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The Second Playthrough Reevaluation


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#1
Foolsfolly

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This thread will be about how your second playthrough changed or underlined your original opinion of Dragon Age 2.

I'll start by saying that I my original rating for Dragon Age 2 was a solid 6/10.

I loved the graphic update, the combat, the characters, the dialogue, and many of the side quests were really well done. That wasn't the only good things about the game but it's the easiest to summarize.

The parts that really aggrovated me to no end was the lack of inventory management for my companions, the lack of talking to companions more often, and the plot.

The plot was weak; damn near non-existant. It lacked drive and focus. It lied to us at every turn. This was not the story of Hawke's rise ot power, Hawke never gets power. Even if you become Viscount you wouldn't have noticed you'd become Viscount until the achievement unlocked, it's just rolled into Varric's final cut-scene. Hawke isn't the most important person in all Thedas, that was Anders! He started the war, Hawke was just standing too close to Meredith and Orinso when it happened to ignore the event.

But upon replaying the game certain opinions have changed while others stand firm.

- Compairing Origins companions to DA2 companions isn't fair. I generally believed after my first playthrough that the Origins crew were better. I liked Varric and I thought Isabella was funny from time to time, and that was it. The second playthrough allowed me to appreciate the new guys more. I liked the contradictions in their personality and actions (Merrill), their drive and conviction (Anders, Aveline), and generally the fact that every companion is deeper than they originally appear. Granted, same can be said about the Origins crew (and they're funnier and more likable) but I no longer look at it as a black or white; Origins or 2 fashion. Both are good, just different.

-Side Quests don't bother me as much. The first playthrough I kept waiting for the plot to get kicked into high gear. I waited for Flemeth to show up with her army of mages, or the Qunari to lash out, or someone to launch an investigation into that forgotten thaig. SOMETHING to be plot important. A plot that only came to the fore once Anders blew up the Chantry at the end of the game. It was that waiting for a big plot to emerge that ruined any enjoyment of doing simple side-quests. Once that anxiety was removed and I knew the plot was thin, some of the side quests were more enjoyable this time through.

-I hate reusing maps even more. A second playthrough will only make your map fatigue worse.

- Playing as a Mage is no Different than playing as a Rogue/Warrior. You'd think a story that's focused on Mages vs Templar would reward/punish/change depending on if you're a mage or not. But there's no punishment for being a Blood Mage in a game that goes out of its way to demonize the demon-afflicted mages.

- Act Two is King. I enjoyed Act 2 a lot on my first playthrough but I enjoyed it even more on the second. From the moment the act kicks off to the moment you're standing over the body of the Arishok everything is golden. It had drive, real stakes, and when it was all said and done you had the horrible feeling that it was all so easily avoidable. It was great. Plus it has the mission with your mother...

- Friendship/Rivalry is Brilliant. Thought I enjoyed it the first time, LOVED it the second time. Half the group hated him and the other half loved me. I even had a rival romance with Merrill that actually worked slightly better than the Friendship romance, in my mind at least. More freedom to acting like you want Hawke to act and still have all the companions kicking around and not dead in a Circle tower or next to a pot of ashes.

- Hawke is Better than the Warden. First playthrough, eh. I'm playing the game. Hawke's likable enough. Second playthrough as a smart-ass Rogue and I see the new Dialogue system is great. Certain lines are changed to match your dialogue history, so the Rogue was funny and a smart-ass both in combat and in dialogue. It was so cool to see the change in character. I felt like this guy really was reflective of how I play, whereas the Warden was a blank. Hawke had a changing behavior and personality. I dig that.

- Romance is Out the Door. This is every DA2 romance: Flirt. Do their side quest. Flirt. Sex. Wait three years before you talk again. Do their side mission. Flirt. Wait four years before you talk again. Do their side mission. Tell them you love them before you charge the enemy. End. Wow...that...is sad. I had Merrill move into the mansion and whenever you click on her to talk she just says, "I think Sandal is watching me." Wow, that's romantic and deep. This is a problem for all characters any way since you rarely talk to them and when it's not strictly about a side quest its often about nothing at all. It felt like conversations as a whole took a step back from Origins where we asked tons of questions and really got to know the characters. Exception to this rule is Aveline, I get the feeling I know her quite well.

- Too Much Left for DLC/DA3. The mirror, Flemeth, the actual war we were talked up about having for DA2, the thaig below the Deep Roads, the Profane, the god child, the war with Orlais, everything about Sandal and the magic coming back, the fact that the 'great change' was coming 7 years ago and still hasn't shown up. It just feels like anything that could have led to the plot being interesting was cut out so some other project could be more interesting. As is we do side quests, stop the qunari, and then fight in the first battle between mages and templars. The climax of the story is like the Inciting Incident in a larger story and that screams 'they're milking me' to me.

- Nothing Changes. The game only takes place in Kirkwall yet nothing in Kirkwall changes. This makes the 3 year jumps feel more like day-and-night changes or possibly a week later. But not 3-4 year jumps. No one ages, no map changes, there's not even a change of seasons. What's the point of framing the narrative and giving year jumps if there's no difference between years other than which side-quests are availible? 

- The Plot is Still the Weakest Aspect of the Game. Even full well knowing that the plot is a thin one that relies almost entirely on side quests that are sorta related to the general theme of the plot this plot fell apart. It's just not enjoyable. It's too abrupt, we know too little about the heads of the different sides, and we're led too much to one side of the arguement. Basically, this time around I realized that if there's a canon ending it's siding with the Templars. The whole game has you interacting with blood mages and abominations, there's not a single good mage in the whole game. But there are good Templar like Thrusk who goes out of his way to help mages...and ends up killed by those he was helping. Meredith's paranoia is spawned by a plot object who's only purpose is to drive characters crazy whereas Orinso is actively researching and studying forbidden evil arts like Blood Magic and necromancy. Despite feeling really good about DA2 on my second playthrough the ending still left me feeling...nothing.

I sided with the Templar this time and got more information on the Knight-Commander like what happened to her sister and everything, but all that character development is wasted the moment the idol makes her crazy. And there's no closure to anything! The true climax of the game feels like it's the end of Act 2 because that at least had an ending of a storyline! What was wrapped up by the Act 3 finale? The idol? Looks like shards of it could still exist and we saw that a shard is just as powerful.

Overall, I liked the game better the second time. I liked the characters more, the side quests more, and it was less of a let down. But the plot is still too unfocused and the arguement is too one-sided (You never not get burned by letting a mage live).

My original rating of the game would have been 6/10 but I liked it better this time and I think the more reasonable rating would be a 7/10. Is it a big difference? I think so. It's not as bad as I originally thought but the story is still tattered shambles. I eagerly look forward to a DA3 perhaps this time with a central plot, I don't have to kill some great Ultimate Evil to have a plot. I just want something to work towards that makes the game enjoyable.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 18 mars 2011 - 11:50 .


#2
Harcken

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Agreed about the plot. I mean, come on Bioware, you have so many plot threads that you can throw us a bone or two by completing a couple of them. Please don't become another "A Song of Ice and Fire" and leave us in a never ending maelstrom of uncompleted/disjointed plots.

Closure is good (just keep a tiny thread hanging out there for the next iteration, not the entire ball of yarn).

Modifié par Harcken, 18 mars 2011 - 11:53 .


#3
AustinKain

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So basically you were all amped up for a direct copy of DA:O, but got a update to things so that BioWare can continue to move forward in the DA world. Now that you did a second playthrough with your fanboy ideas crushed you played the game as BioWare intended and enjoyed it more.

Seems that is happening alot these days.

#4
Foolsfolly

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AustinKain wrote...

So basically you were all amped up for a direct copy of DA:O, but got a update to things so that BioWare can continue to move forward in the DA world. Now that you did a second playthrough with your fanboy ideas crushed you played the game as BioWare intended and enjoyed it more.

Seems that is happening alot these days.


No. I played expecting a plot that would make Hawke this all-important character in the DA universe and when that plot failed to arrive I was disappointed. Knowing that plot isn't there made me enjoy the characters more, but I still disliked the story.

Good try, though.

#5
someon7x

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AustinKain wrote...

So basically you were all amped up for a direct copy of DA:O, but got a update to things so that BioWare can continue to move forward in the DA world. Now that you did a second playthrough with your fanboy ideas crushed you played the game as BioWare intended and enjoyed it more.

Seems that is happening alot these days.


Really? All the negative complaints are derived from user error?

I didn't realize there was a *wrong* way to press the A button for 40 hours until the credits roll...

#6
Foolsfolly

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I will say this about the whole 'wanting a direct copy of DA:O.' Had this game been from any other company and had not had the Dragon Age name attached to it's plot is still too weak. There's no central drive or goal and that hurts the game.

#7
AlexXIV

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Well I'd geving the game a 8/10 rating in my first play through and the 7/10 in my second.

Reason is simple, in my first play I didn't know how my choices change the story. I didn't go back and reload either, just accepted whatever happens. So at the end I was sort of proud of myself because it wasn't all that bad.

Then, second playthrough. I tried to make everything different which lead to the exact same result. Now I wasn't that proud anymore. I was more like ... wtf? In my second playthrough I sided with the templars so I at least got Cullen to kneel before me, but that was about the only positive thing in my second playthrough.

What I really like about DA2 are the companions and the interaction. Especially that you can let companions overtake in conversations, that's a path Bioware should continue by any means. Companions interacting if Hawke talks to an npc, maybe some comments, maybe two companions discussing. All these things you can't get in most games. That's the strong point of Bioware and they should by all means build on it.

And Bioware, never ever kill my hero's mother.

#8
Sticksandstones987

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I couldn't even finish a second playthrough because I was so bored with the game after Act 1.....

#9
DrowNoble

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I have to agree that the plot in DA2 was very weak. It was good in short bursts but the overall lack of The Big Baddie really meant that I'm aimlessly wandering most of the time. The lack of location variety didn't help either, going to the same cave map dozens of times got old real quick.

Also was disappointed that the Eluvian mirror story with Merrill went no where. You go through all those quests, the Keeper sacrifices herself for Merril and the dern thing never works? Seriously Bioware? Not even any mention of Morrigan and her mirror either which I was hoping it would lead in to. It's almost like the writers ran out of time and just stopped where they left off.

#10
Nathan Redgrave

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You can have a rival romance with Merril?

Interesting...

#11
Foolsfolly

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AlexXIV wrote...

Well I'd geving the game a 8/10 rating in
my first play through and the 7/10 in my second.

Reason is
simple, in my first play I didn't know how my choices change the story. I
didn't go back and reload either, just accepted whatever happens. So at
the end I was sort of proud of myself because it wasn't all that bad.

Then,
second playthrough. I tried to make everything different which lead to
the exact same result. Now I wasn't that proud anymore. I was more like
... wtf? In my second playthrough I sided with the templars so I at
least got Cullen to kneel before me, but that was about the only
positive thing in my second playthrough.

What I really like about
DA2 are the companions and the interaction. Especially that you can let
companions overtake in conversations, that's a path Bioware should
continue by any means. Companions interacting if Hawke talks to an npc,
maybe some comments, maybe two companions discussing. All these things
you can't get in most games. That's the strong point of Bioware and they
should by all means build on it.

And Bioware, never ever kill my
hero's mother.


The Companion interacting and the fact
that Companions had motivations other than just serving the player were
great! I enjoyed what the Companions had to
say and I enjoyed that they'd do unexpected things (Isabella in Act 2,
Anders in Act 3) that were totally in
character.

The character work on DA2 is really solid.


DrowNoble wrote...

I have to agree that the plot in DA2 was very weak. It was good in short bursts but the overall lack of The Big Baddie really meant that I'm aimlessly wandering most of the time. The lack of location variety didn't help either, going to the same cave map dozens of times got old real quick.

Also was disappointed that the Eluvian mirror story with Merrill went no where. You go through all those quests, the Keeper sacrifices herself for Merril and the dern thing never works? Seriously Bioware? Not even any mention of Morrigan and her mirror either which I was hoping it would lead in to. It's almost like the writers ran out of time and just stopped where they left off.


The game has a very selective memory when it comes to certain plots and plot points. We meet a thing called the Profane that lives deeper in the Deep Roads than the Darkspawn and we find a red lyrium idol....and no one ever mentions that. That was a huge discovery and nothing!

Well, at least Finding Nathaniel takes place as a follow-up, but I missed that quest the first time because I didn't know doing Fool's Gold somehow bugs out Finding Nathaniel. Although, that quest doesn't really answer anything either, just that the Wardens are interested in what we found down there.

Someone should be. Why could the plot dovetail more towards that discovery. Mages wanting to explore and use the raw power and knowledge down there and the Templar saying its too dangerous? Something to acknowledge the plot points.

Merrill's whole plot though is busted. You get no closure and it's very likely that you slaughter her whole clan without her saying one word about it.

EDIT:

And yeah, you can have a Rival Romance with Merrill. After enabling her throughout my first play and only getting a slaughtered clan of elves for my trouble I decided to try to keep her out of Blood Magic and the mirror.

She hated me....and then I kept that item away from her. We talked at her house after that and she screamed about how she never wanted to see me again.

Then she showed up at my house to apologize...one thing led to another and then we're both naked on the bed wondering what the hell that meant. Both my character and myself were wondering that.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 19 mars 2011 - 01:25 .


#12
Chou Monster

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'Tis a transitional game, I think. It stands up well enough in its own right and is a lot more fun than some other RPGs I can remember...but really, it's a part of a bigger picture, I think. Maybe I have too much faith in Bioware? I think not....but it's a good thing it's just a hobby anyways, just in case XD

I'm in Act 2 of my second play-through at the moment and have found that if I stop to smell the proverbial roses a bit more...take my time instead of chasing a big-grand plot...I find that the plot itself is in the details of your interactions with characters, almost as if DA2 is as much a character study as it is an RPG.

#13
Foolsfolly

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Chou Monster wrote...

'Tis a transitional game, I think. It stands up well enough in its own right and is a lot more fun than some other RPGs I can remember...but really, it's a part of a bigger picture, I think. Maybe I have too much faith in Bioware? I think not....but it's a good thing it's just a hobby anyways, just in case XD

I'm in Act 2 of my second play-through at the moment and have found that if I stop to smell the proverbial roses a bit more...take my time instead of chasing a big-grand plot...I find that the plot itself is in the details of your interactions with characters, almost as if DA2 is as much a character study as it is an RPG.


THAT!

That's exactly one of the things I was trying to state. When I first played the game I was really looking for the main plot, waiting for it, expecting it to be something big becaue of all the foreshadowing in the DLCs and the awesome trailers.

And we all know how that ended. But in the second play....without worrying about the plot. I enjoyed it because of the characters and the dialogue and some of the side quests were even more enjoyable.

It doesn't change the fact that the plot is really weak but it does make me enjoy the game better now than I did. The character work is really solid.

#14
Noatz

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You call it weak, what you really mean is it wasn't what you've come to expect from Bioware games. Which is to say, you play an initially downtrodden but ultimately triumphant pipedream of a character who spends the majority of the game travelling to random locations recruiting allies before crushing a faceless incoherent force of evil in an epic showdown in which some of your allies can die if you didn't complete all the game's sidequests.

#15
Chou Monster

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I'd have to disagree with the plot being 'weak'.

Noatz has the right idea. It's different.

I do feel like Hawke is pipedream. In fact, I'm happy with my first play-through ending...she chose to live on the run with the man she fell in love with. At least there, she'll have something real to hold on to. Maybe one of the morals of DA2 is what the Viscount actually embodies and expresses very well...that titles, influence...responsibility, they are impossibly sticky and messy things in which oftentimes does not lie a happy ending.

I'm actually not sure what will happen to my rogue Hawke, yet...but I do know that whatever provides me with this much thought and inspiration for writing/storytelling of my own is not something which is weak or inferior. It's just...different.

#16
vigna

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I'm playing through my second time now. All I can say is I kinda dig female Hawke..her ice blue eyes are chilling too. Buttttttttttt...Act one is such a grinding chore the second time. It is also making me like Aveline less and not more. And Aveline was one of my faves.

#17
Foolsfolly

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I still hold that the plot is weak. It just a series of events over a series of years. The only time there's plot development is at the end of acts. Act 1 gave us the idol plot device; Act 2 gave us a power vacuum which escalated the threat (although the Revered Mother's death was more important than the Viscount's death); and Act 3 has the Chantry blow up.

It's the first part of the story. We already knew the Chantry's in pieces at the beginning of the game. There's no central motivation for Hawke or the companions. There's no central antagonist (instead there's two crazy people fighting and hundreds/thousands of innocents caught in the middle).

Things just happen. You do all those side quests not while advancing anything but just because there's a marker over their heads.

I just don't think that works. Act 1 is so boring. Act 2 is so much better because there's a storyline. Act 3 is pathetic. It's two missions, a bunch of side missions, and then the finale which doesn't feel like the climax of a story. Then it just ends. Nothing answered. Only a few things explained.

I love the characters. I love the dialogue. I love the combat system. I just cannot get behind a story that has no story. There needs to be a motivation that carries the characters forward. Instead every companion has their side-quest trees and Hawke's an errand boy until Anders goes terrorist on the city.

And vigna: the worst mission in the game was one of my favorites. It's Aveline's second side quest. That whole thing passing notes, drinking at the bar, and then clearing out the Coast...that was quirky and fun the first time and boring and tedious the second time. A big reason, I think, is the long load zones between them.

#18
Noatz

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Foolsfolly wrote...

I still hold that the plot is weak. It just a series of events over a series of years.


I did read your entire post to make sure I wasn't taking this out of context but...

This is what we call a story.

You can describe anything as that from Dragon Age: Origins to Brideshead Revisited.

#19
Deadlysyns

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okay if you watch the maps Carefully some things in Kirkwall Change the Foundry District gets new walls not much but its there

#20
Foolsfolly

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I know a story is a series of events! I'm talking about things like clearing the streets of gangs, returning lost lockets to people, and picking flowers. I know that side quests are a part of RPG games, and I love side quests!

But this game is 90% side quests. The entire first act has one story mission, the Deep Roads!

The story missions are so few and far between you can play for days without touching on another (not days in a sitting but days as in 2-4 hour sittings, obviously).

#21
Foolsfolly

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Deadlysyns wrote...

okay if you watch the maps Carefully some things in Kirkwall Change the Foundry District gets new walls not much but its there


Really? What an odd thing to change. I need to watch for that now.

#22
awwnuts07

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I'm almost at the end of act 1 on my second play through, and I'm DEFINITELY enjoying it more this round. I have a propensity to blast through rpgs on my first play through just so I can get a general feel for the world. 2nd and 3rd play through is when I soak everything up. So far, I'm very pleased.

Since I'm old enough to have saved the world/defeated unspeakable evil countless times, "epic" plots don't feel "epic" to me anymore (not even DA:O). Hawke's story isn't epic, but it is very personal, which I like. He/She isn't the "Chosen One", but instead an important person who made a difference at one point in this universe's history. +1

#23
Deadlysyns

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Deadlysyns wrote...

okay if you watch the maps Carefully some things in Kirkwall Change the Foundry District gets new walls not much but its there


Really? What an odd thing to change. I need to watch for that now.

yes you know where the Scafolding is near the foundry District well they build a wall thingy there its kinda pointless but its funny 

#24
Cooperthehusky

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The second playthrough is interesting, in the way the story can be altered once you know how the main story will progress, trying to avoid some of the side quests/companion quests adversely affecting the main plot and getting as much out of the ending as possible, well, trying to get that bad taste out at least.

After getting to the end, I found some of those early choices were quite influential, but ultimately you get fairly well railroaded into the same end game, my main dislike is the fact I prefer the ideals of the Qun to the Chantry, and with a mage sister in the Circle, I found it nigh impossible to side with the Templers, whether Bethany lives or not, and despise Blood mages at the same instant! Neither act 2 or 3 ends with any satisfaction.

Ultimately, once you resign to the fact that Hawke is no Hero, just a pawn in others schemes, and the choices he/she makes don't really affect the beginning of the war, only who survives the opening battle.

Still, the references to the warden and Hawke in the end tend to suggest we have only played a side story to the main plot of the Dragon Age series, I just hope we get more insight into why the two protagonists have disappeared and who the ultimate enemy could possibly be, my guess is Reapers.

Modifié par Cooperthehusky, 19 mars 2011 - 05:58 .


#25
Deadlysyns

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Cooperthehusky wrote...

The second playthrough is interesting, in the way the story can be altered once you know how the main story will progress, trying to avoid some of the side quests/companion quests adversely affecting the main plot and getting as much out of the ending as possible, well, trying to get that bad taste out at least.

After getting to the end, I found some of those early choices were quite influential, but ultimately you get fairly well railroaded into the same end game, my main dislike is the fact I prefer the ideals of the Qun to the Chantry, and with a mage sister in the Circle, I found it nigh impossible to side with the Templers, whether Bethany lives or not, and despise Blood mages at the same instant! Neither act 2 or 3 ends with any satisfaction.

Ultimately, once you resign to the fact that Hawke is no Hero, just a pawn in others schemes, and the choices he/she makes don't really affect the beginning of the war, only who survives the opening battle.

Still, the references to the warden and Hawke in the end tend to suggest we have only played a side story to the main plot of the Dragon Age series, I just hope we get more insight into why the two protagonists have disappeared and who the ultimate enemy could possibly be, my guess is Reapers.

DA2 is the actual intro to the series i would say