Not to lose the last of your family? One of the many reasons my warrior sided with the mages is to do everything in my power to keep my little sister safe.
Mage Hawke siding with templars?
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Wikal
, mars 19 2011 02:09
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#27
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 03:45
madlily
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oh i sided with the mages on my first play thru as a rogue...
I thought it would make for quite interesting gameplay to justify turning on mages as a mage myself.. turned out not to be so hard after all...
Plus with all the stuff happening to my mage Hawke, she chose not to go down the blood magic route so I figured anyone that turned to blood magic and demons to get by should be put down
I thought it would make for quite interesting gameplay to justify turning on mages as a mage myself.. turned out not to be so hard after all...
Plus with all the stuff happening to my mage Hawke, she chose not to go down the blood magic route so I figured anyone that turned to blood magic and demons to get by should be put down
#28
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 04:12
FastimusRex
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Both the mages and templars are at fault. A codex excerpt written by Brother Genitivi himself says something to the effect of, "Templars are chosen for their martial aptitude and fervor toward the Maker. Not necessarily their moral caliber." And, some might argue that Meredith was only corrupted due to the influence of the idol. However, the codex entry on her portrays her as being quite ambitions. So much so that she dethroned the previous viscount AND former Knight-Commander, thus granting herself prestige and position. The Chantry had no choice but to elevate her, regardless if she deserved it.
The second point would be to say that mages, being what they are, are more at risk of 'demonic' possession and should be treated as such. Orsino, Grace, Decimus had no second thoughts about using blood magic. Orsino's action may be forgivable, that doesn't change the fact that ultimately he lost himself for an ill-conceived plan. I much prefer how the Qunari treat their mages vs. locking them up in the tower with minor freedoms. Minor freedoms breeds contempt. Either let them free, completely. Or control them (mages) utterly, at birth.
Personally, the best reason/s for a mage Hawke has been addressed. Either you're a self-serving, power hungry and cowardly and just want to save your own skin or you're tired of the weakness of other mages and strive to be exemplary. As an example to other mages AND the Chantry itself through their actions. Similar to how a Hero of Fereldan circle mage is treated in DA:A.
Also, to reiterate, anyone know the pro-Templar quests and where they might be gleaned?
The second point would be to say that mages, being what they are, are more at risk of 'demonic' possession and should be treated as such. Orsino, Grace, Decimus had no second thoughts about using blood magic. Orsino's action may be forgivable, that doesn't change the fact that ultimately he lost himself for an ill-conceived plan. I much prefer how the Qunari treat their mages vs. locking them up in the tower with minor freedoms. Minor freedoms breeds contempt. Either let them free, completely. Or control them (mages) utterly, at birth.
Personally, the best reason/s for a mage Hawke has been addressed. Either you're a self-serving, power hungry and cowardly and just want to save your own skin or you're tired of the weakness of other mages and strive to be exemplary. As an example to other mages AND the Chantry itself through their actions. Similar to how a Hero of Fereldan circle mage is treated in DA:A.
Also, to reiterate, anyone know the pro-Templar quests and where they might be gleaned?
#29
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 04:16
Medhia Nox
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Mages are not a species - there's no reason to feel a connection with someone else just because he does magic. That's what makes Anders a psycho. He thinks he's helping "all" mages - when he can't possibly know what "all" mages want. He's forcing mages to want what he wants - and what's worse, he thinks he's a hero for doing it.
I can tell you at least two in game mages that don't want what he wants. Wynne and Irving. And a third being any mage I play.
As a mage I want reform - but not lawlessness for mages. I despise all blood magic with a passion - and understand that abominations are a real fear, not something made up by the Templars. Uldred would be an excellent lesson of what happens to mages when they feel the need to express their power - while the Hero of Ferelden freeing the wizards of the Ferelden Circle would be a great example of what a good mage can do to free wizards.
I already despised Merril and Anders for being a Blood Mage and Abomination respectively.
In truth - I sided with the mages because I originally thought Annulment was too much - then, while working with the templars I saw that every mage in the tower resorted to Blood Magic - and Orsino, a man I thought was the last reasonable spark for mages in Kirkwall (beside myself) turns to blood magic and admits assisting the man who killed my mother.
No - Annulment now - reform later.
I can tell you at least two in game mages that don't want what he wants. Wynne and Irving. And a third being any mage I play.
As a mage I want reform - but not lawlessness for mages. I despise all blood magic with a passion - and understand that abominations are a real fear, not something made up by the Templars. Uldred would be an excellent lesson of what happens to mages when they feel the need to express their power - while the Hero of Ferelden freeing the wizards of the Ferelden Circle would be a great example of what a good mage can do to free wizards.
I already despised Merril and Anders for being a Blood Mage and Abomination respectively.
In truth - I sided with the mages because I originally thought Annulment was too much - then, while working with the templars I saw that every mage in the tower resorted to Blood Magic - and Orsino, a man I thought was the last reasonable spark for mages in Kirkwall (beside myself) turns to blood magic and admits assisting the man who killed my mother.
No - Annulment now - reform later.
#30
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 04:16
madlily
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good response Rex, and not sure where the pro templar quests would be at..
#31
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:18
FastimusRex
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In response to Medhia Nox:
I agree for the most part. However, mages, in essence, are a separate species. Rather, they're treated as such. You can do magic. You are capable of great (being subjective) things. Things greater than the rogue, warrior or what-have-you is able to do.
I dislike Anders for all the reasons you dislike him. I do think that he is quite arrogant, thinking he could absorb and contain a spirit of pure Justice, but I wouldn't consider him an abomination. At least not in the typical sense of the word. As for Merril, oddly (perhaps hypocritically) enough, I find her usage of 'blood magic' to be forgivable. The elves have lost their ways, she attempted to reform through the usage of spirits; or at least regain old knowledge. She went about it in the 'wrong' way, though. The spirit she consorted with was a pride demon. Atl east as the Chantry believes. Then again, if I find her forgivable, does that make Huon forgivable? No, he took it too far. Ultimately, Merril gave up her ways. Then again, I don't think she was ever a full blood mage. Is some one who consorts with ANY spirit of the Fade a blood mage / 'bad' mage?
I agree for the most part. However, mages, in essence, are a separate species. Rather, they're treated as such. You can do magic. You are capable of great (being subjective) things. Things greater than the rogue, warrior or what-have-you is able to do.
I dislike Anders for all the reasons you dislike him. I do think that he is quite arrogant, thinking he could absorb and contain a spirit of pure Justice, but I wouldn't consider him an abomination. At least not in the typical sense of the word. As for Merril, oddly (perhaps hypocritically) enough, I find her usage of 'blood magic' to be forgivable. The elves have lost their ways, she attempted to reform through the usage of spirits; or at least regain old knowledge. She went about it in the 'wrong' way, though. The spirit she consorted with was a pride demon. Atl east as the Chantry believes. Then again, if I find her forgivable, does that make Huon forgivable? No, he took it too far. Ultimately, Merril gave up her ways. Then again, I don't think she was ever a full blood mage. Is some one who consorts with ANY spirit of the Fade a blood mage / 'bad' mage?
#32
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:25
Taure
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I was a mage Hawke and I sided with the Templars. I was quite happy with my choice, to be honest. I mean, the mages within DA2 are all raving lunatics who turn to blood magic at the first sign of trouble?
Yeah, no thanks. Templars ftw!
Yeah, no thanks. Templars ftw!
#33
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:26
Medhia Nox
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To FastimusRex
No - Wynne, for example, took in a Spirit of Faith - but she was constantly vigilant by her own admission that it might corrupt her. She remarks several times that she might be an abomination. However - while suspicious of her, the fact that she abhors blood magic and never once speaks a nasty word about anything won me over.
A mage should be held under suspicion - a mage who takes in a demon/spirit doubly so - and a mage who resorts to blood magic ever, I gotta say, I'm adamant about Tranquil or Death. Perhaps - knowing out of game what I know of the Tevinter Imperium - Exile. Because Tevinter won't welcome them - they'll be weakling mages enslaved like all the other weak mages.
They are different - and if someone finds unity in that, then great. However, I do not. Example - I belong to a different minority in real life, but I don't congregate with like minded individuals solely to feel good about myself. It's counter-productive to the person I am and want to be. The same would be true for mages. I feel no kinship with them... especially as Hawke.
Had I had the option - I would have joined the Kirkwall Circle. It's a shame I could not - because then I could have seen the corruption within for myself and grabbed Cullen and said: "What are you standing out here for?! Get inside and start making these sick blood mages tranquil!"
===
So I suppose ultimately -
Demons - Death or Tranquil
Spirits - Close Watch - with Death or Tranquil if they "go Anders".
Blood Mages - Death, Tranquil, or Exile to Tevinter.
I'd love to be the first Mage Overseer - rooting out filthy mages throughout Thedas. Let them test their perverse blood magic against me - they will soon learn the price for their craven power.
In fact - I may have just been inspired to play DA: 2 again and kill every filthy blood mage I see instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt and sending them to the Circle.
No - Wynne, for example, took in a Spirit of Faith - but she was constantly vigilant by her own admission that it might corrupt her. She remarks several times that she might be an abomination. However - while suspicious of her, the fact that she abhors blood magic and never once speaks a nasty word about anything won me over.
A mage should be held under suspicion - a mage who takes in a demon/spirit doubly so - and a mage who resorts to blood magic ever, I gotta say, I'm adamant about Tranquil or Death. Perhaps - knowing out of game what I know of the Tevinter Imperium - Exile. Because Tevinter won't welcome them - they'll be weakling mages enslaved like all the other weak mages.
They are different - and if someone finds unity in that, then great. However, I do not. Example - I belong to a different minority in real life, but I don't congregate with like minded individuals solely to feel good about myself. It's counter-productive to the person I am and want to be. The same would be true for mages. I feel no kinship with them... especially as Hawke.
Had I had the option - I would have joined the Kirkwall Circle. It's a shame I could not - because then I could have seen the corruption within for myself and grabbed Cullen and said: "What are you standing out here for?! Get inside and start making these sick blood mages tranquil!"
===
So I suppose ultimately -
Demons - Death or Tranquil
Spirits - Close Watch - with Death or Tranquil if they "go Anders".
Blood Mages - Death, Tranquil, or Exile to Tevinter.
I'd love to be the first Mage Overseer - rooting out filthy mages throughout Thedas. Let them test their perverse blood magic against me - they will soon learn the price for their craven power.
In fact - I may have just been inspired to play DA: 2 again and kill every filthy blood mage I see instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt and sending them to the Circle.
Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 mars 2011 - 05:28 .
#34
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:32
FastimusRex
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Chantry controlled Thedas would never allow a mage that much power. That's why I like how the Qunari treat their mages: as potent weapons.
In the long run, Anders made the correct decision. Too much corruption within the circles and Chantry's both. It was an arrogant decision, but correct none-the-less.
Thedas needed a wake up call. What better way to do it.
In the long run, Anders made the correct decision. Too much corruption within the circles and Chantry's both. It was an arrogant decision, but correct none-the-less.
Thedas needed a wake up call. What better way to do it.
Modifié par FastimusRex, 19 mars 2011 - 05:36 .
#35
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:42
Medhia Nox
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I totally disagree - I consider him an evil terrorist who has set back mages by centuries. All the Chantry's warnings are now fully realized - the next step for a common Thedas citizen is the Tevinter Imperium. Were I a commoner in Thedas I'd round up any mages I found with a mob of townsfolk and burn them at the stake out of blind fear that they might blow up building in my hometown.
#36
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 05:51
FastimusRex
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Assuming they wouldn't use magic you immolate you, sensing impending threat? 
As for setting mages back centuries? Perhaps. Too late to know now, seeing as the entirety of the Chantry under the White Divine is in complete and utter disfunction. And the Chantry under the Black Divine in Tevinter is controlled by magisters (who once controlled almost all of Thedas.) The Templars rebelling completely (the only Chantry military force) and the re-instituion of Chantry Seekers (who act as inquisitors and predate the Templars).
So far, the only thing we know is Anders provided a catalyst. The world is in too much chaos for people to pass judgment on all mages. When I'm sure templars are commiting atrocity as well. DA2 was a catalyst for change in Thedas. A necessary change. To that end, Anders was right. Furthermore, a terrorist is just someone who terrorizes. The Chantry itself is a terrorist organization. Exalted Marches? Hunting elves into destituion, attempting the utter destruction of all who disagree. Sounds terrifying to me.
As for setting mages back centuries? Perhaps. Too late to know now, seeing as the entirety of the Chantry under the White Divine is in complete and utter disfunction. And the Chantry under the Black Divine in Tevinter is controlled by magisters (who once controlled almost all of Thedas.) The Templars rebelling completely (the only Chantry military force) and the re-instituion of Chantry Seekers (who act as inquisitors and predate the Templars).
So far, the only thing we know is Anders provided a catalyst. The world is in too much chaos for people to pass judgment on all mages. When I'm sure templars are commiting atrocity as well. DA2 was a catalyst for change in Thedas. A necessary change. To that end, Anders was right. Furthermore, a terrorist is just someone who terrorizes. The Chantry itself is a terrorist organization. Exalted Marches? Hunting elves into destituion, attempting the utter destruction of all who disagree. Sounds terrifying to me.
Modifié par FastimusRex, 19 mars 2011 - 05:53 .
#37
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:04
Medhia Nox
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Well, you condone fighting evil with more evil - I do not.
Nor do I see the Chantry as a black and white institution - I think too many people carry their dislike for real world religion into the game.
Exalted Marches are just church sanctioned wars - if they follow any real world example, they're all political and motivated by greed - not God. ((Example: Emporer Alexis of the Byzantine Empire (which means NOT Catholic) begged the Pope to send about 20 score knights to aid him against the Turks who were religiously tolerant btw. The Pope saw a land grab opportunity and called the Crusandes - they weren't religiously motivated at all, though they're a wonderful target for modern secularists uneducated about the topic))
Why the Templars are in rebellion is anyone's guess - it seems like a completely arbitrary decision on behalf of Bioware. Do they suddenly hate the Maker and the Chantry? What are they rebellion against? It's ludicrous.
Hunting Elves into destitution was first the act fo the Tevinter Imperium - you know, mages. Keeping them in destitution is the act of the governments of Thedas. The Alienages aren't Chantry run to my knowledge.
Who - besides apostates (which we supposedly agree are dangerous) does the Chantry hunt? Do they make war with Qunari? Yes - well (actually it's the governments of Thedas), that's two different nations. They would make war because they're different races - because they want land - because they have different forms of government. Religion is just one more reason amongst dozens. The Tevinter Imperium? Well - tyrannical mage overlords doesn't sound like someone you want to hug.
I actually haven't seen the Chantry do any more evil than any other group in Thedas - again, I just think people are bringing their real world bias into the game.
Nor do I see the Chantry as a black and white institution - I think too many people carry their dislike for real world religion into the game.
Exalted Marches are just church sanctioned wars - if they follow any real world example, they're all political and motivated by greed - not God. ((Example: Emporer Alexis of the Byzantine Empire (which means NOT Catholic) begged the Pope to send about 20 score knights to aid him against the Turks who were religiously tolerant btw. The Pope saw a land grab opportunity and called the Crusandes - they weren't religiously motivated at all, though they're a wonderful target for modern secularists uneducated about the topic))
Why the Templars are in rebellion is anyone's guess - it seems like a completely arbitrary decision on behalf of Bioware. Do they suddenly hate the Maker and the Chantry? What are they rebellion against? It's ludicrous.
Hunting Elves into destitution was first the act fo the Tevinter Imperium - you know, mages. Keeping them in destitution is the act of the governments of Thedas. The Alienages aren't Chantry run to my knowledge.
Who - besides apostates (which we supposedly agree are dangerous) does the Chantry hunt? Do they make war with Qunari? Yes - well (actually it's the governments of Thedas), that's two different nations. They would make war because they're different races - because they want land - because they have different forms of government. Religion is just one more reason amongst dozens. The Tevinter Imperium? Well - tyrannical mage overlords doesn't sound like someone you want to hug.
I actually haven't seen the Chantry do any more evil than any other group in Thedas - again, I just think people are bringing their real world bias into the game.
Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 mars 2011 - 06:08 .
#38
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:21
FastimusRex
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Nah, the Divine in Val Royueax (sp) in called the White and the one in Minrathous is called the Black... It's a lore thing. So, look that up before you assume I associate fantasy with reality. Why presume to know how I feel about religion in reality vs. fantasy. It's fruitless.
As for the Tevinter hunting elves first (mages, actually pretty sure they learned magic from the elves of Arlathan, as it is believe humans on Thedas are descendant of the Fex on Seheron) and the Chantry doing it second, how is that relevant? Both did it, one more recently. And as for the Maker or greed being the primary reason for Exalted Marches, irrelevant. And, the Chant of Light provides implicit proof that Andraste's first Exalted March wasn't out of greed. It was war against those who didn't believe her. Inexcusable, and quite subjective.
As for the Chantry vs. the Qunari. The Qunari don't want land. At least, not now. Tevinter contests Seheron, the Qunari just want Seheron and Par Vollen. both of which they hold.
As for the Chantry doing 'any more evil that any other group in Thedas', that's subjective. The Chantry is the primary organization that has been involved in both Fereldan and the Free Marches. From the codex, we know it's a far spanning thing. The largest organized religious group on Thedas, they happened to control mages until recently. By that logic, they are responsible for making mages the way they are.
*Edit and Addition- I never used the word evil until you used it, simply to support your points or contest them. I think evil and good are foolish concepts, ultimately. I don't condone fighting 'evil' with more 'evil' I actually never said anything remotely close to that. I said Anders' action were inexcusable, but necessary for change. And yeah, the 4th or th crusade I believe that was. That lead to the Great Schism between the two churches. Roman and Orthodox. Once again, irrelevant. Actually, this entire conversation is irrelevant to the thread. *
As for the Tevinter hunting elves first (mages, actually pretty sure they learned magic from the elves of Arlathan, as it is believe humans on Thedas are descendant of the Fex on Seheron) and the Chantry doing it second, how is that relevant? Both did it, one more recently. And as for the Maker or greed being the primary reason for Exalted Marches, irrelevant. And, the Chant of Light provides implicit proof that Andraste's first Exalted March wasn't out of greed. It was war against those who didn't believe her. Inexcusable, and quite subjective.
As for the Chantry vs. the Qunari. The Qunari don't want land. At least, not now. Tevinter contests Seheron, the Qunari just want Seheron and Par Vollen. both of which they hold.
As for the Chantry doing 'any more evil that any other group in Thedas', that's subjective. The Chantry is the primary organization that has been involved in both Fereldan and the Free Marches. From the codex, we know it's a far spanning thing. The largest organized religious group on Thedas, they happened to control mages until recently. By that logic, they are responsible for making mages the way they are.
*Edit and Addition- I never used the word evil until you used it, simply to support your points or contest them. I think evil and good are foolish concepts, ultimately. I don't condone fighting 'evil' with more 'evil' I actually never said anything remotely close to that. I said Anders' action were inexcusable, but necessary for change. And yeah, the 4th or th crusade I believe that was. That lead to the Great Schism between the two churches. Roman and Orthodox. Once again, irrelevant. Actually, this entire conversation is irrelevant to the thread. *
Modifié par FastimusRex, 19 mars 2011 - 06:45 .
#39
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:32
atheelogos
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Well for the most part he can. He and Justice are one. It's vengeance that causes the problems.FastimusRex wrote...
I dislike Anders for all the reasons you dislike him. I do think that he is quite arrogant, thinking he could absorb and contain a spirit of pure Justice,
#40
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:35
atheelogos
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bigot<_<Medhia Nox wrote...
Were I a commoner in Thedas I'd round up any mages I found with a mob of townsfolk and burn them at the stake out of blind fear that they might blow up building in my hometown.
Modifié par atheelogos, 19 mars 2011 - 06:36 .
#41
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:37
FastimusRex
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Lol. Justice became Vengeance, yeah. Ander's said Justice disapeared after combining with him.
Modifié par FastimusRex, 19 mars 2011 - 06:37 .
#42
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 06:37
atheelogos
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Well they do a lot of things similar..... And sometimes worse....Medhia Nox wrote...
Well, you condone fighting evil with more evil - I do not.
Nor do I see the Chantry as a black and white institution - I think too many people carry their dislike for real world religion into the game.
#43
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 07:24
genocidal villain
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When you side with the templars you learn the first enchanter was aware of the blood mage who killed Hawke's mother. It's really hard which side to pick really after looking it from both sides besides Meredith for all we know is crazy.
#44
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 11:35
madlily
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what i am totally intrigued about is what the next major DLC will be like.. I imagine that its going to be on the scale of Awakenings and it will be quite interesting to see how this decision effects the next part of the story..
#45
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 11:37
Tleining
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FastimusRex wrote...
Right. I guess what I meant was in act 2 there is a mage supporter (whom Anders directs you to?). She has a book with various missions to help circle mages or apostates. One is to frame a templar, or something similar.
Certainly there must be an act 2 mission equivalent that is pro-Templar. I'd hope DA2 isn't just primarily geared toward mages. On a personal note, DA2 is simply a catalyst for greater change, as we all know, I'd hope the whole 'illusion of choice' thing doesn't extend this far.
In Act one, the Quests "Wayward Son" (Feynriel), "Act of Mercy" (Grace, Thrask), "Enemies among us" (Keran) seem to be the deciding factor. If you support the Mages, you will be on your way to the Arcane Defender Achievement and get the "frame a Templar" Quest. If you support the Mages, you will be on your way the Mage Hunter Achievement and get "Mage Hunter" Quests from the Chanters Board.
If you support the Mages, Orsino gives you the "Best Served Cold" Quest, otherwise you get it from Meredith.
#46
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 11:39
Emzamination
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Mage hawke siding with the templars is a sell out and his mage warden cousin is ashamed of him.
#47
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 11:41
Envor44
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Both side have flaws...Meredith is paranoid/ slightly mad and Orsino is desperate turned out he's using blood magic in the end, so does many mages...it turned out bad.
I feel it's wrong to not side with Templar because you could spare innocent mage from total genocide, and many Templar prefer peaceful solution while most mage accept blood magic because of desperation or they just gone mad, it's only Meredith who want bloodshed, her influence corrupt Templar order in Kirkwall.
I feel it's wrong to not side with Templar because you could spare innocent mage from total genocide, and many Templar prefer peaceful solution while most mage accept blood magic because of desperation or they just gone mad, it's only Meredith who want bloodshed, her influence corrupt Templar order in Kirkwall.
Modifié par Envor44, 19 mars 2011 - 11:43 .
#48
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 11:52
Xrissie
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I killed Bethany as a warrior by siding with the Templars. Does that make my Hawke a bad person?
#49
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 12:05
Braag
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My Hawke was anti blood magic and it felt like I bumped into blood mages left and right. So maybe siding with the Templars is the better decision in that case since most mages in kirkwall seem to be blood mages.
I ended up siding with Mages my first playthrough but even then when I was going through different districts of Kirkwall all I saw was blood mages summoning demons... so I felt like I made the wrong decision since I don't support such actions.
I ended up siding with Mages my first playthrough but even then when I was going through different districts of Kirkwall all I saw was blood mages summoning demons... so I felt like I made the wrong decision since I don't support such actions.
Modifié par Braag, 19 mars 2011 - 12:05 .
#50
Posté 19 mars 2011 - 12:22
Skyline19
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I'm doing it now for the trophy and it is very weird indeed, it's also weird that no one realises that Hawke is a mage especially when I'm hunting apostates or something.
