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The bigger picture - DA2 and it's defenders.


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#76
Icinix

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Tony77A wrote...

St. Walker wrote...

CLime wrote...
Dragon Age 2 was made to appeal to a different fanbase than Dragon Age: Origins.  Those two groups aren't exclusive, the majority of one also belong to the other.  Unfortunately, the people on the fringes of the Venn diagram decide that the other group is somehow inferior.


I think this is quite possibly the problem here. If you like the game, fine; that's your prerogative. Regardless, you have to admit it seems odd to release a sequel to a game with a completely different group of people in mind, effectively alienating the crowd that made the first installment a success.


This

DA:O was marketed as the spiritual successor of Baldurs Gate (and it kind of was).
DA2 is the spiritual successor of.... I dont' know, but not DA:O.


Rise of the Argonauts.

#77
Montana

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Icinix wrote...

Tony77A wrote...

St. Walker wrote...

CLime wrote...
Dragon Age 2 was made to appeal to a different fanbase than Dragon Age: Origins.  Those two groups aren't exclusive, the majority of one also belong to the other.  Unfortunately, the people on the fringes of the Venn diagram decide that the other group is somehow inferior.


I think this is quite possibly the problem here. If you like the game, fine; that's your prerogative. Regardless, you have to admit it seems odd to release a sequel to a game with a completely different group of people in mind, effectively alienating the crowd that made the first installment a success.


This

DA:O was marketed as the spiritual successor of Baldurs Gate (and it kind of was).
DA2 is the spiritual successor of.... I dont' know, but not DA:O.


Rise of the Argonauts.


Man that was a bad game, but you have a point ;)

#78
Vilegrim

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Clonedzero wrote...

Johnsen1972 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

seriously go find a game you enjoy, you'll be happier in life, if you're disappointed with the game thats fine, but whining about it on the forums isn't helping anyone. bioware isn't going to listen to a vocal minority on their forums who are outraged that they cant be an elf or cant dress up their followers or some other nitpicky complaint.


Thx for you advice, I will find better rpg games, but expressing my observation isnt whining at all. Im not whining. Im telling you facts about the game industry. if you like the game, go play it, I never said that you shouldnt.
I just said you should try Deadspace 2. I played it on my PS3 just to see how future Dragon Age will look like. Basically a big movie Posted Image

I actually was scared a lot in Deadspace 2. Posted Image

Deadspace is a survivial horrror 3rd person shooter, dragon age is an RPG. they're completely different genres of games, made by compeltely different devleopers just under the same publisher.

deadspace 2 has nothing to do with dragonage, so i dunno where you're comparing them from.

i havent played deadspace 2 but i'd like to. i generally dont buy short games like that though, i tend to rent them. i buy long games with alot of replay value like dragonage 2.

also deadspace 2 had a huge budget didn't it?



DA2 is hardly an RPG, choices matter in RPGs they don't in DA2.

#79
hawat333

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Veex wrote...

In a nutshell for the "TLDR" crowd. If you like the game, your opinion is wrong and you're just a sheep. You can't defend a game you like because the OP thinks it was bad and demands better!

The same works with other party.
If you don't like the game, you're just a troll.
If you write down the reason for not liking this or that feature, you're just too dumb to see the improvements.

That's how masses work, no way around that. :)

#80
djackson75

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This is the worst message board on the internet. It is insane that when you get a group of obviously intelligent people together, that they can be so stupid.

Everyone has an opinion.

An opinion is not fact.

If someone doesn't agree with your opinion, they are not wrong.

If someone thinks that DA 2 is the best game ever, good for them.

If someone thinks that DA 2 is a rushed pile of dung, that's quite unfortunate.

I wish people would stop trying to state their opinion as fact, and then force others to agree with them.

Won't happen though.

#81
djackson75

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Icinix wrote...

Tony77A wrote...

St. Walker wrote...

CLime wrote...
Dragon Age 2 was made to appeal to a different fanbase than Dragon Age: Origins.  Those two groups aren't exclusive, the majority of one also belong to the other.  Unfortunately, the people on the fringes of the Venn diagram decide that the other group is somehow inferior.


I think this is quite possibly the problem here. If you like the game, fine; that's your prerogative. Regardless, you have to admit it seems odd to release a sequel to a game with a completely different group of people in mind, effectively alienating the crowd that made the first installment a success.


This

DA:O was marketed as the spiritual successor of Baldurs Gate (and it kind of was).
DA2 is the spiritual successor of.... I dont' know, but not DA:O.


Rise of the Argonauts.


I see what you did there.

In reality, I don't remember who the interview was with, but from what I have read, DA 2 is more in line with how they originally wanted to make DAO, but the project leads fought for a more traditional style game. An example would be the backstab. They literally had to fight in DAO to NOT have it be a button press where your character automatically poofs in behind the enemy for a killshot. They had to fight to make it so that the rogue had to manuever him or herself behind the character.. There were other examples, but that's the only one I can think of.

So in closing, DA 2 is more in line with what DAO was originally supposed to be.

#82
Drogo45

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This thread was born in the night to perish in the night.

#83
djackson75

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The_Eejit wrote...

CLime wrote...


I can't help but be repulsed by this kind of narrow-minded stereotyping.

Dragon Age 2 was made to appeal to a different fanbase than Dragon Age: Origins.  Those two groups aren't exclusive, the majority of one also belong to the other.  Unfortunately, the people on the fringes of the Venn diagram decide that the other group is somehow inferior.

Essentially, by complaining about the "jock crowd" or whatever, you become this guy.  There exist people out there who value different things in video games.  Their opinions, their preferences, and their dollars are just as valid as your own.  Don't act as if buying one videogame from a studio somehow grants you special entitlements to expect identical results from all future products.


Ok I was a little harsh. I know there are people of all different groups and everybody has different tastes, I'm just saying that because the people who like games like Civilization are outnumbered by the people who like games like Gears Of War, we are stuck with games like Gears Of War, thus in my opinion that is a large negative when it comes to mainstreaming gaming.

Thats like you and your friends going to Mcdee's for a decade for a Mcburger, then finding out they only sell salads now because a much larger group of people would rather come in and buy the salad. Clearly one side will be unhappy.

What happens then? Not enough options. Only one side gets what they want.


What if I like Dragon Age AND Gears of War??
Also, since you fall on the Civ side... Let's say Civ was the more popular playtype... and there were only 1 or 2 Gears type games... would you be making a post about how there need to be more games like Gears, to be fair to them? If not, if someone who liked Gears made a thread, would you say they were correct in their statement? Or would you just sit back and say "too bad"?

Modifié par djackson75, 19 mars 2011 - 02:08 .


#84
Asazal

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Whether you agree with the OP or not, liked the game or not; we all paid $60 dollars for less content, less features, and less polish than DAO.

#85
SphereofSilence

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My opinion:

I see what BW is trying to do here - their goal in the long run is to make a franchise that will be seen as the number one fantasy universe around. Kind of like how Modern Warfare 2 is doing right now with their tremendous sales. That means making Dragon Age appeal to wider audience. If it means simplifying certain elements and going in a direction that wouldn't sit well with the traditional fan-base, they'd do it. It's hard to tell right now whether or not EA/BW will achieve this goal and that Dragon Age 2 will be a sales success. My money's on the negative side - they're not going to get far. Not unless much more resources are put into it for future games. They're setting much shorter times between releases at the expense of quality as well as quantity of content.

#86
Steptroll

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tl;dr

#87
Tirigon

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djackson75 wrote...

In reality, I don't remember who the interview was with, but from what I have read, DA 2 is more in line with how they originally wanted to make DAO, but the project leads fought for a more traditional style game. An example would be the backstab. They literally had to fight in DAO to NOT have it be a button press where your character automatically poofs in behind the enemy for a killshot. They had to fight to make it so that the rogue had to manuever him or herself behind the character.. There were other examples, but that's the only one I can think of.

So in closing, DA 2 is more in line with what DAO was originally supposed to be.


If this is true, then I hope BioWare f*cks up their plans for how a game should be every time from now on so that we get another Dragon AgeB)

#88
abaris

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djackson75 wrote...

In reality, I don't remember who the interview was with, but from what I have read, DA 2 is more in line with how they originally wanted to make DAO, but the project leads fought for a more traditional style game. An example would be the backstab. They literally had to fight in DAO to NOT have it be a button press where your character automatically poofs in behind the enemy for a killshot. They had to fight to make it so that the rogue had to manuever him or herself behind the character.. There were other examples, but that's the only one I can think of.

So in closing, DA 2 is more in line with what DAO was originally supposed to be.


Well, thank the powers that have been, they didn't bow to the pressure.

But you could see the signs on the horizon when they published Awakening. That's when they stripped the communication at any time option away and reduced the explorable aereas. I had my fears right there and then, but said to myself, its only an addon after all.

#89
Team Value

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Everything needs more development time. There are these things called deadlines in the real world. Baldur's Gate 2 had whole quest lines cut because the developers didn't have the time to finish them.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to insult people for disagreeing with it.

#90
TileToad

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Davasar wrote...

The great things about this thread is...

These people defending DA2 do not care for RPGs all that much. Action/adventure games are what they enjoy, and more power to them.

They have played an action/adventure game, which while passable as best, is a far cry from the truly epic RPGs that EA/Bioware will no longer make.

I realize that those times are long gone, and that watered down, rushed shells of games are the new wave of the future.

It just means my money will no longer support such farce. I will spend it other places: where time, effort and quality is put in by the people who I make the purchase from.

Enjoy your action/adventure game.

R.I.P. Deep, intricate RPGs of Bioware.


I'm getting a little fed up by bitter people on here telling me what I supposedly like. <_<
I don't give all that much about RPGs because I happen to like DA2? And action/adventure games is all that I enjoy? Really?? Man, you know absolutely zip about me and should really keep those ignorant assumptions locked away at your shrine of predjudice!
Unlike some people here (it seems), I'm not single-minded when it comes to games. I enjoy a plethora of genres, from the old text adventures to mindless modern shooters. Try to expand your horizons a little bit. Seriously.

Also, FYI, defending something you enjoy doesn't automatically mean you're blind to its shortcomings.

#91
Conway044

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The_Eejit wrote...

General Flynt wrote...

I agree with pretty much everything stated here. The problem with so many newcomers to Dragon Age and RPGs in general is we get things like Dragon Age 2 ... These people that are praising it must not have anything in their background to compare it to because the bar is being set very low if this is a " great" game.  Maybe the only RPG they played was Two Worlds ?

It is not  acceptable for a $60 sequel . It is not a movie . Maybe on 11/11/11 people will understand 


I think the different generations is an issue as well. They may have nothing to reference DA2 too, so may not understand the frustrations when comparing it to other RPGs. If you were new to movies, and you saw Transformers 2 or hostel, you may think those movies were masterpieces. Maybe thats why its important to keep old genre's and styles around, so they can experience the meduim as it was when other generations experienced them? Maybe there will always be a need for a new DA:O to be around to keep CRPG's a known genre?

We say, My god I miss games like x-com and Doom, and they look at them and see a fossil. They look at these new age games and say they are great, and all we older folk see are kid's toys? 


I can't stand posts like these.  Anyone who likes game [x] must be an ignorant child and never played a "good" game like back when I was young. 

DA 2 was a fine game, not a classic RPG throwback like DA:O but still a  7 or 8 out of 10.  

I'm 36 and have been playing cRPG's since the AD&D SSI days.  Actually since the AD&D game on the Intellivision console, but I figured that wasn't something that was widely played/remembered.

#92
djackson75

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Conway044 wrote...

The_Eejit wrote...

General Flynt wrote...

I agree with pretty much everything stated here. The problem with so many newcomers to Dragon Age and RPGs in general is we get things like Dragon Age 2 ... These people that are praising it must not have anything in their background to compare it to because the bar is being set very low if this is a " great" game.  Maybe the only RPG they played was Two Worlds ?

It is not  acceptable for a $60 sequel . It is not a movie . Maybe on 11/11/11 people will understand 


I think the different generations is an issue as well. They may have nothing to reference DA2 too, so may not understand the frustrations when comparing it to other RPGs. If you were new to movies, and you saw Transformers 2 or hostel, you may think those movies were masterpieces. Maybe thats why its important to keep old genre's and styles around, so they can experience the meduim as it was when other generations experienced them? Maybe there will always be a need for a new DA:O to be around to keep CRPG's a known genre?

We say, My god I miss games like x-com and Doom, and they look at them and see a fossil. They look at these new age games and say they are great, and all we older folk see are kid's toys? 


I can't stand posts like these.  Anyone who likes game [x] must be an ignorant child and never played a "good" game like back when I was young. 

DA 2 was a fine game, not a classic RPG throwback like DA:O but still a  7 or 8 out of 10.  

I'm 36 and have been playing cRPG's since the AD&D SSI days.  Actually since the AD&D game on the Intellivision console, but I figured that wasn't something that was widely played/remembered.




I turn 36 in 2 months. I bought Pac-Man on the Atari 2600 when it was new. I played Dungeons and Dragons on the freakin' Intellivision.

I beat Pool of Radiance on the Commodore 64
I beat A Bard's Tale

I love Dragon Age 2.

#93
neppakyo

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You beat Pool of Radiance? Man.. you got patience..

#94
Schneidend

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Ah, right, "If you like DA2 and defend it from its detractors, you are destroying the gaming industry."

Either trolling, or just a pretentious douche.

#95
djackson75

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neppakyo wrote...

You beat Pool of Radiance? Man.. you got patience..

Yeah man, I just watched a youtube of the game to remember the old days..

Oh my god......how the heck did I play that game? 




#96
moilami

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The_Eejit wrote...

 This forum has been a war zone since DA2 released. We have people on both sides hurling insults at each other.


I think we have to stop for a moment and consider what we are doing. This is the same fight we see all too often these days. It is ok to enjoy DA2, if you find it fun, thats great. It is also great for people who enjoy dragon age 2 to give their opinions and to debate with people who don't like the game. But there is a line you can cross when it comes to defending a video game, and many have crossed it. I think we can agree that EA and Bioware don't need people to defend them in everyway possible, and to silence anyone who has an issue with either of the companys, especially in this all too common situation.


The gaming industry is quite large at this time, and there is a lot of money to be made. This is a good thing, but also extremely bad left un-moderated. At this time, gaming is also more widespread than it has ever been, with everybody from all walks of life now playing video games on their downtime. This is a good thing, but also a bad thing. Both of these factors can, and are, really hurting video games themselves. You have big corp's like EA and Activision cashing in on these new audiences, by releasing cut-down, simplified games, and giving them a "bad boy" attitude, as seen in the large number of grey-brown shooters, and the lack of colour or imagination in the majority of genre's (just go into a game store, and look at the sheer number of modern day shooter's etc).


If you put something like Gears Of War on the shelf, the game will appeal to pre-teens/teens and the jock/neo-rap/pubcrawler crowd's, looking for something with gore and beefy men to keep with their "hardcore" image. If you put something like civilization 3/4 or baldur's gate on the shelf, most of the new video game audience will stay away from them, calling them too deep, boring, colourful(thus "gay" in neo-frat gang terminology), and too hard. 


So thus, many big corp's, to appeal to the mainstream, will release extremely simple games, generally sticking to the FPS genre, with "hardcore" grey, brown bloody violence and a load of big men (ironic that the primary schooler will call zelda "gay", while drooling over large men with guns). 


This brings us to the next issue. Its no secret that you have large corp's everywhere, in every industry, that see everything on the planet as money. It is also no secret that they care not for tomorrow, and that only what money they can make today counts. They don't care if any game they release is fun or even functional, they don't care if they ruin a franchise, they only care that its made quickly and cheaply, and that it cashes in on the fans of whatever company they are in the process of pillaging. 


This is what happen to Dragon Age 2. Its a shell of a game, a clear warning that these big suits couldn't care less about entertainment value or being faithful to customers. Everything about Dragon Age 2 is a rushed mess, made as quickly as possible to make a quick buck. 


When you defend a mess like Dragon Age 2, when you call it flawless, when you beg for DLC, your hurting the gaming industry. Your telling these fat men on the 6 hundred and 66th floor that its ok to sell lemon's. If consumers don't demand better, we won't get better, and the only way to make them listen is with your wallet and then with what you praise. We should always be pointing out faults, always giving suggestions on what to improve, and giving praise for great ideas. We should never, ever, reward business behavior like this.


I am not saying you have to throw the game away, I'm not saying your not allowed to have fun with it, I'm saying your teaching these fat kids that they can do whatever they want, and your blind faith, love and praise while Bobby Jr and EA the 3rd are trashing your house is completely wrong. They are a company, not your freind, if you want better, you have to reward and punish where its due.


If your going to sit there and have no problem with EA and Bioware releasing a rushed mess with nothing to do with the franchise, thats terrible in everyway, using your faith and the money of the pre-teens who are attracted to this extremely simple RPG, then you have something wrong with you. Don't get robbed, then defend the robbers because they left you a piece of toast. Demand better. 


Every company is out to make a profit, but when your in the entertainment industry, you better be out to make something entertaining as well. Don't let these big wigs get away with it, please. At this rate DA3 will be just as bad, because what incentive do they have to do better? Its up to you, I just hope you can see the big picture.
Thankyou.


 -- P.S -- Sorry Bits of it were a little harsh, and came off as an angry rant(and lord knows we have far too many of them).

- I just think we as a consumer have a right to demand finished and well made products, and that they put a little care into what they put on the shelves. They want money, we want entertainment, so we shouldn't let them get away with our money without giving us a game worth the price tag. We are like parents, we must teach them what we will let them get away with and what we won't stand for. They need us.-


A very good posting.

I for one would love to see a second renessance of cRPGs.


Edit: The first one was in '80. More than 20 years ago. A tiny renessance came around 2000, but it was nothing when compared to '80s.

Modifié par moilami, 19 mars 2011 - 03:51 .


#97
neppakyo

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djackson75 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

You beat Pool of Radiance? Man.. you got patience..

Yeah man, I just watched a youtube of the game to remember the old days..

Oh my god......how the heck did I play that game? 



Damn, I forgot how turn based it was lol

#98
Nozybidaj

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Veex wrote...

In a nutshell for the "TLDR" crowd. If you like the game, your opinion is wrong and you're just a sheep. You can't defend a game you like because the OP thinks it was bad and demands better!


I don't disagree with your assessment, but there is a grain of truth in it.  The market is saturated with below average and crap games, DLC barely worth the time it takes to download, and just a general lack of creativity and people just eat it up.  Developers and publishers have no reason really to try and excel as long as people continue to buy it.

There are a few developers out there where quality and play experience still matter but that number is growing smaller every day it seems.

#99
jerst

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I must agree with the OP


It is not about liking or disliking a game, but asking for a finished game.


It kills me to see people saying stuff like

"It's a great game ! I hope they'll soon make a patch and fix this"
"It's a great game ! I hope they'll soon give a toolset so the custommers can fix X issue instead of Bioware"

And if only it was just for Dragon Age 2.


I wish I could sold a house without plumbing for the same price as a house with plumbing and get away with it only by saying

"Oh, I will probably add the plombing some days, don't worry ! But here is a toolbox, ask you're neighbour to do it if you can't wait"

#100
OmegaBlue0231

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jerst wrote...

I must agree with the OP


It is not about liking or disliking a game, but asking for a finished game.


It kills me to see people saying stuff like

"It's a great game ! I hope they'll soon make a patch and fix this"
"It's a great game ! I hope they'll soon give a toolset so the custommers can fix X issue instead of Bioware"

And if only it was just for Dragon Age 2.


I wish I could sold a house without plumbing for the same price as a house with plumbing and get away with it only by saying

"Oh, I will probably add the plombing some days, don't worry ! But here is a toolbox, ask you're neighbour to do it if you can't wait"


Would you rather wait a few months for a patch or a couple of years of extra devolpment time like back in the day?

Modifié par OmegaBlue0231, 19 mars 2011 - 04:40 .