546 réponses à ce sujet

[winterborn_89]

agreed. very poor relationship/romance mechanics in this game compared to origins. the characters are just weaker in general...

[Shadow Raziel]

Sen4lifE wrote...

No, you DO have to be gay if you DON'T want to ****** him off (lose influence).

I've repeated the conversation multiple times with different combinations to try to avoid it. If you don't flirt with him back, or try to say you're not interested, you lose about 10-15 influence.

You can NOT say anything like you're just not interested: you can be a dick about it or flirt with them.

The point that makes me angry about this situation is that it is very black and white. It's not like with Zevran where you can just accept that they're gay and just be friends, like you can in real life, there is no just tolerating it. You HAVE to flirt with him or you HAVE to be somewhat rude and lose influence (he feels like you're trying to control what he feels).

It's a very big oversight and kind of petty because there is no "gray zone" there. You're gay or your an ass. It really make me go WTF?

Just ****** him off, that's what I did... and I did so without regret;) If that's your choice just be an ass. The way I see it you are not going to get along with everyone anyway. I kind of skipped the romance anyway, you have Isabella who is a Ho, or Merrill. Non of the women fit my personality type. and this door don't swing the other way. So that was just an aspect of the game I ignored.but I enjoyed the story and combat however.

[Sen4lifE]

dantares83 wrote...

I never read through the whole thread but when you hit on someone and is rejected, you will feel somehow bad/ashamed about it, so that is nothing wrong with Anders feeling a bit dejected and bad for mistakening you as a gay when u r not...
I mean there are 'obviously' straight people that turned out to be gay and guys who exhibits 'stereotypical' gay vibes but are actually straight as arrows... so he decided to be take that one chance n try his 'luck'... n boom.. not gay n not interested... n he felt sad... very normal... but at least no regrets next time...

regarding Isabela not getting rivalry points, that is just her personality, we see her rejecting this guy with such rude comments that I wouldn't be surprised if the guy will no dare to pick up any women in bars anymore...

so I really don't see why the OP would get so upset on this..

If you did read at least some key parts of this thread you might have come to realize that the point isn't Anders getting angry.  I believed I even clarified in my original post: bad explaining by being upset by it or not.

The idea of this thread isn't Anders getting angry, it's your lack of choice to say anything positive to him while still turning him down.

I.E.: Isabela flirts with you, you can tell her you just want to be friends, be sarcastic, rude or hit on her

Anders flirts with you, you can flirt or be direct/rude and make him upset.

[PlumPaul93]

Sen4lifE wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

I never read through the whole thread but when you hit on someone and is rejected, you will feel somehow bad/ashamed about it, so that is nothing wrong with Anders feeling a bit dejected and bad for mistakening you as a gay when u r not...
I mean there are 'obviously' straight people that turned out to be gay and guys who exhibits 'stereotypical' gay vibes but are actually straight as arrows... so he decided to be take that one chance n try his 'luck'... n boom.. not gay n not interested... n he felt sad... very normal... but at least no regrets next time...

regarding Isabela not getting rivalry points, that is just her personality, we see her rejecting this guy with such rude comments that I wouldn't be surprised if the guy will no dare to pick up any women in bars anymore...

so I really don't see why the OP would get so upset on this..

If you did read at least some key parts of this thread you might have come to realize that the point isn't Anders getting angry.  I believed I even clarified in my original post: bad explaining by being upset by it or not.

The idea of this thread isn't Anders getting angry, it's your lack of choice to say anything positive to him while still turning him down.

I.E.: Isabela flirts with you, you can tell her you just want to be friends, be sarcastic, rude or hit on her

Anders flirts with you, you can flirt or be direct/rude and make him upset.

This. That's my main problem as well it's a shame that we get bashed for having problems with this. I'd be more than willing to take the rivalry hit if there was an option that my hawke would use.

[Sen4lifE]

Chaos_1001 wrote...

Th OP in fact is not angry about this but more or less opened a discussion about it. The point I "think" was to get everyone's ideas on the table so Bioware could take a look into this going forward. The OP was not trying to do anything to force their opinion on anyone here. The OP did have strong thoughts on the subject and welcomed additional "relevant" feedback .The only time the OP ( from what I saw ) was actually aggressive in their thinking was for personal attacks and when someone tried to turn the subject into " something else" .

I myself see this discussion as very insightful. There is in fact a lot of great feed back on the subject within this topic.

Thank you and I do agree.  Maybe BioWare will take this as feedback and take it into consideration in DA3 for when they design dialogue sequences and choices.  Regardless of how it effects it, it'd be nice to know that they take it into consideration.

[Sen4lifE]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

dantares83 wrote...

I never read through the whole thread but when you hit on someone and is rejected, you will feel somehow bad/ashamed about it, so that is nothing wrong with Anders feeling a bit dejected and bad for mistakening you as a gay when u r not...
I mean there are 'obviously' straight people that turned out to be gay and guys who exhibits 'stereotypical' gay vibes but are actually straight as arrows... so he decided to be take that one chance n try his 'luck'... n boom.. not gay n not interested... n he felt sad... very normal... but at least no regrets next time...

regarding Isabela not getting rivalry points, that is just her personality, we see her rejecting this guy with such rude comments that I wouldn't be surprised if the guy will no dare to pick up any women in bars anymore...

so I really don't see why the OP would get so upset on this..

If you did read at least some key parts of this thread you might have come to realize that the point isn't Anders getting angry.  I believed I even clarified in my original post: bad explaining by being upset by it or not.

The idea of this thread isn't Anders getting angry, it's your lack of choice to say anything positive to him while still turning him down.

I.E.: Isabela flirts with you, you can tell her you just want to be friends, be sarcastic, rude or hit on her

Anders flirts with you, you can flirt or be direct/rude and make him upset.

This. That's my main problem as well it's a shame that we get bashed for having problems with this. I'd be more than willing to take the rivalry hit if there was an option that my hawke would use.

Exactly.  It would make much more sense.  They usually present these options.  I just hope they take it into consideration a little more. :S

[sevalaricgirl]

Nimpe wrote...

You don't have to be gay. But Anders is gay, and he hits on you. It's realistic. Everyone isn't going to wait for you to get romantic.

And if you flirt with someone you like, and they deny it, you're going to feel upset.

I think his problem is that Anders shouldn't be hitting on a straight man without provocation.  I do have a problem with the writing direction with this game.  None of the characters should be hitting on the pc without provocation.  That was incredibly bad writing.  It should be up to the PC to flirt first.  I'm female and play female characters but I think the same goes for Merril and Isabela.  Female PC flirts, Isabela/Merril go for it.  Male PC flirst Anders/Fenris go for it.  Not before.  And no I am not anti gay.  I am an author of a series of novels and two of the important characters are a lesbian couple.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 26 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Medhia Nox]

Stop oppressing me Sen4lifE... I've just had a hard time dealing with my emo wreck of a wizard boyfriend... he blew up a Chantry in a mad-queen rage-a-thon.

===

You guys get mad over a few rivalry points - do you realize this entire game deprives you of any chance to make change? Why would they take the effort to make sure you can avoid rivalry points when you can't avoid ANY of the major events in the game which are all pre-scripted and might as well have you as just another spectator for all the good you can do.

====

I just hope I don't see you guys on any of the hate threads about "Hawke not mattering" saying how tragedy is so "real life" and "Hawke shouldn't be able to make every decision".

I really think this game has MUCH larger problems - this is one small example of what poisons this whole game for some, perhaps many, people.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 26 mars 2011 - 06:55 .

[griffondor]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I think his problem is that Anders shouldn't be hitting on a straight man without provocation.  I do have a problem with the writing direction with this game.  None of the characters should be hitting on the pc without provocation.  That was incredibly bad writing.  It should be up to the PC to flirt first.  I'm female and play female characters but I think the same goes for Merril and Isabela.  Female PC flirts, Isabela/Merril go for it.  Male PC flirst Anders/Fenris go for it.  Not before.  And no I am not anti gay.  I am an author of a series of novels and two of the important characters are a lesbian couple.

I agree.  I am a straight female. When you meet Isabella and help her out, at the end of the dual, in the conversation wheel you have two choices--agree to help her or not agree.  If you don't agree, you lose her as a potential party member.  So I hit agree.  Then my PC says "I'll watch your back" and she comes back with "I'll bet.." very suggestively.  That was irritating.  A totally improper response to a complete stranger of the same gender.  She immediately went on my "stay away" from list.  Which is a shame because she is funny, and not so one dimensional when you get to know her.  It would have been fun to have "girl talk" with her and share thoughts about our companions...you know, just be friends with her.  But you are really forced to flirt with her, male or female to have any kind of relationship with her. I have only played as a female PC but it seems that this situation applies both ways...

Modifié par griffondor, 26 mars 2011 - 07:28 .

[Medhia Nox]

"A totally improper response to a complete stranger of the same gender." - griffondor

Is it a proper response to a stranger of a different gender griffondor?

[ZombiePowered]

griffondor wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I think his problem is that Anders shouldn't be hitting on a straight man without provocation.  I do have a problem with the writing direction with this game.  None of the characters should be hitting on the pc without provocation.  That was incredibly bad writing.  It should be up to the PC to flirt first.  I'm female and play female characters but I think the same goes for Merril and Isabela.  Female PC flirts, Isabela/Merril go for it.  Male PC flirst Anders/Fenris go for it.  Not before.  And no I am not anti gay.  I am an author of a series of novels and two of the important characters are a lesbian couple.

I agree.  I am a straight female. When you meet Isabella and help her out, at the end of the dual, in the conversation wheel you have two choices--agree to help her or not agree.  If you don't agree, you lose her as a potential party member.  So I hit agree.  Then my PC says "I'll watch your back" and she comes back with "I'll bet.." very suggestively.  That was irritating.  A totally improper response to a complete stranger of the same gender.  She immediately went on my "stay away" from list.  Which is a shame because she is funny, and not so one dimensional when you get to know her.  It would have been fun to have "girl talk" with her and share thoughts about our companions...you know, just be friends with her.  But you are really forced to flirt with her, male or female to have any kind of relationship with her. I have only played as a female PC but it seems that this situation applies both ways...

This isn't an issue with writing, this is you guys not liking the characters. Isabela of course flirts first, because she is extremely forward, flirtacious, and sexual. People like that exist. On the other hand, you have Fenris and Merrill, who you actually do have to flirt with first. After you hit on them for a while, they show up at your house because you initiated. Isabela and Anders initiate, because that is their personality. If you don't like that, then it's because you don't like them, not because the writing is bad.

[planed scaped]

Anders hitting on you no matter what is a little odd. My first playthrough when he did it I was like. "uhhhhh no" And then Anders yells and me and says I'm just like the templars.

Anders is by far my least favorite character in DA(for other reasons then sexuality) so I really don't ever use him ever. The only time I use him is to get Bethany/Carver to become a warden. I use a mod and the toolset to Make Merill a Spirit Healer with Creation.

The popular solution is that he only romances man Hawke if man Hawke initiates it. That would've saved Bioware a lot of headaches.

[griffondor]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Is it a proper response to a stranger of a different gender griffondor?

Actually... now that I think about it, I would have been just as irritated if Anders or Fenris--or any of the male companions-- said the same thing.

So I amend my statement to say "an improper response to a complete stranger".

[griffondor]

ZombiePowered wrote...

This isn't an issue with writing, this is you guys not liking the characters. Isabela of course flirts first, because she is extremely forward, flirtacious, and sexual. People like that exist. On the other hand, you have Fenris and Merrill, who you actually do have to flirt with first. After you hit on them for a while, they show up at your house because you initiated. Isabela and Anders initiate, because that is their personality. If you don't like that, then it's because you don't like them, not because the writing is bad.

Dragon Age:Origins had bisexual and straight characters who either gender could be "just friends" with.   In Dragon Age 2, we have two characters--Anders and Isabella--who are rather pivotal to the whole story (you miss a lot by not including them in the game) who initially "require" a sexual interest.  Why?   I am a straight female who wants to be "only friends" with Isabella but it's too difficult to get either rivalry or friendship beyond 50% unless a relationship occurs so she always disappears with the book.  It's just a small part of the story I am missing, but I wish it were otherwise.

My first playthough I didn't have a romance with anybody except Sebastian (who doesn't count).  I was able to successfully get full friendship or rivalry with Anders, Fenris, Aveline, Varric, Merrill, without too much trouble.  But it seems that if you are a female and want a friendship with Isabella, forget about it.  And if you are a male who wants only a friendship with Anders, forget about it.  Well, maybe not forget about it, but let's make it uncomfortable for you... maybe it's not "bad" writing, but it's curious writing.

Modifié par griffondor, 26 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[ScotGaymer]

Can I just disagree again?

It is NOT bad dialogue writing/design how the NPCs can deal with the PC. It is realistic for the type of "people" they are.
Anders is Pushy. And Isabela is flirty.

It makes sense that they would go there; if they were real people who were bisexual, then I reckon the type of people they are would act the same way.
Its realistic; the player doesnt ALWAYS have or need to have absolute control ALL the time over what their companion NPCs do...

I object to the lack of choice and impact on the main storyline (more on the grounds because we are SUPPOSED to have a choice and impact and we dont) but not in respect of NPC companion interactions.
Its nice that Isabela flirts with Hawke; and NO you do NOT need to display any interest to go down her storyline. Saying that is erroneous and frankly idiotic; it shows that you instantly recoiled from her and never actually bothered to find out who she is.

The companions and their romances are the strongest part of the game IMO.

[PlumPaul93]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Can I just disagree again?

It is NOT bad dialogue writing/design how the NPCs can deal with the PC. It is realistic for the type of "people" they are.
Anders is Pushy. And Isabela is flirty.

It makes sense that they would go there; if they were real people who were bisexual, then I reckon the type of people they are would act the same way.
Its realistic; the player doesnt ALWAYS have or need to have absolute control ALL the time over what their companion NPCs do...

I object to the lack of choice and impact on the main storyline (more on the grounds because we are SUPPOSED to have a choice and impact and we dont) but not in respect of NPC companion interactions.
Its nice that Isabela flirts with Hawke; and NO you do NOT need to display any interest to go down her storyline. Saying that is erroneous and frankly idiotic; it shows that you instantly recoiled from her and never actually bothered to find out who she is.

The companions and their romances are the strongest part of the game IMO.

All I will say to this is yes they should react that way given the option hawke is given to decline, since he is given only a harsh way to decline and in 99% of the other romance options hawke is given a diplimatic option to decline and he/she isn't in this one then yes I would say it is bad writing.

[Princess Katrina]

Sen4lifE wrote...

But at sometimes, you don't actually a get a choice, which is a bit annoying, because personally, I'm straight.

This should go if you're gay and want to be without hitting on someone of the opposite sex.

It's frankly bad work of the conversation wheel.  I've been experiencing it a lot lately.


Really, the sentences wrote sometimes have abo****ely NO resemblance to what is actually said, and can really be irritating.  If it wasn't for the little icon in the center, I'd get really frustrated.

Here's what I'm talking about:

When you talk to Anders after you get back.  If you just want to learn your companions and NOT hit on them, you can not with him, unless you ****** him off, there is NO way of winning.

Blah blah, being weighty last time we talked, blah blah

1) Be a good friend
2) Make a sarcastic joke that pisses him off
3) Be an ass, make him mad

He talks

#) Hit on him
1) Encourage him like a friend
2) Be sarcastic, ****** him off
3) Be a jerk, ****** him off

He hits on you

You can:

1) Refuse, because you don't roll that way or don't want him and ****** HIM OFF with a, was it -10 or -15?
2) Hit on him
3) Hit on him

Okay, that's a what the **** moment for me.  With Zevran, if you just wanted to be friendly, you could tell him so without losing a ****-ton of influence.  If you seduced him and broke up with him, that's one thing.  But what the ****? He wasn't even remotely gay in Awakening, now you can't even avoid flirting with him while trying to make friends?

Seriously, this actually pisses me off a little, because I have to potentially ruin any other romance option just to try to learn one of my companions?  What kind of freedom is that?

Really, you can't say pretty much what you did with Zevran, whatever but I don't go that way?


I'm not intending to offend anyone of the homosexual orientation: this should go for any way, I just don't know if this is an isolated incident or if it happens with all companions.

Well, I play a female character (and pretty much always play her as a lesbian, which is what I am, though occasionally will make a char on a later playthrough who is not only a lesbian just out of curiosity and because I enjoy good romantic stories even if they're not lesbian in nature), but I didn't really have this issue with Anders.

I mean, yeah, he hit on me, but even on my current playthrough where I'm using the humor/charm dialogue options most of the time, I didn't ****** him off or gain any rivalry with him from it as I recall. He also didn't hit on me this time, though he did hit on my first char, who was diplo/friendly conversation choices. I had her simply tell him she wasn't interested. I don't know if it gave him rivalry points or not, can't remember, but it all played out rather logically.

As for Anders in Awakening, I have to disagree. He wasn't -gay,- but he was most definitely bisexual, and definitely a flirt. 

As for the rivalry points from telling Anders you're not interested, it does make sense to me. Anyone who's flirted with someone and immediately been told there's no chance of them being interested in you should be able to understand it. *shrugs* Also, as I recall, the three options with Anders when he hits on you are 1) Hit on him (with the little icon), 2) Neutral response that neither confirms nor denies any chance for future romance, and 3) make it clear you're not interested (which has the little </3 icon). 

What else would there be? =\\

As for your main concern, I haven't played a male char, so I can't say for Fenris (I know he'll make a flirtatious comment towards a female Champion pretty early on, though, but *shrugs*), but Merrill doesn't seem to be very aggressive romantically. Isabella, however, is -very- aggressive in that regard and very flirtatious, but that's just how some people are.

And I do see Anders being somewhat that way (though not nearly so extensively as Isabella) based on his behavior from Awakening.

[griffondor]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I object to the lack of choice and impact on the main storyline (more on the grounds because we are SUPPOSED to have a choice and impact and we dont) but not in respect of NPC companion interactions.
Its nice that Isabela flirts with Hawke; and NO you do NOT need to display any interest to go down her storyline. Saying that is erroneous and frankly idiotic; it shows that you instantly recoiled from her and never actually bothered to find out who she is.

The companions and their romances are the strongest part of the game IMO.

I would appreciate you NOT calling me an idiot for expressing my opinion.  An opinion based on experience playing this game.

It is not erroneous--my first playthrough, I was a dagger weilding rogue and had no use for another in the party so she wasn't a useful member of my team.  In my second, mage playthrough, I knew she would be useful and used her more.  She is hard to get to over fifty percent friendship or rivalry without flirting with her.  This is a fact. 

Perhaps they should have made Anders gay.  I would have no problem with that.  But don't call him straight when a male player recieves rivalry points for turning him down. 

[ScotGaymer]

I never called him straight at any point.

Nor did I say you were stupid; I said you asserting that you HAVE to display romantic interest in Isabela to get her as a companion is patently wrong, and frankly a stupid statement to make given how blatantly wrong it is.

You do not have to display romantic interest in her at any point. Frankly Anders is a heck of a lot more of a pain in the ass about pushing into a place he isnt welcome than Isabela is.

I think you were just being a tad judgemental about her; which I understand actually but it doesnt mean its any less wrong sorry.

@PlumPaul...
And the not having a third way to turn Anders down nicely might actually be a mistake as near as I can tell; as apparently (so I am told) that the middle "romance" option doesnt actually act like a romance option.
So methinks theres a mistake been made there.

[Taura-Tierno]

griffondor wrote...

It is not erroneous--my first playthrough, I was a dagger weilding rogue and had no use for another in the party so she wasn't a useful member of my team. In my second, mage playthrough, I knew she would be useful and used her more. She is hard to get to over fifty percent friendship or rivalry without flirting with her. This is a fact.

Uhm. That is not fact.

On my first playthrough, I got 100% friendship with Isabela (she was the first I maxed out, even) and I didn't even flirt with her once. I was just ... friendly, with the odd sarcastic remark. Worked out just fine, with no difficulties whatsoever.

[Aggie Punbot]

"I'm for the right to choose to be gay, but.."

Okay, I read the title of this thread and figured that the last word pretty much indicated that the previous wording was going to be completely invalidated by the body of the post. And I was right.

[Bathead]

That's the same feeling I get when I read "I'm no homophobe, but..."

[Taura-Tierno]

A little like "No offense, but [something seriously nasty]", no?

[Shadow Raziel]

griffondor wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

I object to the lack of choice and impact on the main storyline (more on the grounds because we are SUPPOSED to have a choice and impact and we dont) but not in respect of NPC companion interactions.
Its nice that Isabela flirts with Hawke; and NO you do NOT need to display any interest to go down her storyline. Saying that is erroneous and frankly idiotic; it shows that you instantly recoiled from her and never actually bothered to find out who she is.

The companions and their romances are the strongest part of the game IMO.

I would appreciate you NOT calling me an idiot for expressing my opinion.  An opinion based on experience playing this game.

It is not erroneous--my first playthrough, I was a dagger weilding rogue and had no use for another in the party so she wasn't a useful member of my team.  In my second, mage playthrough, I knew she would be useful and used her more.  She is hard to get to over fifty percent friendship or rivalry without flirting with her.  This is a fact. 

Perhaps they should have made Anders gay.  I would have no problem with that.  But don't call him straight when a male player recieves rivalry points for turning him down. 

You know I just kind of acted like an a hole and Isabella loved me. And I did not have a relationship with her.  I just took a hard stance in certain situations during the game and got positive influence points from her. I just could not bring myself to have a relationship with her though... She was too much of a Ho for me.

I have a very strong rivalry with Anders, He talks smack to me whenever I go to the clinic. But we got off on the wrong foot when he hit on me and it continued to digress.

Fenris did not get on my nerves as much as Anders. He was kind of like Zevron. he hits on you, you turn him down. and he is cool the rest of the time. no more innuendos ect. As a straight man, I wish there had been another female option. My choices were Isabella The Ho, Merrill who is so naive, or Averline the chick who acts like a dude. lol. Those were my choices so I opted out of the romance option. Maybe my next game I will make a warrior who does not care what rots off and have a releationship with Isabella so I can get the achievement.

For me the relationship character interaction was the weakest part of the game.  And generally it is an interesting part of Bioware games. My advice to you is take a hard stance when speaking with non Party NPC's and you should have no problem winning her over.

[Sen4lifE]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Nimpe wrote...

You don't have to be gay. But Anders is gay, and he hits on you. It's realistic. Everyone isn't going to wait for you to get romantic.

And if you flirt with someone you like, and they deny it, you're going to feel upset.

I think his problem is that Anders shouldn't be hitting on a straight man without provocation.  I do have a problem with the writing direction with this game.  None of the characters should be hitting on the pc without provocation.  That was incredibly bad writing.  It should be up to the PC to flirt first.  I'm female and play female characters but I think the same goes for Merril and Isabela.  Female PC flirts, Isabela/Merril go for it.  Male PC flirst Anders/Fenris go for it.  Not before.  And no I am not anti gay.  I am an author of a series of novels and two of the important characters are a lesbian couple.

Sorry, no, that is not my problem.   See the above post.