26 réponses à ce sujet

[sassperella]

 I have been reading the Anders threads and debates and vitriol and hate for his actions and it occurred to me that Isabella is as bad if not worse, yet she does not come in for such hate.

Due to her direct actions the Qunari kill hundreds of people in Kirkwall all innocent- she in essence started that war as did Anders the mage/templar one- and her driving purpose isn't freedom for the oppressed or anything so pure it's personal greed. Why does she get away with it when Anders doesn't?

The answer is one word... terrorism. But at the end of the day Isabella is just as guilty if not more so as her purposes were less pure, if you're going to condemn Anders then you should also condemn Isabella and turn her over to the Qun. It just shows that it's not the death of innocents that drives people to condemn Anders, it's the use of a very non-fantasy event 9/11 to achieve his ends, an event that is at the forefront of a lot of people's minds and will cloud any judgement made.

[Conway044]

Isabella steals a book from the Orleasians. The Qunari try to steal it from her on the open sea, fail to do so and end up ship wrecked. They never tell anyone why they remain in Kirkwall or explain what they need to be 'allowed' to leave. When they fail to recover the book, they decided to attack Kirkwall and murder a bunch of civillians for no apparent reason. I guess the Arishok is angry being the motivating factor there.

Anders destroys a massive temple in the middle Hightown, killing all the chantry members and any of the faithful inside and showering all of Kirkwall with rubble and fire.

If you can't see the difference between the two incidents, you just don't want to.

[sassperella]

Isabella knows why they are there, she does nothing as the situation falls apart, she IS to blame.

I'm not condoning Anders behaviour I'm stating that Isabella is responsible for the death of innocents also. She is given the option of coming clean earlier just before she runs away and going to the Arishok. If she had the massacre would have been avoided.

But terrorism is such an emotionally weighted topic that it overshadows any other transgression by any one else however bad that might be.

[dewayne31]

Isabela was wrong i'll say that. but in the end she did right thing. as for the Qumari they started the war.they could of followed isabela but instead they started a war in kirkwall it was their choice. i almost turned isbela over to them. but the airstok killed vizcount in cold blood. to me that act of war. i was willing to have kirkwall punish her. but he went to far

[sassperella]

yes they started the war, but it's obviously on the cards when you speak to isabella and ask her to come with you and bring the book. She betrays you and runs off, she has to take some responsibility.

[Ryzaki]

Did the right thing? When? She never came back in my game. Just ditched and left me a flimsy note.

I'm still upset that I can't kill her D:

Stupid plotshield.

[sassperella]

If you have over 50% friendship with her she comes back before the Arishok fight to 'do the right thing'. But it's too little too late in my book half the city lies dead because of her.

[Ryzaki]

sassperella wrote...

If you have over 50% friendship with her she comes back before the Arishok fight to 'do the right thing'. But it's too little too late in my book half the city lies dead because of her.

I can't be friends with her. She keeps being wishy washy and it's irritating. It's like Morrigan but I don't have gifts to placate her with. And I'm not warping my characterization so I can be friends with her. 

[MachDelta]

Yes, it's her fault that the Qunari are there, but I don't believe she's to blame for any innocent lives lost. The Qunari sat there perfectly happy for years before other events (spurred by other idiots) started the real bloodshed. If anything, Isabela is just a hired gun trying to do her job. There's little moral responsibility on her part because if she had turned down the job, someone else would have taken it.

[sassperella]

MachDelta wrote...

Yes, it's her fault that the Qunari are there, but I don't believe she's to blame for any innocent lives lost. The Qunari sat there perfectly happy for years before other events (spurred by other idiots) started the real bloodshed. If anything, Isabela is just a hired gun trying to do her job. There's little moral responsibility on her part because if she had turned down the job, someone else would have taken it.

But when you go to get the relic back, it's clear the Qunari are thinking of war and you try to convince Isabella to take the relic to them to prevent trouble. She says she will then runs away with it. In that instance she knows her actions may have dire consequences but she does it anyway.  

[dewayne31]

Then The Airstok should been held for murder of the vizcount. he still pays for it though.in my book his action far out wiegh isabela anyday.

[DistractedFool]

Sure her actions were wrong but when it comes to the end of the day really, anyone would do what she did to save their own skin. Humans themselves are selfish greedy people. The Qunari notice that and probably would of came back eventually to cleanse the filth. Hell even giving the book back to the Arishock probably wouldn't have stopped him from sending his men to rampage through Kirkwall.

[Maria Caliban]

sassperella wrote...

... Isabella is as bad if not worse...

Isabela is a thief. Anders is a mass murderer.

1. If I steal something from you and you get so angry that you decide to murder all your co-workers, I am not at fault.

2. The Arishok didn't attack the Keep and murder the Viscount because of the relic. As you apparently didn't pay attention to Act 2, let me summarize why the Arishok did this: The torture and murder of his peace delegation, the murder of a convert, and the city guard demanding the return of the elves he'd granted religious asylum to.

None of which had anything to do with Isabela.

Had these things not happened, he'd have stayed in his compound with the rest of the qunari until he learned that the relic had surfaced in Antiva.


I don't think anyone has ever said Isabela is in the right but suggesting what she did is the same as blowing up a church is simply incorrect.

[Nokternul]

I don't see how you can blame Isabela for the Arishok and Qunari making a choice to murder people and try to take over the city; no one forced them to respond that way regardless of the situation.

[hoorayforicecream]

A couple of things about this:

#1. The issue at the Qunari compound that needed attention at the time wasn't because of the relic. The Qunari decided to attack because the Arishok reached his limit when it came to dealing with the people of Kirkwall. The Arishok's attitude toward the Kirkwallers had nothing to do with the relic at all.

#2. Sure, if Isabela had given back the relic first, it might not have happened. However, there's a few things wrong with this: She didn't *have* the relic until the Arishok had already made plans to conquer Kirkwall. She didn't know where it was until she and Hawke found it.

Isabela took the relic and ran, yes. However, what did she think was going to happen next? Did she really think that the Qunari were going to go on a rampage and destroy the city? Or did she probably guess that they'd continue to sit in their compound (like they had been for 4 years) until they got wind of it, and probably try to chase her down again?

Ultimately, if she has a good influence, she can make the right choice. But inherently, she's a selfish person first and foremost. Isabela is partially to blame for it, but isn't entirely culpable. It isn't like she was the one killing people; the Qunari had more than enough culpability on their own.

Anders, likewise, isn't entirely culpable. However, the general difference is that Isabela can be redeemed through Hawke's treatment of her, but Anders can't. He made his choice, however tragic it was, and there's nothing that can be done. In Isabela's case, there are lots of what ifs. If she had found it earlier and ran, the Qunari would have found out, chased her, and nobody would have been killed. If Isabela hadn't found it, the Qunari would have rampaged anyway. Anders did it all on his own. He planned on igniting the war through his actions, and there are no what-ifs about it. He did it purposely to force the conflict, and there's really nothing anyone could have done about it. Since Isabela's case is both murkier and redeemable compared to Ander's clear-cut willful terrorism, she gets a pass from most folks.

[nodice]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

A couple of things about this:

#1. The issue at the Qunari compound that needed attention at the time wasn't because of the relic. The Qunari decided to attack because the Arishok reached his limit when it came to dealing with the people of Kirkwall. The Arishok's attitude toward the Kirkwallers had nothing to do with the relic at all.

#2. Sure, if Isabela had given back the relic first, it might not have happened. However, there's a few things wrong with this: She didn't *have* the relic until the Arishok had already made plans to conquer Kirkwall. She didn't know where it was until she and Hawke found it.

Isabela took the relic and ran, yes. However, what did she think was going to happen next? Did she really think that the Qunari were going to go on a rampage and destroy the city? Or did she probably guess that they'd continue to sit in their compound (like they had been for 4 years) until they got wind of it, and probably try to chase her down again?

Ultimately, if she has a good influence, she can make the right choice. But inherently, she's a selfish person first and foremost. Isabela is partially to blame for it, but isn't entirely culpable. It isn't like she was the one killing people; the Qunari had more than enough culpability on their own.

Anders, likewise, isn't entirely culpable. However, the general difference is that Isabela can be redeemed through Hawke's treatment of her, but Anders can't. He made his choice, however tragic it was, and there's nothing that can be done. In Isabela's case, there are lots of what ifs. If she had found it earlier and ran, the Qunari would have found out, chased her, and nobody would have been killed. If Isabela hadn't found it, the Qunari would have rampaged anyway. Anders did it all on his own. He planned on igniting the war through his actions, and there are no what-ifs about it. He did it purposely to force the conflict, and there's really nothing anyone could have done about it. Since Isabela's case is both murkier and redeemable compared to Ander's clear-cut willful terrorism, she gets a pass from most folks.

Indeed. Thank you.

BTW, if you blame Isabela for the conflict, you can say Isabela was the reason Hawke became the champion as well.

[PPF65]

Isabela is not even close to as bad as Anders. If he was going to destroy something, why not destroy the gallows, after using the various underground passages to get all of the good people out, and making sure Meredith didn't know she needed to escape.

Isabela stole something. Was stealing the book a good thing? No. But she didn't start the violence.

Sister/Mother Petrice was the biggest catalyst of the qunari attack. If she had left the whole Saemus issue to more reasonable people, things would have been better.

Its Isabela's fault that the qunari didn't get their relic, but that is where her responsibility ends.

Modifié par PPF65, 19 mars 2011 - 10:05 .

[Thiefy]

Honestly, I really blame the whole problem on Isabella. It wasn't all her fault, no but a lot of problems arose as a result of her own actions. If she was so worried about Castion, why not take the Champion from the get go to meet him and shank him? Plostshield, yeah, whatever.

Anders only blew up the Chantry because the problems with the templats escalated. They only escalated because Meredith was in power. If the Viscount was alive, she would not be in power. The Qunari killed the Viscount. Their purpose for being in Kirkwall was Isabella's theft.

So no, she wasn't directly responsible but she did have a big enough hand at starting all the trouble. The reason why people like her more than Anders is that she has a nice rack, and the guys get the heebee-jeebees when Anders flirts with them.

[Raanz]

Conway044 wrote...

Isabella steals a book from the Orleasians. The Qunari try to steal it from her on the open sea, fail to do so and end up ship wrecked. They never tell anyone why they remain in Kirkwall or explain what they need to be 'allowed' to leave. When they fail to recover the book, they decided to attack Kirkwall and murder a bunch of civillians for no apparent reason. I guess the Arishok is angry being the motivating factor there.

Anders destroys a massive temple in the middle Hightown, killing all the chantry members and any of the faithful inside and showering all of Kirkwall with rubble and fire.

If you can't see the difference between the two incidents, you just don't want to.

QFT

[cglasgow]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

So no, she wasn't directly responsible but she did have a big enough hand at starting all the trouble. The reason why people like her more than Anders is that she has a nice rack, and the guys get the heebee-jeebees when Anders flirts with them.

Yeah, accuse people who disagree with you of being homophobic and morons who only care about boobage, that's classy.

There's something called a 'reasonable man' test in law, when you're trying to determine whether or not someone's negligence is actually responsible for a given disaster.   It basically takes the form of 'Would a reasonable person actually expect outcome B to logically follow from action A?'

If I detonate a giant bomb in a church, I should logically expect people to die.   If I steal a book, I should... logically expect someone to declare war on an entire city six years later?  Ummm... no.

I should logically expect someone to chase me for their book, yes.   And to beat me up or kill me once they catch me, and take their book back.   And maybe even ask the local authorities to be on the lookout for me as a wanted thief.   And a lot of other things.

But war?  No, that was the Arishok's decision, not Isabela's.   And it was not a reasonable reaction on the Arishok's part; it was epically violent over-reaction, past the point of any justification.

It's like if you take somebody's wallet, and that guy was a paranoid schizophrenic going off of his meds, and he sees his missing wallet as "proof" that the evil space alien lizard people have finally found him, and therefore his only option is to grab a machine gun and kill as many people in the local shopping mall as he possibly can... you're guilty of pickpocketing, but you're not guilty of being a crazy murderer.  He's guilty of being a crazy murderer.   You had nothing to do with that other guy's beliefs that killing tons of uninvolved people was a 'just' reaction to his troubles; you just had the bad luck of being wrong thief, wrong place, wrong time.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[cglasgow]

Belated afterthought: I mean, hell, by the same 'It's all Isabella's fault!' logic, the entire templar/mage atrocity is all Hawke's fault, because she went on that Deep Roads expedition and found the idol. Bad, bad Hawke! You're responsible for all the things crazy templar lady did!

... oh wait, you're not. Because you didn't have magical 'tell the future' powers that would let you know in advance that putting your paws on ancient artifact A would somehow inevitably lead to disastrous war B.

[Thiefy]

tldr.

I didn't accuse anyone of being homophobic, I just said that most guys would prefer her to Anders for obvious reasons 1)she's hot 2)a lot of feeling uncomfortable with a dude hitting on them. Neither of which is saying they hate gay people.

Anyway, Isabella knew why they were that and it was causing trouble. She could have fixed it but didn't. No, she didn't know EXACTLY what would happen but she knew enough that once sh*t hit the fan, it would hit hard. That's also why she abandons the group - to save her own skin.

[cglasgow]

Look, if the only person you're trying to convince is you, why are you even posting?  You can talk to yourself without needing your keyboard.   This message forum is for people to attempt to talk to each other, only you're all 'tldr!' whenever you hear something you don't already agree with.

PS: By the time Isabella actually has any book to give back, the Arishok has already started his war.   You've only been told this repeatedly.   But of course, you're too busy pretending not to hear people.

And yes, I'm being rude; you're the one who went all 'anybody who likes Isabella is all just because they're creeped out by gay Anders!', which was incredibly classless to say, and I'm not patient enough to put up with that without snarking back a little.

Modifié par cglasgow, 19 mars 2011 - 11:15 .

[Thiefy]

Dude, you are being way too sensitive. I'm not trying to convince anyone, least of all you, but as you said this is a discussion area and that's what I'm doing. Maybe you are on your period or something but I didn't attack anyone with any kind of sexual orientation propaganda, so I don't know why you keep bringing that up. I made two valid points about why SOME guys would like Isabella more than Anders (and as result, bash Anders more than her), disagree with it or not but that doesn't mean I'm going around calling people homophobes. Seriously if you get that worked up over one tiny sentence, you might want to pull that wedgy out of your crack, take a few Midol, and go breathe some fresh air.

[cglasgow]

*hits the 'Report This Post' button*

OK, folks, we'll let the admins sort this one out. I recommend everyone else join me on a nice round of "Do Not Feed The Troll".