167 réponses à ce sujet

[88mphSlayer]

aw cut the crap already

lets get right to the point: MMO's have taken all the hardcore rpg's players, people who love stats and micromanaging loot and etc., all the potential customers for a rebirth of the classic late 90's crpg's are gone... just as single player wrpg's are seeing significant growth in sales!

DAO was promised as a throwback, like regular old-fashioned monopoly or coke with actual sugar... and to a certain degree, that's what we got

so what happens when the sequel is sugar-free diet coke or star wars monopoly? people ****, because the whole point of DAO was being a modern throwback, because there are no other throwbacks on the market, because everybody's too busy playing MMO's to care anymore, and if they aren't playing MMO's they're burned out on stats and looting and mob micromanaging

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 19 mars 2011 - 03:34 .

[The_Eejit]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I think that EVERY game in the existence of gaming history could have used more time. It's not limited to DA2 - or do you think that I enjoyed the quicksave bug present in Fallout: New Vegas at launch, the bug that destroyed hours of effort because I didn't realize there was a problem at first? The world isn't perfect, schedules aren't perfect, games aren't perfect (not even the really good ones), and companies aren't perfect.

I never threw a tantrum over that quicksave bug btw, because A) I'm patient (usually), the problem was resolved quickly and C) I think there are more important things in life than screaming and ranting on a forum about what went wrong. If a game sends someone's temper through the roof so much so that they feel compelled to shout expletives at people, etc., then maybe they shouldn't be playing games at all.

The only thing I care about with regards to DA2 atm is the BW takes away valuable feedback from people over things like the recycled interior maps (caves in particular). And by valuable feedback, I mean the rare threads where someone actually posts in a reasonable, calm, and intelligent manner about the positives and negatives and how they might be fixed.

It is not completely true, as you can over-cook a game, a lot of games do get a good development cycles. A lot of teams also have the freedom to admit they can't finish the game completely in time for the release date, so they push it back (Valve and Blizzard may do this too often, but still good examples of the freedom to evaluate the game before release). Dragon Age 2 was rushed, you can see that by looking at the development time, the finished product, the amount of time spend on DA:O, and staff admitting to the game being rushed from the start.

Thats the difference between wanting to release a good product or wanting to cash in. I just wish we would look down on the cash in projects.

[Asazal]

I will not be buying DLC for this turd nugget

[The_Eejit]

General Flynt wrote...

I agree with pretty much everything stated here. The problem with so many newcomers to Dragon Age and RPGs in general is we get things like Dragon Age 2 ... These people that are praising it must not have anything in their background to compare it to because the bar is being set very low if this is a " great" game.  Maybe the only RPG they played was Two Worlds ?

It is not  acceptable for a $60 sequel . It is not a movie . Maybe on 11/11/11 people will understand 

I think the different generations is an issue as well. They may have nothing to reference DA2 too, so may not understand the frustrations when comparing it to other RPGs. If you were new to movies, and you saw Transformers 2 or hostel, you may think those movies were masterpieces. Maybe thats why its important to keep old genre's and styles around, so they can experience the meduim as it was when other generations experienced them? Maybe there will always be a need for a new DA:O to be around to keep CRPG's a known genre?

We say, My god I miss games like x-com and Doom, and they look at them and see a fossil. They look at these new age games and say they are great, and all we older folk see are kid's toys? 

Modifié par The_Eejit, 19 mars 2011 - 03:43 .

[St. Walker]

88mphSlayer wrote...

aw cut the crap already

lets get right to the point: MMO's have taken all the hardcore rpg's players, people who love stats and micromanaging loot and etc., all the potential customers for a rebirth of the classic late 90's crpg's are gone... just as single player wrpg's are seeing significant growth in sales!

I wouldn't consider "stats and micromanaging" as hardcore RPGing. That's more WotC (D&D 3rd/4th edition) material right there, min-maxing, metagaming, and the like. The stuff that is killing RPGs.

[Darkest Dreamer]

General Flynt wrote...

These people that are praising it must not have anything in their background to compare it to because the bar is being set very low if this is a " great" game.  Maybe the only RPG they played was Two Worlds ?

Planescape Torment, the entire Fallout series, all the Infinity Engine games, Arcanum, the Vampire Masquerade series, the Temple of Elemental Evil, the Neverwinter Nights series, the Gothic series, the Two Worlds series, the Elder Scrolls series, the Jagged Alliance series, the Mass Effect series, the original Dragon Age, the Knights of the Old Republic series, the Ultima series, and quite a few others that have probably just slipped my mind. Is that enough of a background?

Face it, there are people with differing opinions and there's nothing wrong with allowing both sides to express their views. The problem is that many are just being crude in their manner and the situation isn't helped by telling the one side to back down while silently condoning the other. Now excuse me as I go enjoy another round of Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par Darkest Dreamer, 19 mars 2011 - 03:53 .

[Tigerking]

The OP's post started out fine then went straight to hell.
You say it's fine to like DA2, then you imply that the only reason we PRETEND to like the game is to defend Bioware, and that we're damaging the industry. Way to feign evenhandedness there. Like YOU said, Bioware doesn't need mindless fanboys. I'm not one. and I love DA2 on its own merits. it's not perfect, but I don;t feel compelled to ask for or expect perfection, like some here evidently do.

[Razcalking1978]

Here's a big picture for you: A game company made a game. Play it if you like it, don't if you don't.

Spending time on the forums of a game you don't like is pathetic.

[TileToad]

General Flynt wrote...
The problem with so many newcomers to Dragon Age and RPGs in general is we get things like Dragon Age 2 ... These people that are praising it must not have anything in their background to compare it to because the bar is being set very low if this is a " great" game.  Maybe the only RPG they played was Two Worlds ?

It is not  acceptable for a $60 sequel . It is not a movie . Maybe on 11/11/11 people will understand 

As someone who has played RPGs since the days of "Alternate Reality and Bard's Tale", I think it's rather the extreme expectations of those who have little experience with games in general and RPGs in particular.
Perhaps you should try to enjoy a game for what it is instead of what you want it to be. You might be surprised how many positives you'll find.

[88mphSlayer]

St. Walker wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

aw cut the crap already

lets get right to the point: MMO's have taken all the hardcore rpg's players, people who love stats and micromanaging loot and etc., all the potential customers for a rebirth of the classic late 90's crpg's are gone... just as single player wrpg's are seeing significant growth in sales!

I wouldn't consider "stats and micromanaging" as hardcore RPGing. That's more WotC (D&D 3rd/4th edition) material right there, min-maxing, metagaming, and the like. The stuff that is killing RPGs.

eh, rpg's focused on stats and loot are still wildly popular, it's stats + micromanagement that has taken a real niche role, DAO filled that niche and DA2 doesn't

micromanagement is still wildly popular with japanese strategy rpg's, tho those are all still turn-based and still very niche

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 19 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[Tonidsab]

Completely agree with the Op.

Bioware took advantage of it's consumers. It's within everyones right to feel ripped-off and abused.

All the best for those who did get something out of DA2, really. Doesn't take a great depth of finance or marketing knowledge however to realize you and I are considered mind-numbing stupid consumers by EA and Bioware though.

It's money driving it. Nothing at all wrong with that, unfortunately it was a cheap ruse that really became exposed with DA2 and it's evident Bioware cares nothing for loyalty despite the PR.

Get realistic.

Modifié par Tonidsab, 19 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[The_Eejit]

Tigerking wrote...

The OP's post started out fine then went straight to hell.
You say it's fine to like DA2, then you imply that the only reason we PRETEND to like the game is to defend Bioware, and that we're damaging the industry. Way to feign evenhandedness there. Like YOU said, Bioware doesn't need mindless fanboys. I'm not one. and I love DA2 on its own merits. it's not perfect, but I don;t feel compelled to ask for or expect perfection, like some here evidently do.

I'm saying its damaging the industry to ignore the fact that DA2 was not given the development time it needed, and its clear it wasn't about what works and what would improve on DA, it was all about what they could cut and what they could "dumb-down" so they could get it out on time. If we don't say, hey, we want quality over quantity, then the products we receive are going to be far worse than they should be.

What if, in an alternate universe, everybody took issue with the fact EA was cashing in and rushed DA2, and the sales represented this, imagine how good the alternate DA3 would be compared to the DA3 we will get in reality. That, or they would drop DA and move on to cashing in on other franchises, which may leave DA with some dignity.

Modifié par The_Eejit, 19 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[Soilborn88]

Veex wrote...

In a nutshell for the "TLDR" crowd. If you like the game, your opinion is wrong and you're just a sheep. You can't defend a game you like because the OP thinks it was bad and demands better!

Liking the game is one thing, that's fine. What bothers me is when people compare this game which is incomplete by far to Origins and how Origins pales incomparsion when Origins has been developed for 10x as long and was for the most part a complete RPG.

Bioware took a lot of shortcuts with this game. Coming off the acclaimed and success of Origins and going to DA2 is just a major disappointment. Origins was why I bought DA2, and with the next DA release I won't be doing anymore pre-orders.

The fact that the game is incomplete, I really don't see how people defend it so vigliantly. You know I enjoyed the game I guess, but I'm not a big fan of it. I beat it on Hard and I'm having a hard time trying to play it again, in Origins that wasn't a problem for me.

Modifié par Soilborn88, 19 mars 2011 - 04:13 .

[Scars Unseen]

General Flynt wrote...


I agree with pretty much everything stated here. The problem with so many newcomers to Dragon Age and RPGs in general is we get things like Dragon Age 2 ... These people that are praising it must not have anything in their background to compare it to because the bar is being set very low if this is a " great" game.  Maybe the only RPG they played was Two Worlds ?

It is not  acceptable for a $60 sequel . It is not a movie . Maybe on 11/11/11 people will understand 

Thanks for the assumptions.  A little off, but that's the internet for you.  I think that if you are looking for something to take you back to the days of Baldur's Gate 2, you're going to have to get started on making it, because no one else has for a while now (and yes, I'm including DA:O in that assesment).  My opinion?  Dragon Age 2 is a fine game with a few problems.  Is it the same game as DA:O?  Nope.  Could it have been improved by several months more polish?  Sure.  It's still fun.  I finish a gaming session wishing I had time to play one more quest.  Even at that, I haven't gotten the sleep I should since I bought it.

I can't say that I enjoyed this game, overall, less than I did Origins.  I can say that there are aspects of each that I preferred to their counterpart in the other.  That's hardly worth wholesale condemnation.  Certainly not the sort of mindless bashing seen in Metacritic.

Now let's be fair.  I play the PC version.  I don't have to deal with the autoattack problem.  I might be more annoyed if that were the case, since that's a basic gameplay function.  And to give some credence to the other side, the wholesale reuse of environments is lazy design, and Bioware deserves to be called out on it.  But I feel the gameplay is solid, the story is well paced, and I don't regret my purchase at all.

[WJC3688]

Agreed with OP's general sentiment that people shouldn't be blind fanboys. I don't think I'd go so far as to call DA2 "a shell of a game" or talk about EA as being "the big suits on the 6 hundred 66th floor," but nevertheless it's definitely true that they're a corporation, they want to make money, they don't care whether or not Joe Schmoe liked the game, and they will rip Joe Schmoe off if he gets complacent and lets them do it. This is coming from a guy who likes DA2, as well, I consider it a fine game. I just recognize that it was rushed and that it could (and imo, should) have been better.

Modifié par WJC3688, 19 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[AlanC9]

Darkest Dreamer wrote...
Planescape Torment, the entire Fallout series, all the Infinity Engine games, Arcanum, the Vampire Masquerade series, the Temple of Elemental Evil, the Neverwinter Nights series, the Gothic series, the Two Worlds series, the Elder Scrolls series, the Jagged Alliance series, the Mass Effect series, the original Dragon Age, the Knights of the Old Republic series, the Ultima series, and quite a few others that have probably just slipped my mind. Is that enough of a background?

What, no Gold Box or Might and Magic games? 

[Silveryne]

I have been playing RPGs since the late 90's (Fallout 1, BG, and PST were my first). I have, as you can imagine, played a lot of RPGs since then. I liked DA2. I am entitled to like it, just as you are entitled to hate it, and I would appreciate if it was not implied that there is something dreadfully wrong with me for enjoying something that not everyone else enjoyed and formulating my own opinion. Please respect your fellow forum-goers instead of forcing your opinion -- which you are more than entitled to have -- on them. Sometimes it is not a matter of who is right and who is wrong, but just a matter of personal preference. Thank you.

[ZerbanDaGreat1]

Aha. I see. By enjoying a good but flawed game I am directly damaging the games industry. Thank the Maker my eyes have been opened.

[Darkest Dreamer]

AlanC9 wrote...

What, no Gold Box or Might and Magic games? 

Well, bits and pieces of the Gold Box and yup, the Might and Magic series.

There's one that I'm forgetting though. Or rather a few but this one brought me considerable joy. I can't believe its name escapes me as I played it only two months ago... It's set in the medieval era and involves your character, with a small party you create yourself, venturing off to make a name and gold for yourselves.

[Bathead]

I'm with you Dreamer, I played all of those and more.I'm about as old school as you can get. I played games like the original Bard's Tale, one of many games of tha era that you had to make your own maps with graph paper, (no such thing as auto-mapping back then). All kinds of D+D and A D+D games (Eye of the Beholder, Ravensloft, the gold box games), The Ultima series. Might and Magic, Baldur's Gate, all that and more. , all on as many systems, NES, SNES, Atari 2600, Odyssey2, Commodore 64, and PC's of just about every level since a Pentium 286.
Quiet frankly, as an old fart gamer, I find to be DA 2 quite enjoyable. Not perfect, but I have yet to play any game that is. And I have definitely played some really bad ones, on both PC and console alike, and DA 2 is not one of them.

Modifié par Bathead, 19 mars 2011 - 06:13 .

[DA_Joran]

I just want to throw this out there. What about that great classic game Pong? That game was awesome. It was never tiring or boring to watch those over sized dashes block a bouncing period. Who needs a tennis game when you can always play Pong? It's only an 8-bit game of good wholesome stuff.  (If you don't realize this is a joke, you're taking things way too seriously.)

There are lots of good arguments made. However, I think the OP really wants people to demand more for their money. Games, for the most part, cost $59.99 USD new. I don't think it was a post about what kind of game is great or bad. The generalizations weren't necessary. There may have been other comments that could have been omitted. But overall, I agree with the original post. I agree with the original premise of demanding more from developers for the amount of money they charge. I see nothing wrong with wanting to hold them to high standards.

Modifié par DA_Joran, 19 mars 2011 - 06:39 .

[Johnsen1972]

just compare games like DEADSPACE 2 with Dragon Age 2.

Deadspace costs 10 times less to produce its very linear and short. (12 hours), but sells for the same money.
RPG's shouldnt be linear and they costs 10 times more brain and money to produce. Probably sells a bit more but is it really worth it for a company?

ME2 came out as a light-RPG - Shooter. Compared to any other shooters it had incredibly many choices and different changes in story. Thats why ME2 was so successful and Bioware was called Studio of the Year. But Dragon Age 2 has to compete with RPG's and yes, there is NO WAY streamlining DA2 down to ME2 is going to work in that section.

DA2 feels rushed? Compare Kirkwall with Denerim marketplace. Looks empty, a few NPC's sitting at a same place doing nothing, not even talking. Denerim marketplace has chickens, childs running around birds etc. there is a huge change of atmosphere in those two games.

If you want to compete with games like Deadspace 2 you have to produce faster and cut down a lot of things. To do that the game has to be more linear, it should have a lot less dialogues, less small details that helps atmosphere, frequent reuse of maps and a story that plays in ONE town that supports reuse of maps.

Thats DA2, stripped down and streamlined with companion armor stripped of so Bioware can sell it separetly with DLC's

And thats why we will never see a game like Dragon Age Origins again.




Thats pure capitalism, streamline the games, cut out lots of RPG elements to reduce the costs and increase profit.

Modifié par Johnsen1972, 19 mars 2011 - 06:44 .

[DA_Joran]

The solution is pricing games appropriately based on many factors like average time to complete, graphics, linear vs. roaming and many others. Some games shouldn't cost $59.99. They should be priced lower. I'm sure you have encountered some you feel were overpriced.

[Clonedzero]

what a horrible horrible thing to say.

if i enjoyed the game and loved it. why am i wrong? i'm completely allowed to have and defend my position. they created a game, i enjoyed the game. i'd buy another of equal quality.

there was issues with the game i'll openly admit, but most of the people lashing out against it are being ridiculous.

you expected too much of the game. it wasn't perfect and thus its "horrible". its bad logic. ive seen people demanding apologies for the game, thats insane. can't people see how ridiculous they are being?

also having the whole "this is the death of real RPGs!" thats also insane. if theres a market for it, there will be games like it. Bioware didn't kill RPG's, they make them, they create them in the way they like and sell them, if you don't like it then dont buy it. simple as that. they don't owe you anything.

ive bought sequals to games that i loved but absolutely hated teh sequel. you know what i did? i returned the game and got something else. i didnt sit on the forum whining like a child expecting an apology or going on insane rants about the "death of the RPG".

its honestly sickening the kind of insane rants i see from people here. its crazy. if you dont like the direction they're taking with the series then speak back with the only way that actually matters, and dont support the game by buying it. simple as that. if you think bioware is ruining RPG's dont buy bioware games. its just kinda depressing you sit on the forums ranting all day about a game you DONT like? go find a game you do like.

seriously people...

[Teh Chozen Wun]

I loved Dragon Age 2.