546 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlass Jack]

Carfax wrote...

He may have possibly been bisexual, but even this can be disputed.  Alexander the Great was offered "two beautiful boys" but he refused the both of them and was apparently outraged that they had even been offered to him.

That quote doesn't mention the basis of his outrage. It read to me more like he was outraged more at the buying and selling part.

To put it a more contemporary way, even if I were single, I'd be pretty angry if someone tried to get me a female prostitute. But not because I don't like women.

[Eclipse_9990]

ReinaHW wrote...

With my naturally soft voice, my feminine behaviour and attiude people have at times seen me as female, I'm incapable of being a man in every sense, to me males are a mystery.
Even my mum has suspected that I've always hated being born with a male body, but had to repress myself because of society's narrow notions on what defines a person.

Actually male female TG's who have had imtimate relations have mentioned that the intimacy is ten times more intense and pleasureable than it was when they had the male parts.
The hormone treatments basically shrink the parts down so that they can be easily removed without major blood loss during the operation, while that happens the area of the body where the most pleasure can be felt changes and becomes much more stimulated once the parts are removed.

The change after the op is never noticed, surgeons have perfected it so well that it's hard to tell that male parts were even there. It's not like in some bad movie made by a misinformed idiot who doesn't bother to actually research and talk to anyone who's had the operation and switch.
In real life, the best surgeon can make the post-op work look perfect.

Hmm but what about sex drive? They cut off your balls right? Men who were castrated don't have a sex drive anymore, wouldnt that be the same issue with transgenders? Or do they do something with them that I'm not aware off. 

Also after the change doesnt it get depressing after a while? Since you wouldnt really be a woman? Fake breasts, fake vagina, no periods(though I guess that would count as a bonus?*shrugs*), and no having children biologically linked to yourself. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 31 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[Dark83]

Carfax wrote...

If my claim is true?  You can look it up yourself if you or anyone else has doubts..

And there are lots of other famous gay or bisexual people throughout History for them to use as examples..

The first Google link and their sources disagreed.
http://www.gayheroes.com/alex.htm

[Dark83]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

AedenHawke wrote...

Manly hawke, deep voice, kills ****. Yes, that screams out "I'm Gay" doesn't it?

It doesn't neccesarily mean your not either.  I'm always so amused when people think certain mannerism and personality types are the core to homosexuality.  That's not how it works,  sure there are stereotypes for a reason but not everyone fits neatly into those stereotypes.

You'd think they don't even know about common stereotypes.
http://en.wikipedia....ar_(gay_culture)

My friend is straight, male, and super muscular. That was enough for a gay man to hit on him because he thought (as my friend was superfit) he was gay. It was hilarious for us, probably embarrassing to both of them.

Funny enough, my friend doesn't wear super-tight shirts (to show off) as much anymore, unless it's in context (like he's with his Dragonboat team or something).

[Eclipse_9990]

Dark83 wrote...

Carfax wrote...

If my claim is true?  You can look it up yourself if you or anyone else has doubts..

And there are lots of other famous gay or bisexual people throughout History for them to use as examples..

The first Google link and their sources disagreed.
http://www.gayheroes.com/alex.htm

Lol not that I'm taking sides or anything but I don't think searching for this kind of info on a website called "gayheroes" really counts as a suitable argument for his claim. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 31 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[Dark83]

Karsciyin wrote...

Well, he makes that remark about "Had I known Anso would send a man so capable, I would have asked him to look sooner." That sort of counts, since you can call him a flatterer (he then says he'll have to practice for next time), have it go over your head, or be "I'm sure capable was all he was looking for. :ph34r:"

Hm, I'll have to pay more attention to that. I believe that's in relation to "Why didn't you ask for help sooner?" in which case it could have just been a "I didn't expect competancy" kind of response. Dunno, maybe (as a straight male) it went over my head, since I certainly didn't have to reject him or anything.

[tiernanls]

alexander the great was a badass. whether he liked it both ways or not. why does the possibility of him being gay diminish his badassedness? if 300 yrs from now people saw me as some world conquering stud that was a complete flamer i would be ok with it. such a silly argument in what was otherwise a good debate as to writing arguments about the game. lol.

[Dark83]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Lol not that I'm taking sides or anything but I don't think searching for this kind of info on a website called "gayheroes" really counts as a suitable argument for his claim. 

As I said - it was the first Google result.
Also, you have taken sides. You just made an ad hominem attack on that site, rather than address its contents.
Perhaps you'd care to look at and address the actual content?

Key points:
- Who was Hephaestion?
- According to their analysis, the marriages were almost entirely political. Which is hardly surprising when he's off conquering the known world. Carfax didn't even look into the wives beyond the numbers.
- Carfax offered a single reference (Ages Savill, Alexander the Great and His Time) about Alexander's disgust at being offered the chance to buy two boys. Within that excerpt, apparently Alexander had a reputation that would cause the merchant to offer him boys, as opposed to girls. It is ambigious and does not support any notion that he was not bisexual. It does expose his disgust at slavery of boys.
- Are the sources in that site suspect? Robin Lane Fox, Alexander the Great; Mary Renault, The Nature of Alexander; The Random House Encyclopedia, New Revised Edition, 1983
- They quote an article from Paul Cartledge is Professor of Greek History in the University of Cambridge, and Fellow of Clare College, Cambridge. "That he loved at least two men there can be little doubt. The first was the Macedonian noble Hephaestion, a friend from boyhood"

Modifié par Dark83, 31 mars 2011 - 06:35 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Carfax - I agree. Gold, platinum, silver, genius, the arts, Olympic level athletes - the more valued a thing is - the rarer it tends to be. Indeed - gays and straights are not equal.

And, as your New Gay Overlords - we thank you for being breed-tanks on our behalf. Though - I would have to warn you, we've developed enough science to take reproduction entirely out of your hands now. Be warned - your usefulness wanes.

((this is intended as a snarky response - if you take it seriously, I feel bad for you))

====

As for Alexander - can you please site books which you have read on the topic?

Diogonese of Sinope - (Concerning Alexander's love of Hephaestion) - said that Alexander was "ruled by Hephaestion's thighs"

((Concerning Hephaestion - the love of Alexander's life)) "His most redeeming quality was his constant personal devotion to Alexander. To someone who asserted that Craterus showed him equal loyalty, the king replied: 'Craterus loves the king; Hephaetion loves me for myself.' Olympias, as one might expect, was violently jealous of her son's inseparable companion. " - pg 465, Alexander of Macedon, 356 - 323 B.C. by Peter Green ISBN0520071662

"If Alexander meant more than anything to Hephaestion, so did Hephaestion to Alexander. The violence and extravagance of the king's grief went beyond all normal bounds. For a day and a night he lay on the body, weeping, no one could comfort him. General mourning was ordered throughout the East. All flutes and other musical instruments were banned in camp. Alexander cut his hair in token of mourning, as Achilles did for Patroclus, and even had the manes and tails of his horses docked. Hephaestion's wretched physician was crucified, and the temple of Asclepious in Ecbatana razed to the ground..." pg 465 Alexander of Macedon, 356 - 323 B.C. by Peter Green ISBN0520071662

"Whether Alexander was genuinly in love with her is a debatable point, though several sources allege it; she only became pregnant in the last year of his life, after Hephaestion's death. In any case, the political advantages of such an alliance were very considerable indeed, for all parties concerned." ((Concerning Roxane - Alexander's first wife.)) Pg 369 - Alexander of Macedon, 356 - 323 B.C. by Peter Green ISBN0520071662

Stateria - Darius' eldest daughter, was easily a political maneuver.

His final wife - and evidently married on the same day as Stateria - was another member of Darius' court Parysatis II - this cemented the political domination of the region after he conquered it.

=====

I'm going to look into "Agnes" (you wrote Ages) Seville's body of work - but so far, it seems to be the only book she's ever written - and I can find little, to nothing, about her credibility.

While Peter Green - who I quote - is noted as a British classical scholar.

If you'd like to argue about Alexander the Greats homosexuality - we can do so further.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[ReinaHW]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

ReinaHW wrote...

With my naturally soft voice, my feminine behaviour and attiude people have at times seen me as female, I'm incapable of being a man in every sense, to me males are a mystery.
Even my mum has suspected that I've always hated being born with a male body, but had to repress myself because of society's narrow notions on what defines a person.

Actually male female TG's who have had imtimate relations have mentioned that the intimacy is ten times more intense and pleasureable than it was when they had the male parts.
The hormone treatments basically shrink the parts down so that they can be easily removed without major blood loss during the operation, while that happens the area of the body where the most pleasure can be felt changes and becomes much more stimulated once the parts are removed.

The change after the op is never noticed, surgeons have perfected it so well that it's hard to tell that male parts were even there. It's not like in some bad movie made by a misinformed idiot who doesn't bother to actually research and talk to anyone who's had the operation and switch.
In real life, the best surgeon can make the post-op work look perfect.

Hmm but what about sex drive? They cut off your balls right? Men who were castrated don't have a sex drive anymore, wouldnt that be the same issue with transgenders? Or do they do something with them that I'm not aware off. 

Also after the change doesnt it get depressing after a while? Since you wouldnt really be a woman? Fake breasts, fake vagina, no periods(though I guess that would count as a bonus?*shrugs*), and no having children biologically linked to yourself. 

The sex drive is still there for anyone who's had the OP, if they have any interest in such things, I don't, but others do.  Replacing testosterone with estrogen still increases the natural drive in a person, just alters it a little while making the body more feminine in various aspects like more feminine features, the body adjusting into a more feminine one and other aspects.

When someone who's TG chooses to go through with the op then they know the sacrifices that they have to make and the risks, those who go through with it accept what's going to happen because living with a physical gender they have no connection with is living a lie that causes a lot of damage.

There are many TG's who do wish that it was possible to be able to have all aspects in full, but sadly ovary transplant to allow the body to manage that aspect of a female body is still very hard to do without killing the patient.
The same with transplanting a womb into the body, one day medical science will improve to the point where that's possible, but at this time it's not there yet.

For those who have undergone the op, it's not depressing at all, if anything it's liberating to finally be who they are, a slice of freedom from a birth defect and a way of life that they can't identify with and don't wish to be part of.
I know that since coming to accept myself I feel a lot more cheerful than I did living the lie of a male life, while I still have the birth defect of the male body, my acceptance of myself allows me to endure while I work towards being rid of the birth defect.

I know the risks and I've accepted the sacrifices I have to make in order to live my life, compared to living as the man I can never be and being miserable from that, then the sacrifices I can live with.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dark83 - excellent point that the merchant offered him boys.

If I were a Macedonian king who, by nearly all accounts was - arrogant, beautiful, well built, violent, and spoiled... and you even remotely suggested that I had to purchase sex. I would have probably had some of my soldiers take you into the street and publicly beat you.

[Eclipse_9990]

ReinaHW wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

ReinaHW wrote...

With my naturally soft voice, my feminine behaviour and attiude people have at times seen me as female, I'm incapable of being a man in every sense, to me males are a mystery.
Even my mum has suspected that I've always hated being born with a male body, but had to repress myself because of society's narrow notions on what defines a person.

Actually male female TG's who have had imtimate relations have mentioned that the intimacy is ten times more intense and pleasureable than it was when they had the male parts.
The hormone treatments basically shrink the parts down so that they can be easily removed without major blood loss during the operation, while that happens the area of the body where the most pleasure can be felt changes and becomes much more stimulated once the parts are removed.

The change after the op is never noticed, surgeons have perfected it so well that it's hard to tell that male parts were even there. It's not like in some bad movie made by a misinformed idiot who doesn't bother to actually research and talk to anyone who's had the operation and switch.
In real life, the best surgeon can make the post-op work look perfect.

Hmm but what about sex drive? They cut off your balls right? Men who were castrated don't have a sex drive anymore, wouldnt that be the same issue with transgenders? Or do they do something with them that I'm not aware off. 

Also after the change doesnt it get depressing after a while? Since you wouldnt really be a woman? Fake breasts, fake vagina, no periods(though I guess that would count as a bonus?*shrugs*), and no having children biologically linked to yourself. 

The sex drive is still there for anyone who's had the OP, if they have any interest in such things, I don't, but others do.  Replacing testosterone with estrogen still increases the natural drive in a person, just alters it a little while making the body more feminine in various aspects like more feminine features, the body adjusting into a more feminine one and other aspects.

When someone who's TG chooses to go through with the op then they know the sacrifices that they have to make and the risks, those who go through with it accept what's going to happen because living with a physical gender they have no connection with is living a lie that causes a lot of damage.

There are many TG's who do wish that it was possible to be able to have all aspects in full, but sadly ovary transplant to allow the body to manage that aspect of a female body is still very hard to do without killing the patient.
The same with transplanting a womb into the body, one day medical science will improve to the point where that's possible, but at this time it's not there yet.

For those who have undergone the op, it's not depressing at all, if anything it's liberating to finally be who they are, a slice of freedom from a birth defect and a way of life that they can't identify with and don't wish to be part of.
I know that since coming to accept myself I feel a lot more cheerful than I did living the lie of a male life, while I still have the birth defect of the male body, my acceptance of myself allows me to endure while I work towards being rid of the birth defect.

I know the risks and I've accepted the sacrifices I have to make in order to live my life, compared to living as the man I can never be and being miserable from that, then the sacrifices I can live with.

Thats pretty interesting. Thanks for being cool, and answering my questions so well. 

[ReinaHW]

No problem. Many tend to be misinformed about Trans-gender's, they tend to think it's something like in the movies or some TV show where what's shown is the misinformed notion from someone who has never bothered to actually learn the truth.

The same can be said of homophobics and so on, they know nothing about that which they hate, they just hate because they're too lazy and too simple minded to truly understand and see the truth.

In a sense, it's like all the hate for anything, much of the hate for a lot of things in life is from misinformation. People tend to believe the lies the narrow minded media will tell them instead of opening their eyes and really seeing the truth.
To hate without reason is to close the eyes and heart off to life.

[Carfax]

ReinaHW wrote...

No problem. Many tend to be misinformed about Trans-gender's, they tend to think it's something like in the movies or some TV show where what's shown is the misinformed notion from someone who has never bothered to actually learn the truth.

The same can be said of homophobics and so on, they know nothing about that which they hate, they just hate because they're too lazy and too simple minded to truly understand and see the truth.

In a sense, it's like all the hate for anything, much of the hate for a lot of things in life is from misinformation. People tend to believe the lies the narrow minded media will tell them instead of opening their eyes and really seeing the truth.
To hate without reason is to close the eyes and heart off to life.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?  Taking hormones has a powerful effect on your physiology, more so if you are young. 

I've actually seen pictures of FTM transgenders who started taking hormones at a very young age, and they are practically indistinguishable from a biological female.

[ReinaHW]

A lady never says her age, but since I'll need to, I'm 31. I'm young enough for there to be some considerable change, but I've only got a narrow window of time. I'm hoping I'll be approved for hormone treatments later this year, I've already followed the policy in terms of the pre-hormone transistion and endured a lot of attacks from narrow minded dolts due to refusing to be male.

I wish I had accepted myself a lot sooner, instead of forcing myself to live the lie for the sake of my dad, it would have saved me so many problems.

Hopefully I'll be approved and I can take the next steps towards being myself instead of the lie.

[Carfax]

Dark83 wrote...
 According to their analysis, the marriages were almost entirely political. Which is hardly surprising when he's off conquering the known world. Carfax didn't even look into the wives beyond the numbers.

LOL, what about his mistresses and concubines?  Do you have an excuse for them?

Carfax offered a single reference (Ages Savill, Alexander the Great and His Time) about Alexander's disgust at being offered the chance to buy two boys. Within that excerpt, apparently Alexander had a reputation that would cause the merchant to offer him boys, as opposed to girls. It is ambigious and does not support any notion that he was not bisexual. It does expose his disgust at slavery of boys.

I admit that it can be interpreted this way as well, but who's to say which interpretation is correct?

What ever the case, Alexander the Great clearly wasn't gay, as he had relationships with a number of women throughout his life.  At the most he was bisexual, but this can also be disputed as none of Alexander the Great's contemporary historians explicitly refer to him as engaging in any same sex activity......which is unusual, because his father was notorious for having homoerotic encounters.

[Carfax]

ReinaHW wrote...

A lady never says her age, but since I'll need to, I'm 31. I'm young enough for there to be some considerable change, but I've only got a narrow window of time. I'm hoping I'll be approved for hormone treatments later this year, I've already followed the policy in terms of the pre-hormone transistion and endured a lot of attacks from narrow minded dolts due to refusing to be male.

I wish I had accepted myself a lot sooner, instead of forcing myself to live the lie for the sake of my dad, it would have saved me so many problems.

Hopefully I'll be approved and I can take the next steps towards being myself instead of the lie.

Wow, good luck.  I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to make such a decision..

[Carfax]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If you'd like to argue about Alexander the Greats homosexuality - we can do so further.

Yeah, if his wives were nothing more than politically arranged marriages, how do you explain his concubines?

And, why don't Alexander's contemporary historians refer to him as a man or boy lover?  His father Phillip the II was a notorious womanizer and boy lover, yet nothing is ever said of Alexander in this regard.

Men back in that era were much more emotionally and physically affectionate with each other.  It could have been that Hephaestion and Alexander were just the very best of friends.

[ReinaHW]

The decision to proceed with what I needed to do was easy, but trying not to get a knife in the ribs from some transphobic who refuses to learn the truth about TG's, that's hard.

And being bi-sexual means I don't have any issues with the relationship angles in DA2, since for me it's nice. Though there's no way I'm playing as male Hawke, bad enough having the body without playing as a male as well.
Those who have issues with it should consider how hetrosexuality is forced in the faces of those who don't feel the same way, I don't rub my being bi-sexual and TG in people's faces and a few people I know who are homosexual never, ever rub their sexual tastes in anyone's face.

I think it's brave of Bioware to think outside the box in those regards and I hope more developers will follow suit, Obsidian did with one of their characters, a woman, in New Vegas who is attracted to fellow women so is likely to flirt with a female lead while not being interested in men.
More courage please, less conformity.

Modifié par ReinaHW, 31 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Carfax - or, they could have been the greatest of lovers.

Where are these contemporary historians you speak of? I'd like to read their works.

Do you happen to get all your information from this site Carfax? Because your "quotes" are all there - clearly stated, in black and white.

http://www.bible-his...nder-the-great/

Now, I'd hardly consider a "Bible-History" site to be un-biased toward a characters potential homosexuality.

[GU1LD3NST3RN]

You know those times when you jump to the end of a thread and you have no idea how in the bloody hell it reached the point that it has. Yeah...

In response to the original topic, I don't feel as though it was necessarily a huge failing of the dialogue wheel. I mean, it makes sense that if you turn somebody down saying "sorry, I'm not into dudes" (or chicks, whatever) that they'd be at least a little bit upset.

That's not to say, however, that this necessarily warrants the large amount of rivalry points you get by saying so. I understand if a person is a bit put out when the Hawke they're pursuing shoots them down... but the friendship/rivalry system makes it look like every single one of them takes it as a personal betrayal. Could we not have written a few mature characters who just go "well, that's fine, I'll just go stare at Varric's chest for a while instead, then"? How hard would it have been to make a few of them not sulk like a teenager without a date to the dance?

And besides that, I actually wasn't too thrilled with the whole "you can sleep with anybody" thing.

Now, before I get lynched for that, let me explain: I don't really give a rip if BioWare decides to includes gay/bi/alien mind melding characters in their games. But I did not like them making *every single* romanceable character in Dragon Age 2 bi. I get that there was some discontent among a number of players that their male Warden couldn't do "Joining: the sequel" with Alistair in Origins, but this just felt cheap. I got the distinct impression that BioWare was just trying to make everybody happy by saying "well, okay, now you can do it with everybody, regardless of gender. Have fun, you crazy kids". It made me feel like the characters weren't real characters inhabiting a living game world, but rather simple playthings for the player to mess around with at their leisure. The "this makes you flirt with them, this breaks their poor, fragile heart" icons that blatantly told you which path to follow to get up in their medieval undergarments didn't help either. I just felt uncomfortable because I didn't feel like I was romancing a well-developed character, but an unprincipled toy within the game that would just do whatever I wanted. Perhaps I should count myself lucky that my game glitched out and I couldn't actually complete the romance plot with Isabella the polyganal sex doll.

Again, I don't care if BioWare includes gay characters: just write them better than this.

[Halie Star]

Anders is so very gay,  I always pick the wrong answers, half my hero's don't end up with anyone.

[Sen4lifE]

Shinian2 wrote...

You know, I managed to get through his dialog without him hitting on me and without him getting mad (getting rivalry points)
All I did was not click any heart options. The first convesation that had a broken heart icon I clicked and no rivalry.

I'm really not seeing the problem here.

Which means  you are either lieing or did not pay attention to the rivalry.  Soz, unless you got an altered version, it happens.

[Sen4lifE]

griffondor wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"A totally improper response to a complete stranger of the same gender." - griffondor

Is it a proper response to a stranger of a different gender griffondor?

I know what you are asking that for, and I do disagree with her comment, but for the sake no more arguing on this forum, I ask that we don't ask questions we know will lead to a debate about homosexuality.  Unless it's directly offensive, may we just ignore it?

My response went over everybody's head... I feel compelled to clarify.

The comment Isabella makes to femHawk is inappropriate, not because she is a woman making a sexual innuendo at another woman, it's inappropriate because female sexuality is different from male sexuality.  

Why would a woman assume that another woman wants to look at her ass?  I can appreciate a nice ass, male or female, in the context of beauty, but focusing on body parts for sexual arousal is not a feminine trait. It's not gay women, but straight men, who create the demand for silicone breasts, for example.  Sexual triggers tend to be different for men and women regardless of sexual orientation.

Isabella's comment is inappropriate because it is not gender specific-- not because it is not "gender orientated" specific.

Hope that makes sense to those who immediately assumed HOMOPHOBE...

Btw, the comment is rare in that in most of the game, and in the previous Dragon Age universe, gender differences are respected and acknowledged.  It's something I really appreciate and adds to the immersiveness of the game.  Maybe that's why this particular statement stood out and irritated me.

Stopping you at "it's not a feminine trait.." WRONG! It's not YOUR trait, you need to get out more, hun.  Ever been to a brothel, maybe?

[Sen4lifE]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Gay people come in all shapes and sizes AedenHawke.

Last year I was seeing (going out with) a guy who was a 6.5 feet tall, muscled, skinheaded, bodybuilder. No one I knew ever believed he was gay till they saw us together. Then it was kinda obvious he was into me.

You ought not to stereotype like that. If you still dont believe me; Alexander the Great liked dudes as well, and he was considered the most badass conquering warrior in the world until the advent of Genghis Khan.

@Senilife.

I agree with that statement about the Paraphrasing int his game being really bad; but then I have NEVER been that big of a paraphrasing fan. Some people like it.

"Then it was kinda obvious he was into me."  --Is it homophobic to be immature and laugh?

And I think what made it sort of worse is that they try to tailor how you answer to how you usually answer stuff so sometimes it even comes out worse and more off than what you thought it'd say.  It's a cinematic fault, just gotta save before major dialgoue. =/