35 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabresandiego]

While cunning is great at defending against most attacks, it seems to do nothing to defend against abilities which autohit or do area of effect damage (like the rock wraith explosion, the saarebas lightning, or an assassins backstab? (not sure if it can be dodged)). The fact of the matter is that autoattacks rarely wipe your party, its most often the super powerful abilities which cant be avoided (unless you run out of the way) which kill your companions, especially the AOE's. The best way to survive the attacks which most likely kill you are with constitution, not cunning. I only have 1 character in my party who is high in cunning instead of constitution (Varric) and he almost always is the first to die If I make a mistake.

I think that cunning is a complete waste of points on almost any character besides a rogue and its value at increasing crit damage and lockpicking/traps. I personally think that only 1 character in the party should have high cunning and the rest should have none at all, and invest into constitution instead.

Any thoughts?

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 19 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[Seajaydub]

Going to have to agree here. The only person that should be getting auto-attacked is your main warrior anyway. And he should have enough armor to survive it with no cunning. Spells are what kill your party, not melee attacks.

[naughty99]

How about if you are playing as a rogue Hawke?

You only need 21 cunning to open master locks if you have two lockpick items; however, with Devious Harm each point of cunning equals an additional crit dmg %.

I don't have Devious Harm yet (lvl 15 Rogue), so I can't say how much impact it will make, but I'm trying to decide between putting more points into CON vs. cunning for the critical damage boost.

I saw a post by a DW rogue player who got massive (86k +51k) damage on bosses with 68 cunning. On nightmare, however, maybe it's more important to have enough health to survive.

[Rehwyn]

I agree: defense from cunning isn't particularly good. I don't bother with cunning except on rogues, and for rogues it's the stat I take points out of if I need more HP. This is also why cunning-based duelist tanking doesn't work on higher difficulties.

That said, at the end of Nightmare on my rogue I'm usually fine with just around 20 Con (which considering there is a +7 to all stat rune isn't hard). I usually roll with Aveline though using Bodyguard on me, which helps a lot.

Honestly, what kills my rogue the most on Nightmare is friendly fire from Fenris on the fights where he's not in my party (and I therefore can't control him). He's good at owning me if I get anywhere close to him. ~_~

Modifié par Rehwyn, 19 mars 2011 - 12:27 .

[TG-Nalfen]

Cunning as a defensive stat fails for anything but a Rogue; even on a rogue if you play on hard or nightmare it will not save your ass on anything except normal enemies and critters.

Don't bother investing into defense runes too much. Invest in Prosperity Runes till end game then Valliance rune + resist or Armor in the end game.

I tried raising defense high enough to reach 80% avoidance vs bosses, only to find out it's not possible:
It caps at 80/68/48% vs Normal/Lieutenants/Boss no matter how high you get.

[Rehwyn]

I actually just went back and checked some stats on Aveline end-game to see if I could actually get some good percentages.  This is with upgraded Heroic Aura and +8 to all stats due to runes/items (her gear could be better, but it's still quite good).

~~Stats with STR/CON build~~
Str - 42 | Fort: 32
Dex - 18 | 22% crit
Mag - 18 | 17% mag resist
Cun - 18 | 67% crit damage
Will - 24 | 170 stamina
Con - 66 | 508 HP
DPS - 92
Attack - 99/84/69%
Defense - 8/5/5%
Armor - 55/45/35%

~For Auto-Attacks
Effective HP vs Normal: 1227
Effective HP vs Lieut: 972
Effective HP vs Boss: 822

~For (Physical) Specials
Effective HP vs Normal: 1128
Effective HP vs Lieut: 924
Effective HP vs Boss: 781


~~Stats with a "Balanced" STR/CUN/CON build:~~
Str - 42 | Fort: 32
Dex - 18 | 22% crit
Mag - 18 | 17% mag resist
Cun - 44 | 93% crit damage
Will - 24 | 170 stamina
Con - 40 | 378 HP
DPS - 92
Attack - 99/84/69%
Defense - 58/38/18%
Armor - 55/45/35%

~For Auto-Attacks
Effective HP vs Normal: 2000
Effective HP vs Lieut: 1108
Effective HP vs Boss: 709

~For (Physical) Specials
Effective HP vs Normal: 840
Effective HP vs Lieut: 687
Effective HP vs Boss: 581


~~ Stats with a "Full Defense" STR/CUN/CON Build~~
Str - 42 | Fort: 32
Dex - 18 | 22% crit
Mag - 18 | 17% mag resist
Cun - 44 | 103% crit damage
Will - 24 | 170 stamina
Con - 30 | 328 HP
DPS - 92
Attack - 99/84/69%
Defense - 80/61/41%
Armor - 55/45/35%

~For Auto-Attacks~
Effective HP vs Normal: 3644
Effective HP vs Lieut: 1529
Effective HP vs Boss: 855

~For (Physical) Specials~
Effective HP vs Normal: 728
Effective HP vs Lieut: 596
Effective HP vs Boss: 504

~Conclusion~
First, I didn't include passive damage resists and stuff simly because both builds are affected by the same percentages. Since all healing in the game is percentage-based, effective HP is the only thing that really matters. As you can see, the cunning build is great vs normal and lieutenant auto-attacks, but roughly the same vs boss attacks. Against special attacks, it's depressingly inferior.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 19 mars 2011 - 01:00 .

[TG-Nalfen]

If cunning raised armor and dex defense it would be a whole different matter but you pretty summed it up, cunning for tanking doesn't work.

[CitizenSnips]

The only person I like giving cunning to is Varric. Thru just a few passive and sustained modes and because he doesn't have a DEX weapon requirement he can have as much attack % as you need with very little DEX required. Pumped up CUN will give cap him on normal mob defense and get him quite high against lieutenants and even bosses while still letting you put whatever points are needed into WIL and CON. With Isabella and Sebastion I have to balance my talent points between another 20 or so DEX but I usually don't bother with it since Varric seems so clearly superior to me.

For anyone else CON is far and away better. I can't imagine anyone arguing for CUN over CON since specials are unavoidable and the CUN requirement to get capped is just so high that I only have a puddle of attribute points to spend elsewhere.

Modifié par mushoops86anjyl, 19 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[ezrafetch]

Don't think it's even especially worth it too much for Rogues outside of lock-picking requirements. I know that a ton of Rogue abilities auto-crit making it useful in those instances but I would just stop at 40 for the hardest locks and then pump Dex. You can't spam talents like you could in DA:O, so there's just a lot more auto-attacking going on in general (plus, DW Rogues in DA:O were auto-attack bots to begin with). I'd rather have slightly less powerful criticals all the time than more powerful criticals only some of the time.

[zeypher]

weird as a duelist with high cunning i got 80% defense against a boss as well. defense runes wont help, you need the massive 40% defence from duelist for it to work and it works very well

[GodLikeDevil]

I have to say Shadow-Assassin Rogues need high cunning for the Critical Damage boost since they will be optimized for automatic critical hits anyway. In this instance, the best defense is a good offense. Also, if you have the Speed mode in the Specialist tree fully upgraded, cooldowns for all abilities are reduced, so you can spam abilities.

So I would say cunning for a Hawke Rogue is not a bad investment.

Other characters however should just focus on other stats.

[Colma]

ezrafetch wrote...

Don't think it's even especially worth it too much for Rogues outside of lock-picking requirements. I know that a ton of Rogue abilities auto-crit making it useful in those instances but I would just stop at 40 for the hardest locks and then pump Dex. You can't spam talents like you could in DA:O, so there's just a lot more auto-attacking going on in general (plus, DW Rogues in DA:O were auto-attack bots to begin with). I'd rather have slightly less powerful criticals all the time than more powerful criticals only some of the time.

By end game, my DW rogue had a 97% critical chance with all buffs/gear(rogue champion armor)/dexterity. I pumped cunning like no tomorrow, though not to make him a tank. Talk about some nightmare pwnage.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Cunning is a complete waste of investment on any class but a Rogue. On a Rogue though, 250% end game critical damage is what you invest in Cunning for. The 80% Defense is just a bonus.

[TG-Nalfen]

Just tried something

duelist bonus defense goes above the 80/60/40% cap
I have 80% to all def as a duelist

also they fixed the maker's sight potion with the 1.01 patch it gives the correct amount of stats and talent points.

Im gona try a nightmare run as duelist/assassin
and a no pause nightmare run as duelist/shadow

results soon

[TG-Nalfen]

Just killed last boss as duelist on a nightmare run; fenris was the biggest threat :/ by far (one shots anyone that got in range)

Video is compressing as i write this and will be on youtube sometimes in the next few hours.
This build while highly defensive sacrificed a ton of damage.

[Rehwyn]

TG-Nalfen wrote...

Just killed last boss as duelist on a nightmare run; fenris was the biggest threat :/ by far (one shots anyone that got in range)

Video is compressing as i write this and will be on youtube sometimes in the next few hours.
This build while highly defensive sacrificed a ton of damage.

Heh, that's my exact same problem on Nightmare as well. As a test, I tried turning off all his tactics and unequipping his sword before I left for the point of no return but he still is running around owning friend or foe. I forgot to set him to "Passive" behavior though... maybe that'd help.

[Arkalezth]

TG-Nalfen wrote...

also they fixed the maker's sight potion with the 1.01 patch it gives the correct amount of stats and talent points.

I can't find any patch, can someone link me to the download page?

Modifié par Arkalezth, 19 mars 2011 - 04:38 .

[Rehwyn]

Arkalezth wrote...

TG-Nalfen wrote...

also they fixed the maker's sight potion with the 1.01 patch it gives the correct amount of stats and talent points.

I can't find any patch, can someone link me to the download page?

http://social.biowar...age/da2-patches

Or, if you have the game on Steam, it's already installed. I actually got the patch from Steam before it was officially announced.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 19 mars 2011 - 04:38 .

[Arkalezth]

Thanks, Rehwyn. I don't see any mention to Maker's Sigh in the notes, though.

On-topic: Agreed with others about Cunning. I think a few points into Constitution are good for any class on Nightmare. You don't want an enemy assassin one-shotting you (BTW, I found out that, at least in my experience, if you're the last one standing (not including the dog), they don't go invisible).

However, what I hate most about them is the huge health bar. I'm ok with the high damage stabs, but at least make them easier to kill.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 19 mars 2011 - 04:44 .

[TG-Nalfen]

This is the link for the video, nowhere near a perfect run but it was 4am i was tired and it kinda works.

[Arkalezth]

You don't need to re-equip weapons after the resurrection bug. Hitting Escape twice works for me.

[Artillis22]

TG-Nalfen wrote...

Cunning as a defensive stat fails for anything but a Rogue; even on a rogue if you play on hard or nightmare it will not save your ass on anything except normal enemies and critters.

Don't bother investing into defense runes too much. Invest in Prosperity Runes till end game then Valliance rune + resist or Armor in the end game.

I tried raising defense high enough to reach 80% avoidance vs bosses, only to find out it's not possible:
It caps at 80/68/48% vs Normal/Lieutenants/Boss no matter how high you get.

Not true my first rogue (on normal difficulty) was a duelist assasins build and with talents and defence based auras from mage in group I had 80% vs normal 80% vs leuitenants and like 72% versus bosses for dodge chance with a base cunning I think around 31.  I was also sporting defence runes and gear, and if I got close enough to my tank for the defence bonus from their short range aura it was even higher.  My rogue was tanking bosses just fine on normal difficulty with thrown down the gauntlet.  And yes even the final bosses melle based special attacks missed at times.

Though this was on normal difficulty not sure how it would fly on harder settings.  My next rogue I'm going to try it again going to go with another duelist assasin build with isabella and verric and anders in my group, heavy rogue build on hard difficulty.  I'm not a fan of nightmare, it's not that I can't do nightmae with some class builds I just hate when fights take 3 hours to finish (yes im exagerating a little). :innocent:

But regaurdless the dodge ratios I think should be the same on any difficulty.  Difficulty doesn't affect the amount of dodge bonus you get from stats and equipment versus level of the monster since monsters levels still are built the same accross difficultys they just hit harder have more life and such.

Modifié par Artillis22, 20 mars 2011 - 10:34 .

[Count Viceroy]

Cunning is pointless unfortunatly. I had high hopes for it.