95 réponses à ce sujet

[ToJKa1]

A cowardly blood mage lending aid in hopes of amnesty?

[CrimsonZephyr]

The problem with siding with the Templars, in my opinion, is that Meredith did not invoke the Right of Annulment for blood magic. She invoked it for Anders' act of terrorism, which the Circle had absolutely nothing to do with. Using blood magic as a justification is fallacious because every single one of the mages, minus that one who is surrounded by a platoon of Templars and Orsino, uses conventional magic. Moreover, Hawke did not know precisely how many blood mages were in the Circle - he could have been slaughtering mostly innocents. Thus, it is post-facto and meta knowledge that really isn't applicable. Yes, Hawke's mother was killed by a blood mage, but that shouldn't be any more justification to support the Templars than Bethany being a good mage should be in supporting the Mages. With all of that eliminated, there is only one fact: Anders, an apostate, destroyed the Chantry. The Circle had nothing to do with it. Meredith is using Anders' actions to punish the Circle. My choice was clear: mages. It's not a perfect decision by any stretch of the imagination, but Meredith's actions require far too much cognitive dissonance to justify and far more than defending the Circle, if not supporting Orsino.

Meredith isn't just a symptom or an isolated case. She is a textbook example of how horribly skewed the entire system is in favor of Templars. She has no checks or oversight on her power and she is able to unilaterally declare an Annulment. The fact that she is totally crazy is at the crux of this, and its because she is so singularly powerful that the fact that she went crazy is so important, because all it takes is for her to snap, and all mages, innocent or guilty, are in danger of being murdered on a whim.

[Ryzaki]

Simple. Meredith threatens to kill you if you don't side with her.

Mage Hawke would prefer to live so he sides with the templars.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Simple. Meredith threatens to kill you if you don't side with her.

Mage Hawke would prefer to live so he sides with the templars.

And Meredith will stay okay with apostate Hawke?  So.. your Hawke has no common sense?

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...
And Meredith will stay okay with apostate Hawke?  So.. your Hawke has no common sense?

Yes because clearely it makes more sense to side against the side with an army and people fully capable of nullfying your powers. (I'm not taking Hawke's mary sue powers into effect here).  

No common sense that's rich. 

If Hawke had common sense he/she would've ran away. Siding with the templars or the mages is suicidal. The mages slightly moreso. 

Smart thing to do is smile and say "yes Meredith I'll help...I just need this boat over here." and get the hell out of dodge. Since you're forced betweena stupid and stupider decision I'll just stick with stupid. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2011 - 01:30 .

[In Exile]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mage Hawke siding with templars = Ultimate Hypocrite of all time.

You can be pragmatic. If you work with the templars, obviously accusations you are a mage are slander because you do the work of the Maker. Especially once your brother is a templar.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Mage Hawke siding with templars = Ultimate Hypocrite of all time.

You can be pragmatic. If you work with the templars, obviously accusations you are a mage are slander because you do the work of the Maker. Especially once your brother is a templar.

Hawke would need to be incredibly foolish to think that Meredith would keep her word and not try to kill him when she's planning to execute all the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall because the "people will demand blood," when culpability doesn't even matter to her. Hawke is a mage, and he should realize that his life is forfeit if she thinks he will be seen as another "mage" in the eyes of the people.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
And Meredith will stay okay with apostate Hawke?  So.. your Hawke has no common sense?

Yes because clearely it makes more sense to side against the side with an army and people fully capable of nullfying your powers. (I'm not taking Hawke's mary sue powers into effect here).  

No common sense that's rich. 

If Hawke had common sense he/she would've ran away. Siding with the templars or the mages is suicidal. The mages slightly moreso. 

Smart thing to do is smile and say "yes Meredith I'll help...I just need this boat over here." and get the hell out of dodge. Since you're forced betweena stupid and stupider decision I'll just stick with stupid. 

You just said your Hawke picked that option to survive, now you say it's suicide.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

You just said your Hawke picked that option to survive, now you say it's suicide.

Both options are suicide. Both are ridculously retarded. But the plot demands I pick a side so I pick the one where I have higher survival odds. Which is the templar ending. 

Common sense would have me choose the side where I get the hell out of dodge. If that's not an option I choose the side where I'm not forced to fight an entire army that can nullify my powers and has reinforcements. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2011 - 02:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes because clearely it makes more sense to side against the side with an army and people fully capable of nullfying your powers. (I'm not taking Hawke's mary sue powers into effect here).  

Templars can nullify standard magic, but not blood magic. They have little defense if Hawke is a blood mage.

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Templars can nullify standard magic, but not blood magic. They have little defense if Hawke is a blood mage.

 

And that's gonna go real well with the rest of their army.  Hawke's not a god and being a bloodmage may buy him some time but it won't be much. 

Even the best fighter will lose if he's vastly outnumbered. And that's exactly what Hawke is if he goes against the templars, vastly outnumbered. The only reason you live in the mage ending is because Cullen has had enough of Meredith's insanity and he's nice enough to let you go. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2011 - 02:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

You just said your Hawke picked that option to survive, now you say it's suicide.

Both options are suicide. Both are ridculously retarded. But the plot demands I pick a side so I pick the one where I have higher survival odds. Which is the templar ending. 

Common sense would have me choose the side where I get the hell out of dodge. If that's not an option I choose the side where I'm not forced to fight an entire army that can nullify my powers and has reinforcements. 

If you're a mage, siding with Meredith is as suicidal if not more so. There is no guarantee that she wouldn't kill you after you've outlived your usefulness. She is not only legally allowed, but legally bound to arrest you for being an apostate in the first place.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If you're a mage, siding with Meredith is as suicidal if not more so. There is no guarantee that she wouldn't kill you after you've outlived your usefulness. She is not only legally allowed, but legally bound to arrest you for being an apostate in the first place.

And you're assured death on the mages side. You have a higher chance of survival by going along with her demands and hoping her paranoia and bloodlust is sated. It's not overly higher but it is higher. 

Also she's let Hawke be an open apostate for 3 years before then. She had legal obligation and allowance to arrest you before then as well. The only reason she leaves Hawke alone is because of political clout and him being useful. 

(Which is in truth why the sane non-suicidal option is to head for the hills and let the two sides kill each other). 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
And you're assured death on the mages side. You have a higher chance of survival by going along with her demands and hoping her paranoia and bloodlust is sated. It's not overly higher but it is higher.

Paranoia and bloodlust are rarely sated when combined.
I think it can be argued that fighting for one's life with allies (of course Orsino had to be an idiot but we couldn't have known) is less risky than betting your life on an insane paranoid hag after she kills all your potential allies. 

Also she's let Hawke be an open apostate for 3 years before then. She had legal obligation and allowance to arrest you before then as well. The only reason she leaves Hawke alone is because of political clout and him being useful.

But after the annulment, Hawke outlives her usefulness completely.

(Which is in truth why the sane non-suicidal option is to head for the hills and let the two sides kill each other). 

Or be pro-active and do somethign for 3 years instead of staring at your fireplace.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Paranoia and bloodlust are rarely sated when combined.
I think it can be argued that fighting for one's life with allies (of course Orsino had to be an idiot but we couldn't have known) is less risky than betting your life on an insane paranoid hag after she kills all your potential allies.

No actually it's not.  

Look at the gallows. Hawke walks into a giant trap. There's no way out except that giant gate that all the templars are standing at. The only way Hawke can leave the gallows is by fighting his way out through that horde of templars. (Replay the mage ending. They're completely surronded when Cullen decides to be a decent guy and let Hawke go.)  His allies barely know how to fight (look at how easily the mages are cut down in the FMV) Hawke really has no advantages at all in the Gallows except Orsino (and we all know how well that turned out <_< ) 

You're trapped like rats in the gallows. It's great that the templars are funnelled coming towards you but due to sheer numbers and resources? Templars have the gallow mages beat easily. You may have survived for a few days (at best and this is assuming the templars are nice enough to give you breaks) but you would've lost. 

Not to mention that funnelling works against Hawke as much as it works for Hawke. 

There's a reason they housed the mages in an old prison. 

If they had fought in the city then yes an arguement could be made that allies would be helpful. As it is those allies only lead you to a dead end so Hawke can fight with his back against the wall. Fabulous. 

But after the annulment, Hawke outlives her usefulness completely.

The new circle can always use a first enchanter that Meredith has complete control over. Hawke still is the Champion and still has allies in the nobility. There's a reason Meredith says she'll say you died fighting bravely and that's because the people wouldn't appreciate her killing their champion. She also can't smear Hawke's name as easily seeing as he's trying to restore order to the city. It's a slim hope but it's better than the slaughter that Hawke would face in the gallows. 

Or be pro-active and do somethign for 3 years instead of staring at your fireplace.

True. 

Edit: I'm not arguing that Mage Hawke is guaranteed life on the templars side (he doesn't).
He's dead either way but he has better chances with the templars than the mages. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Look at the gallows. Hawke walks into a giant trap. There's no way out except that giant gate that all the templars are standing at.

Well since Kirkwall was infested by run away mages, I had assumed that there was a way out, or are the Templars that incompetent? <_<

Sure, tactically the Templars have every advantage. They would also hold the same advantage to a mage who helped them should they turn on him/ her in the gallows. Plus the advantage of the mage having no allies except the companions.

The new circle can always use a first enchanter that Meredith has complete control over. Hawke still is the Champion and still has allies in the nobility. There's a reason Meredith says she'll say you died fighting bravely and that's because the people wouldn't appreciate her killing their champion. She also can't smear Hawke's name as easily seeing as he's trying to restore order to the city. It's a slim hope but it's better than the slaughter that Hawke would face in the gallows.

It's precisely because Hawke is the only one who can challenge Meredith (if he / she wasn't lazy), that Meredith would most probably kill Hawke in the gallows and then blame it on the mages that the whole populace was going to hate after what Anders did. I think the people and nobility are going to believe Meredith on this one. Especially if they find out what Orsino did.

He's dead either way but he has better chances with the templars than the mages. 

As it turns out, he's alive either way. Never has surviving impossible odds been so anti-climatic.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Well since Kirkwall was infested by run away mages, I had assumed that there was a way out, or are the Templars that incompetent? <_<

Sure, tactically the Templars have every advantage. They would also hold the same advantage to a mage who helped them should they turn on him/ her in the gallows. Plus the advantage of the mage having no allies except the companions.  

There's supposedly a system beneath the gallows. Yet Hawke doesn't know where it is (so ends up royally screwed when he has to fight his way out). 

Edit: Now that I think about it. I recall the mage underground crumbling...I think the templars did discover it and started putting guards down there or something. I can't recall but I remember hearing something of the sort. 

Indeed. But Mage Hawke is banking on it never getting that far. If it does he's dead either way. 

It's precisely because Hawke is the only one who can challenge Meredith (if he / she wasn't lazy), that Meredith would most probably kill Hawke in the gallows and then blame it on the mages that the whole populace was going to hate after what Anders did. I think the people and nobility are going to believe Meredith on this one. Especially if they find out what Orsino did. 

 

This is true. 

I wish Mage Hawke had an opporunity to talk to Cullen more. Especially since Cullen can defy her with mage Hawke backing him up. 

However my mage Hawke sees his chances as being higher with the templars. Maybe just maybe Meredith will be satisified. It doesn't happen but hey miracles sometimes come true. Not only that but because the templars themselves respect him (given how they thank him for helping Meredith, don't harass him and are willing to listen to his orders (this is mostly Cullen though). 

As it turns out, he's alive either way. Never has surviving impossible odds been so anti-climatic. 

Really I hated that boss battle. Stupid lightsaber sword. <_< 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
There's supposedly a system beneath the gallows. Yet Hawke doesn't know where it is (so ends up royally screwed when he has to fight his way out). 

Indeed. But Mage Hawke is banking on it never getting that far. If it does he's dead either way. 

I dared to assume that the mages have an iq higher than rocks and that they would actually use those tunnels. So Hawke can ask them, if he can be bothered to that is. 

Especially after Meredith gave them time to prepare their defenses like an idiot!

Dammit, never has a game featured so many morons.

This is true. 

I wish Mage Hawke had an opporunity to talk to Cullen more. Especially since Cullen can defy her with mage Hawke backing him up. 

However my mage Hawke sees his chances as being higher with the templars. Maybe just maybe Meredith will be satisified. It doesn't happen but hey miracles sometimes come true. Not only that but because the templars themselves respect him (given how they thank him for helping Meredith, don't harass him and are willing to listen to his orders (this is mostly Cullen though).

I'd agree that had Hawke been able to have more explicit relations with Templars, that he could risk it. But in-game, the most sympathettic Templar gets murdered by an imbecile and Cullen, while skeptical of Meredith, never sounded skeptical about the duties of a Templar perse, though I may have forgotten what he said.

As it turns out, he's alive either way. Never has surviving impossible odds been so anti-climatic. 

Really I hated that boss battle. Stupid lightsaber sword. <_< 

I personally loved the credits. It very adequately represented by reaction to the entire thing. All it was lacking was cricket noise.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mai 2011 - 03:31 .

[cdtrk65]

Well I couldnt fully comprend why my mage hawke sided with the templars.

The one she gave was fearing the lynch mob would do the job anyway. A sense of duty to protect the citzen of kirkwall (as a mage), the templars are only threats to mages, well allowing the mages to life after what had happened and a potentially inciting a riot threatened both mages, and rioters. That might be hypocritical considering, but hey she wasn't using blood magic. Plus there was sufficent evidence by the over aboundance of blood mages rooming kirkwall to suggest that there was more than a few bloodmages within the circle.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I dared to assume that the mages have an iq higher than rocks and that they would actually use those tunnels. So Hawke can ask them, if he can be bothered to that is.  

Especially after Meredith gave them time to prepare their defenses like an idiot!

Dammit, never has a game featured so many morons.

Now you should know better than to assume anyone has a brain KoP. That be dangerous territory.  

Though yeah that is a decent assumption. 

I'd agree that had Hawke been able to have more explicit relations with Templars, that he could risk it. But in-game, the most sympathettic Templar gets murdered by an imbecile and Cullen, while skeptical of Meredith, never sounded skeptical about the duties of a Templar perse, though I may have forgotten what he said.

Actually he does. If you talk to him enough he starts saying "I heard whispers that she's mad...she's not quite there (he says something about Uldred) but it's enough to make me wonder if her goals and the goals of the templars are the same." So he's already starting to have doubts. 

You then hear some recruits talking about Meredith being mad and how just because he said it outloud he's treated as a pariah. 

A cunning Hawke would use Meredith's own betrayal as the ultimate trump card to say she's insane. "Look at her! She assumes even I, Champion of Kirkwall! The one who helped wipe out the bloodmages in the Circle is a bloodmage? She's insane!" enough of them would be thinking it to probably go along if Hawke's charismatic enough. (and by playing of Cullen's worries)  

I personally loved the credits. It very adequately represented by reaction to the entire thing. All it was lacking was cricket noise. 

 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2011 - 03:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Actually he does. If you talk to him enough he starts saying "I heard whispers that she's mad...she's not quite there (he says something about Uldred) but it's enough to make me wonder if her goals and the goals of the templars are the same." So he's already starting to have doubts. 

Yea I remember that, but it does not sound to me like he is questioning the duty of Templars and that he doesn't think an annulment is necessary at the end.

Though I could see how Hawke thinking that Cullen and other Templars' doubt could be used against Meredith. Especially a particularily charismatic one.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yea I remember that, but it does not sound to me like he is questioning the duty of Templars and that he doesn't think an annulment is necessary at the end. 

Though I could see how Hawke thinking that Cullen and other Templars' doubt could be used against Meredith. Especially a particularily charismatic one.

Hm. I got more of a questioning how much Meredith was doing that was what a templar was supposed to do. He does mention something about templars duties when he saves those mages from being killed (with Hawke's backup). 

That pretty much is gonna be my snarky Hawke's line of thinking. I now have inspiration for another Mage playthrough.  

I miss the battle mage spec.  Force mage is fine but bloodmage is pretty lackluster (and none RP friendly for my mages) and spirit healer...I hate healing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 mai 2011 - 03:57 .

[angj57]

Yeah I don't see how a mage Hawke can side with the templars. I really wanted to with my mage, cause I wanted to become Viscount, but I couldn't come up with a way to justify it. Hawke would have to be the dumbest, most gullible person in Thedas to seriously believe that Meredith would leave him and his mage friends alone after she had dealt with the circle. And while I don't like all the blood mages in the Kirkwall circle, it's pretty hard (read: impossible) to justify killing every single circle mage for something that they didn't even do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
I miss the battle mage spec.  Force mage is fine but bloodmage is pretty lackluster (and none RP friendly for my mages) and spirit healer...I hate healing. 

I liked blood magic in DA2 personally, though I still do not understand the point of self-impalement. And how damaging internal organs has anything to do with blood magic.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I liked blood magic in DA2 personally, though I still do not understand the point of self-impalement. And how damaging internal organs has anything to do with blood magic. 

Yeah the impalement is kind of my facepalm button. 

"I'm totally inconspicious!" *stab* 

And yeah...the fact that bloodmage Hawke doesn't hit something vital is nothing short of a miracle.