478 réponses à ce sujet

[Varenus Luckmann]

Saurel wrote...

JEBesh wrote...

I really don't see how he's effeminate.

One word: Elf

[TheDauntless]

Your argument seems to be ‘non-humans can’t be white,’ which seems to clash with a great deal of science fiction and fantasy. One wonders why they’ve never considered any black men for the role of Superman or Legolas.

My argument has been that white humans are not allowed to be gay/bi in BioWare games.

I do not really understand the Elf = Effeminate conclusion myself. More feminine than humans in what we have come to understand as the norm for the fantasy genre? Perhaps. Legolas certainly did not strike me as feminine in the LOTR movies.

It stems from a semi-common tendency for the public to ridicule elven male characters for having qualities which sometimes are not aligned with the attributes that men in western society are typically rewarded for having. Specifically, being born a certain way affects one's appearance and to a degree, one's habits and preferences.

To the original poster, I still urge you to consider purchasing the game.  Yes, Zevran was an all too obvious choice, and perhaps, in hindsight, not the best figure head for a same sex oriented character, but he is there.  Showing support for this feature reinforces that we would like to see it again in the future, perhaps with greater consideration to details such as avoiding overly stereotyped behavior.

Well, I had been looking forward to DA. That was bolstered early this year by one of the writers' (first name "Mary") response to my question of if the wedding origin for city elves would lock the PC into heterosexual status. She said that it wouldn't because the wedding was arranged. I chose to see that in the best light possible. She had to leave out details because the time was not right for certain spoilers, so I anticipated DA with guarded hopes until now. I may have mentioned this before, but the gore and the quality of the graphics repel me. Great storytelling alone won't cut it at this point.

I have faith that BioWare has created another triumphant epic as far as the bigger picture is concerned. In spite of my love for past BioWare stories I cannot ignore the feeling of being a secondary concern because their games remind me throughout playtime that I don't get to have the guy the way that straight gamers usually get to have the guy or the girl. It has taken this long for this aspect of Zevran to be revealed, whereas it is clear early on that both male and female straight PCs are given "equal" treatment insofar as the quantity of their romantic choices. To those who would argue against an equal sharing of gay options in this area, keep in mind that most of us assume the extras are cast as straight, don't we? If that were not the case and gay couplings were seen as commonly as straight pairings then surely the dwarven tranvestite would not have been singled out in reviews for "inclusion." Personally, I do not need the background npcs to be gay or straight in particular because my stance is that if Alistair(or even the dwarf or giant henchmen at this point) were included for M/M such a move alone would speak well for BioWare's inclusiveness as opposed to the cop-out.

I'd be paying the same price for a product that promises more immersion for most other people. Past BioWare games proved that these half-measures are their customary practice. The companions are a major force in BioWare games. Their roles, abilities, and attitudes are always my first interest whenever I hear about new ones. But I'm of the opinion that the use of Zevran is a barely-tolerated concession to gay gamers just to claim the illusion of "diversity." I find no reason to feel gratified for something given by those who still misunderstand it is not good enough to settle, especially when there is money involved. I believe it is BioWare's official motto that they approach sex/romances with "taste and maturity." Perhaps Zevran is a major hero/villain and his romantic encounters are well-written and acted. Making him the sole choice for a segment of the gamers is not very tasteful or mature. Regardless of the quality, I'm quite sure his encounters will be interchangeable with respect to both male and female PCs. Princess, Sky, and Liara were bisexual characters who all behaved the same way no matter what the PC's gender was. In that I found nothing wrong. If it's good for a straight PC then it's good for a gay PC. If it's bad for one, it's bad for the other one too. Bu with that in mind, it is unacceptable that BioWare chose not to extend that to Alistair.

Bioware has always said it may include the same-sex romance if it makes sense for the character.  To simply move that around in a way that doesn't entirely make sense with the character would, to my mind, be even more cheap, because then it would mean Bioware was being PC for the sake of being PC.

One thing to remember is that none of the gay/bi characters which have come before in BioWare games were allowed to be exclusively gay. You are in fact onto something here. Juhani cannot be counted because her one line of affection was not even intended to be part of KOTOR, and to this day I believe there are disagreements within fandom and within BioWare as to her status. If people insist on including her, ask yourselves how that line alone, with no official sanction from BioWare, can possibly denote a full-fledged gay character whose sexuality stood equal with everyone else's.

As for Princess and Sky, both of them were clearly bisexual. Dawn Star definitely liked males, and because I can't remember for sure if she also liked females either way she was not exclusively gay. Do I have Dawn Star and Princess mixed up? I'm sorry, I just remembered they were both equally annoying.

Liara = omnisexual.

You mentioned it yourself. BioWare may "include the same-sex romance if it makes sense for the character." That means, straight is default to them if those characters above are any indication. Exclude Juhani because BioWare's intention was to exclude her sexuality. Their criteria to allow a character to be gay by going bisexual follows certain rules: They must be in the minority of choices. They must not be white. They are preferrably aliens. The females must appeal to straight males. The males must appeal to straight females. They must always be willing to engage in heterosexuality. The appeals portion is not 100%, but the majority is sufficient to sway BioWare.

I have to ask, where can I spot the indicators that suggest gay gamers were respectfully considered in the process?

Modifié par TheDauntless, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:07 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

!!!!!Spoiler!!!!!





Dog is also gay.





!!!!!End Spoilers!!!!!!





As someone who has had a few gay or lesbian friends in my life, I don't see an issue in this content being in the game. That out of the way, I do agree with the OP in a personal opinion that Zevran does come across as sort of the most likely suspect for being bisexual. It would of been more interesting for Alistair to be that option and hell, I might of even been interested in hearing the story as to why Alistair would go that route. For Zevran, it's not much of a mystery. He was raised by ****s and likely has no sexual stigmas. It's not very daring a story though another poster did make a point that having any kind of Male/Male romance is pretty daring for a video game company, just like the Female/Alien-femalesque romance in Mass Effect was pretty daring. I'm not bothered by it, and I applaud Bioware for being daring. I even applaud EA for allowing that since they can take alot of flak from people too.



I don't know where I was going with this post...hmm. Oh, yes, Dog is gay and likes long walks on the beach. If you don't like it, don't pursue the dialogue options leading to it. It's that simple.

[Arconi4n03]

TheDauntless wrote...

Your argument seems to be ‘non-humans can’t be white,’ which seems to clash with a great deal of science fiction and fantasy. One wonders why they’ve never considered any black men for the role of Superman or Legolas.

My argument has been that white humans are not allowed to be gay/bi in BioWare games.

Will you be playing a white, gay human?

If so...problem solved

[Maria Caliban]

bd223437 wrote...

The PC also being bisexual and uninterested in monogamay as demonstrated by entertaining all three romances also furthers this point that media is representing same sex interested individuals as promiscuous..

What about the PC being heterosexual, sleeping with Morrigan and immedately running off to see if Leliana would react? We've also seen that. When it comes to romances, reviewers tend to run around and screw everything they can.

TheDauntless wrote...

Your argument seems to be ‘non-humans can’t be white,’ which seems to clash with a great deal of science fiction and fantasy. One wonders why they’ve never considered any black men for the role of Superman or Legolas.

My argument has been that white humans are not allowed to be gay/bi in BioWare games.

Morrigan and Leliana are both white and human. We know there's a f/f romance and it's one of the two.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:05 .

[Deviija]

I thought technically Morrigan wasn't completely human, though?

[TheDauntless]

Will you be playing a white, gay human?

If so...problem solved

I won't be playing DA, though.

Morrigan and Leliana are both white and human. We know there's a f/f romance and it's one of the two.

You're right, they have "progressed." Can you tell me if one of them is gay? They both like men, even if one or both of them like women too. Which one is a lesbian?

Zevran has been with women and still likes women. Is he made specifically for the gay gamer?

[Red Viking]

Deviija wrote...

I thought technically Morrigan wasn't completely human, though?

That's speculation, at this point.

[Arconi4n03]

TheDauntless wrote...

Will you be playing a white, gay human?

If so...problem solved

I won't be playing DA, though.

Then why complain...it won't affect you in any way. Goodbye^_^

[Lady Catastrophe]

TheDauntless wrote...
I won't be playing DA, though.

Then this thread is completely and utterly pointless?

[aidron]

TheDauntless wrote...

Will you be playing a white, gay human?

If so...problem solved

I won't be playing DA, though.

Morrigan and Leliana are both white and human. We know there's a f/f romance and it's one of the two.

You're right, they have "progressed." Can you tell me if one of them is gay? They both like men, even if one or both of them like women too. Which one is a lesbian?

Zevran has been with women and still likes women. Is he made specifically for the gay gamer?

Do they need to be specifically gay?

I'm of the mindset that what goes on in someone else's game does not affect me. If, for example, Zevran is straight in their game and gay in mine, I do not care. I firmly believe that in instances like this, NPCs should fully be subjective (which means every NPC would be better off bisexual in most cases) so as to give players the most freedom and the most options, hopefully followed up by the most fun possible.

I do not believe there needs to be an NPC who is designed as being 100% gay to appease me, a gay gamer. I would have loved if all the NPCs in DA: O were bisexual, but they're not and there is nothing I can really do about it. If someone wants to mod that, I'd love them to death. Outside of that, I just do not see the point in focusing on this in such a negative way.

[Maria Caliban]

TheDauntless wrote...

You're right, they have "progressed." Can you tell me if one of them is gay? They both like men, even if one or both of them like women too. Which one is a lesbian?

Zevran has been with women and still likes women. Is he made specifically for the gay gamer?

Zevran was written specifically to be bisexual, and I believe the f/f romance will be the same. At this time, we don't know if it's Morrigan or Leliana.

No, there are no NPCs made specifically for the gay gamer. I'd argue there are no NPCs made specifically for the straight gamer.

[Ailith Tycane]

Deviija wrote...

I thought technically Morrigan wasn't completely human, though?

Splitting hairs, splitting hairs

I'd like to add something to the problem people have with gay men being illustarted as more promiscuous. Have you ever talked to a gay man? Have you ever been to a male gay club? Hell, have you ever watched Queer as folk? obviously not all gay men sleep around, but a lot of them do. Sterotypes are bred from truth, and the fact is gay men are still male, and whats the general steryotype about men and sex? They tend to prefer lots of sex with lots of different people with no strings attached, seperating love and sex is easy for them. So what do you think happens when you get a bunch of men with that mentality who are attracted to other men? Lots of casual sex. Is that nessicarily a bad thing? I don't think so. Is that how all gay men are? Not in the slightest. Most lesbian women will have about a max of 7 same sex partners throughout their lives, and the average gay man can get up in the hundreds.

I'm not doing this to rain on anyones parade (hehe...) but I'm just pointing out that this is the way it is. If the commited monogomous gay men out there don't like that steryotype then dont get frustrated with straight people for having it, get frustrated at the plethora of partying promiscuous gay men who reinforce it...Or you could do what I do and just not care what people do in the bedroom.

:happy:

Modifié par Ailith430, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:33 .

[CaribWarrior J]

No "alternate lifestyle" members in my party. If this is true, Zevran is out.

[TheDauntless]

I do not believe there needs to be an NPC who is designed as being 100%
gay to appease me, a gay gamer. I would have loved if all the NPCs in
DA: O were bisexual, but they're not and there is nothing I can really
do about it. If someone wants to mod that, I'd love them to death.
Outside of that, I just do not see the point in focusing on this in
such a negative way.

There are NPCs who are 100% straight. Two among them in DA are 50% straight. There is no such thing as the gay gamer to BioWare. Just the cop-outs.

It would go away if this didn't matter to people. Many seem intent on trying to tell themselves I'm wrong to make themselves feel good about an upcoming purchase.

No, there are no NPCs made specifically for the gay gamer. I'd argue
there are no NPCs made specifically for the straight gamer.

It's business so they have to be made specifically to appeal to someone. We agree none are made for the gay gamer, despite BioWare's hints to the contrary. That goes in line with my thought that if pressed to answer one way or the other, the question of whether gay gamers are important to BioWare would be no.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:37 .

[Ailith Tycane]

CaribWarrior J wrote...

No "alternate lifestyle" members in my party. If this is true, Zevran is out.

lol, do people even still use that term anymore?

[Blessed Silence]

Just watching Zevran's trailer I don't like him. He comes off so .. wrong. Maybe it's the accent I dunno.

[Ailith Tycane]

TheDauntless wrote...

I do not believe there needs to be an NPC who is designed as being 100%
gay to appease me, a gay gamer. I would have loved if all the NPCs in
DA: O were bisexual, but they're not and there is nothing I can really
do about it. If someone wants to mod that, I'd love them to death.
Outside of that, I just do not see the point in focusing on this in
such a negative way.

There are NPCs who are 100% straight. Two among them in DA are 50% straight. There is no such thing as the gay gamer to BioWare. Just the cop-outs.

It would go away if this didn't matter to people. Many seem intent on trying to tell themselves I'm wrong to make themselves feel good about an upcoming purchase.

Thats because you are wrong. You are being pessimistic to the point of being irrational (though I think you crossed that line already). The lead writer has even posted in this thread saying you're wrong about Zevran being a cop-out but you are obviously beyond persuasion. So, if you are no longer buying the game, this thread has become irrelivant.

[JZELOL]

I'm a bisexual elf IRL, and welcome the inclusion that Bioware has offered to those like me.

[Arconi4n03]

TheDauntless wrote...

There are NPCs who are 100% straight. Two among them in DA are 50% straight. There is no such thing as the gay gamer to BioWare. Just the cop-outs.

It would go away if this didn't matter to people. Many seem intent on trying to tell themselves I'm wrong to make themselves feel good about an upcoming purchase.

It's business so they have to be made specifically to appeal to someone. We agree none are made for the gay gamer, despite BioWare's hints to the contrary. That goes in line with my thought that if pressed to answer one way or the other, the question of whether gay gamers are important to BioWare would be no.

Seriously, why are you going on about this? You are NOT buying the game, we are. And I find it quite arrogant that you think you can make an assumption about why we are saying you're wrong...

It's simply because you are

[Pyro_Monkey]

aidron wrote...
Do they need to be specifically gay?

I'm of the mindset that what goes on in someone else's game does not affect me. If, for example, Zevran is straight in their game and gay in mine, I do not care. I firmly believe that in instances like this, NPCs should fully be subjective (which means every NPC would be better off bisexual in most cases) so as to give players the most freedom and the most options, hopefully followed up by the most fun possible.

I do not believe there needs to be an NPC who is designed as being 100% gay to appease me, a gay gamer. I would have loved if all the NPCs in DA: O were bisexual, but they're not and there is nothing I can really do about it. If someone wants to mod that, I'd love them to death. Outside of that, I just do not see the point in focusing on this in such a negative way.

the problem of course is though characters may not be gay in my game, i'd still know that they could be, and there'd probably be at least one point in conversation where their interest came up, and it would make me think differently about that character.   The point is that straight men tend to feel unconfortable around gay/bi men, even virtual ones.  If bioware made every character gay/bi then there'd be a large number of straight players who wouldn't feel attached to any of the characters because they feel uncomfortable.  As an example of this, in Mass Effect, Liara was the only character I almost never talked to, regardless of the gender of the character I was playing.

As well as this, there's also the fact that in real life, homosexuality isn't exactly rampant all throughout the population.  the fact that out of the 4 guys in your party, one of them is bi, is actually much higher odds than in real life.  making them all homosexual would certainly break realism.

[Maria Caliban]

TheDauntless wrote...

There are NPCs who are 100% straight. Two among them in DA are 50% straight. There is no such thing as the gay gamer to BioWare. Just the cop-outs.

They are bisexual. They were written as bisexuals. Bisexuals are not 50% straight, nor are they half-gay.

[ScytheDA]

I don't really like Zevran, but at least it's there for people who want it. If you don't like that they went with the "stereotypical" elf, then don't have the romance or just kill Zevran

Modifié par ScytheDA, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:56 .

[TheDauntless]

They are bisexual. They were written as bisexuals. Bisexuals are not 50% straight, nor are they half-gay

I see no reason to argue the figures. However it is relevant to point out that not even a single npc is allowed to be 100% gay and/or be an atypical depiction of gay because BioWare fears to alienate a portion of male and female straight gamers alike when a sexual character whom they find outwardly appealing is off-limits. That happens quite often to gay people in the media and real life. Straight people too, but numbers are on their side in both real life and in game-worlds. BioWare dares not reverse the situation even by one instance for it would jeopardize "replayability" among other qualities which people may associate with them as a company.

But BioWare does pretend to be reaching out as a friend to the unrepresented in this case. How is their gesture really manifesting in their product? My opinion is that it does not. The claim that they're inclusive in this instance is a lie because it must meet the condition that the characters are available to heterosexual couplings, always.

Modifié par TheDauntless, 30 octobre 2009 - 12:02 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

What about all of us gamers that doesn't want bi/gay/transexual/dendrophiliac or otherwise sexually deviant characters in our games? I'm not going to go into any specifics or argue in favour of my points simply because I'm afraid it could result in a swift slap with the banhammer, but what entitles you to a homosexual romance simply out of the merit of being gay?

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...
!!!!!Spoiler!!!!!

Dog is also gay.

!!!!!End Spoilers!!!!!!

[...]

It is true. I am male and he humped my leg. Harrowing experience, t'was!

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 30 octobre 2009 - 12:10 .