rest of the population is going to find it that obvious either without going in with the expectation generated by Ms. Chee.

Ah.  I understand your point.  I don't necessarily disagree -- for those who don't look any deeper it may simply confirm a stereotype -- but I don't think it would be consistent with Zevran's background/character as we currently understand it.  "Okay, the man-[prostitute] is totally into monogamy... what!?" 

Bioware has always said it may include the same-sex romance if it makes sense for the character.  To simply move that around in a way that doesn't entirely make sense with the character would, to my mind, be even more cheap, because then it would mean Bioware was being PC for the sake of being PC.

I hope those who have concerns about it will be pleasantly surprised when they actually play through the romance.  (And, conversely, I hope I'm not disappointed.)

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:49 .

[bd223437]

mrmoneda wrote...

bd223437 wrote...

Did you miss the portion of the article that explained that when you slept with either of the female options (goin' totally hetero) and then simply apologized to the other they'd forgive you basically without consequence?

Back at camp, I chat (and more) with Zevran again, and this time,
finally, Leliana gets pissed and rolls out the 'him or me' talk. I say
I'm sorry, and we live happily, frustratedly ever after.

What, exactly, does that say about heterosexual women?

Absolutely nothing, which is what I think any of the other options says about anyone else in the real world.

I did not miss that portion.  Though the PC being of dubious moral fortitude in that particular playthrough is not really the topic.  I'd also argue that Hillary Clinton did more to damage the "don't forgive him for cheating" argument than Dragon Age could hope to (not that I don't like Hillary Clinton or think that she is in any way limited to the role of a VERY forgiving wife she was simply a very visible and accessable example of this behavior).

[mrmoneda]

bd223437 wrote...

Though the PC being of dubious moral fortitude in that particular playthrough is not really the topic.

The topic being the development of the PC's relationship with Zevran in that particular playthrough? 'Cause if that's not the topic then your suggestion that Zevran's behavior in that particular playthrough is evidence of some kind of fault seems out of place. I think both comments are on topic, though my opinion on which is more revelatory probably differs from yours.

[Lord Niah]

TheDauntless wrote...

This is the thread I was alluding to at the start. http://social.biowar...x/43847/1#43847 If it hadn't derailed before I logged in my post would've gone in there.

Imported, when I say I think of Zevran as a token offering I mean that he is a token offering by what he means to gay gamers. Whatever else he may be, I do not ignore the fact that he was selected because he is the male in the group who would be everybody's first guess is gay/bi because of stereotypical prejudices. BioWare bowed to the notion that the majority of gamers who are not gay would end up resisting the idea that a gay/bi male can't resemble somebody like Alistair. A human, athletic, masculine, white male. Witness how rare it is to see such an example in movies or TV. As in never. They're afraid it won't sell, but to me plenty of people in the other thread were open to the idea of Alistair being atypical.

There's also a problem with the fact that he is the only choice for male gay characters. Think of it this way. Gay gamers are being treated as second-class despite having interest and means to buy this game just like straight gamers, because we are not allowed to experience it to the extent that straight gamers can. The feeling that we lack equal choices and consideration is not one that I can easily overlook, but I can't speak for all gay gamers.

Good luck waiting for a game that caters exclusively to gay men? I
don't really see your point in arguing you are being treated as a tiny
minority...when you are coming from a tiny minority. Seems you must get
disappointed often if that's the case.

I'm assuming you are not from one. I'm beginning to understand what some people have stuck in their heads. Straight and gay not being equal. Remarkably that is also the same thought in my mind. Only coming from me, the idea is that it can be equal in the game world. Coming from most people in this thread, it would be too uncomfortable to think the gays can have it good too. I'm just not sure why that would be. Why would someone consciously trigger any gay content if they're straight?

I get it.  You aren't upset about the lack of homosexual romances, you are upset about the stereotype.  I agree.  Maybe you are more like Alistar but you are also gay.  So you don't like people constantly stereotyping you as some kind of sissy when you are not.  I also find some stereotypes offensive.  For instance, that dyslexic people are all stupid and cannot read.  I am dyslexic, yet my major was in English Literature and I graduated with honors.  I just read a little slower and sometimes words get mixed up.   I also love the arts. This is not very macho and many guys consider this to be positive proof that you are homosexual.  I always thought homosexuality was just about sexual preference?  Am I missing something?   

But the real issue is this: are you going to miss out on a great game like Dragon Age just because of one little stereotype in the game?  I wouldn't.

[Pink_Moon]

Frankly, if you're playing Dragon Age Origins for the romantic aspects of it alone, you need to get a life.

[aidron]

Pink_Moon wrote...

Frankly, if you're playing Dragon Age Origins for the romantic aspects of it alone, you need to get a life.

Or maybe Alistair and Zevran are just so awesome that they have the power to increase sales?

[Varenus Luckmann]

In other words: If you don't want stereotypes, why are you acting like such a goddamn sissy?

[Tankenminnet]

^
lol

Way to overreact. The game isn't about the sex after all, right? Eh? See it as something optional. Or perhaps you know.

Modifié par Tankenminnet, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:27 .

[bd223437]

mrmoneda wrote...

bd223437 wrote...

Though the PC being of dubious moral fortitude in that particular playthrough is not really the topic.

The topic being the development of the PC's relationship with Zevran in that particular playthrough? 'Cause if that's not the topic then your suggestion that Zevran's behavior in that particular playthrough is evidence of some kind of fault seems out of place. I think both comments are on topic, though my opinion on which is more revelatory probably differs from yours.

As far as I'm aware from the orginal post, the topic is about a potential player's disinterest in Zevran as the
obvious choice.  My suggestion of Zevran seeming to be uninterested in a monogamous relationship does go back to him being a bit more obvious or stereotypical choice and not a particularly strong representative
image of same sex attracted individuals.  This argument then supports the original poster's suggestion of Zevran being "obvious" and potentially a weaker choice as a representative. 

The PC also being bisexual and uninterested in monogamay as demonstrated by entertaining
all three romances also furthers this point that media is representing same sex interested individuals as promiscuous, but again, we are particularly interested in Zevran's behavior with regard to the PC.  So I would in fact disagree that finding fault with Zevran is not out of place and that discussing his behavior regarding monogamy that has been revealed in that interview is in line with the present topic.  I readily admit this is extremely limited due to the fact that we have only one example to draw from. 

I would further argue that the statement about the forgiving nature of women just furthers the idea that stereotypes abound in this game.  This is not to say that is a particularly bad thing, stereotypes exist in many forms for many reasons, but the over reliance on them in this particular case has lead at least the original poster to become disinterested in the game.  Therefore, together, we have illustrated reasons to be mildly contentious towards particular characters as they fulfill stereotypes.  This statement would be made with the understanding that in small amounts it is a necessary evil in order to establish archetypes necessary to be broadly appealing, but carried to an extreme may give the appearance of being overly restricted with a bias toward negative attributes.  The latter may in fact be the case regarding Zevrans interest in sex, but not monogamy at that point when other characters have expressed an interest in both equally.

Modifié par bd223437, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:32 .

[Sol Nox]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

In other words: If you don't want stereotypes, why are you acting like such a goddamn sissy?

You have also been added to my list of Favourite People of the Moment.

Modifié par ColeMR, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:41 .

[CJohnJones]

How to roleplay a gay character who does not think Zevran is attractive:



1. Play normally. The world is falling down around your ears and your jollies probably come second.



2. Reject Zevran's advances.



3. Live in the very realistic world where there are hot people around that you can't have.

[fairandbalancedfan]

imported_beer wrote...

_____o_O___ wrote...


Duncan, Sten, Oghren are manly. Zevvy and Ally are not manly.

Are you equating manliness with subhuman intelligence, bad personal hygiene,  pointless emo aggression or extreme religiosity ? You seem to be.

Duncan- well if you read The Calling you wouldn't be so quick to annoit him.. He was young once. And supremely silly. He is just responsible now. How that is "manly" I don't know given that your other two examples are strange as hell.

He seems to be confusing racking up body counts and violence with manliness. In my experience Men like to say they love violence. But most of them are not fans of it , if it happens in real life. Most of the tussles Men get involved in are push and shoves. But yes, there are some who likes to indulge in meaningless violence, and they are not heading for a happy place. Well thats enough off topic ranting.

[Saurel]

JEBesh wrote...

I really don't see how he's effeminate.

One word: Elf

Modifié par Saurel, 29 octobre 2009 - 10:05 .