100 réponses à ce sujet

[blauterranit]

what a better challenge than be a mage and reach freindship and love from Fenris?
Lost causes are funny to defend :-) And rivality between they could be by gelousy... ;-)

At Awaking I missed a romance with Anders, so he's 1 of my favourite PNG, but.. Fenris has a touch of ... don't know! but I like it (maybe all fatal and handsome Elves (Zevran included) make me do what I do) :-D Maker!!!

[Thiefy]

Balthamoss wrote...

But it's true that they all have their douche moments, except Isabela

she left me to clean up her qunari mess. that's douchey enough for me

[Shockwave Pulsar]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Balthamoss wrote...

But it's true that they all have their douche moments, except Isabela

she left me to clean up her qunari mess. that's douchey enough for me

Well, the mess was not her fault, but other reasons like that chantry sister inciting hate against the Qunari and Qunary being killed by Templars, it really had nothing to do with the relic. And if you're nice to Isabela, she does come back shortly after she gets the relict, gives it back and offers to duel the Arishok herself.
But back to topic : The fundamental difference of everyone's douchebaggery and that of Anders is that he is the only one who makes others willingly suffer and die for it.

[TripLight]

Balthamoss wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Balthamoss wrote...

But it's true that they all have their douche moments, except Isabela

she left me to clean up her qunari mess. that's douchey enough for me

Well, the mess was not her fault, but other reasons like that chantry sister inciting hate against the Qunari and Qunary being killed by Templars, it really had nothing to do with the relic. And if you're nice to Isabela, she does come back shortly after she gets the relict, gives it back and offers to duel the Arishok herself.
But back to topic : The fundamental difference of everyone's douchebaggery and that of Anders is that he is the only one who makes others willingly suffer and die for it.

Yes, it was, she knew about the book all along. She didn't tell anyone about it until she found it though. She is the reason the Qunari were in Kirkwall in the first place. And she does Betray Hawke if he Rival/Frienship is not high enough. I love Isabela, but the Qunari IS her fault.

Modifié par TripLight, 20 mars 2011 - 01:51 .

[Shockwave Pulsar]

TripLight wrote...

Balthamoss wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Balthamoss wrote...

But it's true that they all have their douche moments, except Isabela

she left me to clean up her qunari mess. that's douchey enough for me

Well, the mess was not her fault, but other reasons like that chantry sister inciting hate against the Qunari and Qunary being killed by Templars, it really had nothing to do with the relic. And if you're nice to Isabela, she does come back shortly after she gets the relict, gives it back and offers to duel the Arishok herself.
But back to topic : The fundamental difference of everyone's douchebaggery and that of Anders is that he is the only one who makes others willingly suffer and die for it.

Yes, it was, she knew about the book all along. She didn't tell anyone about it until she found it though. She is the reason the Qunari were in Kirkwall in the first place. And she does Betray Hawke if he Rival/Frienship is not high enough. I love Isabela, but the Qunari IS her fault.

It was her fault that the Qunary stranded there, yes. But that's where her responsibility ends, unless she's the secret boss of Sister Petrice (whatever her name was) and the Qunary killers. But that's really off topic so I'll stop here 

[Nassegris]

Fenris doesn’t get a free pass, as such, from me, but I ’get’ him. His hate is rooted in a horrible, abusive past, with plenty of hints that he suffered greatly, both because of the lyrium and at the hands of his master. Beaten down, time and time again, until he’s nearly broken. The way that Denarius speaks to him more than just hints at other types of abuse as well. I’ve seen the clip where you sell him out to his master and it just about broke my heart. In spite of all of this, though, he can still follow a mage, and still be in the same group as mages, though as he says – he’ll keep a watchful eye on them. If you stand by him, he will soften up and open up and eventually, become more accepting towards mages though he still have a very strong view on blood mages.

To be honest, so do I. Merril’s antics with blood magic really tick me off, especially given what happens to Hawke’s mother.

Anyway, on the flipside, Anders is uncompromising unless it's himself he's talking about.He can at once hate blood mages but somehow be fine with being possessed by a spirit/demon and blowing up a church filled with people. He is hateful to the point where it’s hard to keep him in a group if you don’t share his extreme point of view, and as
the story moves on… well, we all know what happens. Your love, your consideration and affection, your friendship and the friendship of the others in the group, none of this makes one whit of difference. Instead of softened, by the time act 3 rolls around, he’s fanatic, a rabid dog worked into a frothy drool. He goes and stabs you in the back, figuratively speaking, leaving you with the horrible choice of
very literally stabbing him in the back for justice for the people who died, or letting him go though he clearly did a ghastly thing.

I’m sorry, Fenris can be pretty harsh, no doubt about it. That’s usually how people have lived a harsh life come across, the challenge is to get under their skin and wrap silk over their wounds. In the end, if you have been kind to him and loved him as a friend, he will stand by you no matter what, whereas no amount of kindness or talk or velvety bandages can make Anders change his mind. He doesn’t hate a templar, not a single individual with the hate spread across the rest by association, he hates ALL of them, no matter what, and everyone around them by association, and if he can get away with it, he’ll kill them to prove a point.


Great character, btw, but I really wanted to punch his face in by the end.

Modifié par Nassegris, 20 mars 2011 - 02:16 .

[wicked_being]

To whomever wrote the Anders character, kudos to you. He's managed to rank second in my "most hated villains in the 21st century." He's a hypocrite and a terrorist. I just can't see how some people see him as romanceable (sorry Anders fangirls).

[Sarah1281]

It was her fault that the Qunary stranded there, yes. But that's where her responsibility ends, unless she's the secret boss of Sister Petrice (whatever her name was) and the Qunary killers.

If the qunari cannot leave until they find the book and Isabela is keeping the book from them, what do you think was going to happen? If not Petrice and her minion then someone else would have done something or the Arishok would have lost patience and decided to save everybody all on his own. The situation with the qunari could not have continued forever and they would not leave until the relic was found.

[Taura-Tierno]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It was her fault that the Qunary stranded there, yes. But that's where her responsibility ends, unless she's the secret boss of Sister Petrice (whatever her name was) and the Qunary killers.

If the qunari cannot leave until they find the book and Isabela is keeping the book from them, what do you think was going to happen? If not Petrice and her minion then someone else would have done something or the Arishok would have lost patience and decided to save everybody all on his own. The situation with the qunari could not have continued forever and they would not leave until the relic was found.

But Isabela wasn't keeping the book from them. She didn't know where it was until she found out at the end of Act 2. She got Hawke and went after it the moment she knew where to find it. Speaking up about the book earlier would've changed nothing. Nobody would've known where the book was, so nobody could've given it to the Qunari. It was only incidentally her fault that they got stranded in Kirkwall, but other than that, she doesn't have a whole lot of blame. 

[blauterranit]

Anders not an hipocrite, just simply.
At DAOA you realize he is a little bit coward, unsure and not proclive to sacrifice himself for a noble cause. The Heroe recuited him front templars, but he not was a badboy... Only weak, even sensible (he adores kittens!!!) but Justice is a spirit, a very strong spirit who are slowly fading Anders's personality. He mistaked helping Justice... and pay the price. Don't be so cruel with him!!!

(in the next party I'll kill, it's time to me be a freind of Templars for once!)

Sorry, I'd like explain myself better but my english restrict my freedom to writte all I tihink :-) I do the best

[Shockwave Pulsar]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

It was her fault that the Qunary stranded there, yes. But that's where her responsibility ends, unless she's the secret boss of Sister Petrice (whatever her name was) and the Qunary killers.

If the qunari cannot leave until they find the book and Isabela is keeping the book from them, what do you think was going to happen? If not Petrice and her minion then someone else would have done something or the Arishok would have lost patience and decided to save everybody all on his own. The situation with the qunari could not have continued forever and they would not leave until the relic was found.

But Isabela wasn't keeping the book from them. She didn't know where it was until she found out at the end of Act 2. She got Hawke and went after it the moment she knew where to find it. Speaking up about the book earlier would've changed nothing. Nobody would've known where the book was, so nobody could've given it to the Qunari. It was only incidentally her fault that they got stranded in Kirkwall, but other than that, she doesn't have a whole lot of blame. 

Exactly, she didn't have the book, so she couldn't give it to them. Once she did get the book, she gave it to them (at least on the friendship path ), before that there was nothing she could have done.

Modifié par Balthamoss, 20 mars 2011 - 04:49 .

[ejoslin]

Valentia X wrote...

Eh, you think Fenris would be any kinder if Hawke chose to dump Anders in the lap of the templars pre-end game?

They're douches to one another because they espouse very different points of view, and they're douches to Merril because she goes to another extreme. The only person who seems generally nice (as in, not cold and pathological) to everyone is Varric. Well, and Aveline, and even then she's extremely rude to Isabela for a lot of the game.

Fenris thinks you should side with the templars, but he doesn't voice an opinion on what should happen to Anders.  There's nothing personal there.

Anders reaction to turning Fenris over to Denarius is sickening.  I'm not even protective over the whole thing -- Anders is so anti-slavery, but he puts that ideal aside for Fenris I guess.

[Sarah1281]

I know! I remember this banter:
Anders: You ever going to stop harping on the mages here?
Fenris: No.
Anders: They aren't what you saw in Tevinter.
Fenris: The moment they are free, mages will make themselves magisters.
Anders: They're slaves! You should want to help them.
Fenris: I don't.
I just want to go "Hey Anders, remember that time you said that Fenris should care about the plight of the mages because it's like slavery? Well don't you think it goes both ways? Imagine we're SELLING HIM TO THE TEMPLARS. Still loving this?"

[ejoslin]

Another thought -- Fenris actually refuses to turn Anders over to the templars in a banter with Sebastion. He hates Anders, thinks he's a dangerous abomination, and perhaps is jealous of him (depending on how the game goes), but it's more about what Anders is -- he is not out to actively hurt Anders.

Anders is all about feelings, though. Good and bad.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 mars 2011 - 08:08 .

[Sarah1281]

I guess this means that Justice finds it more injust that Danarius lost his property than about the fact he's enslaving people in the first place.

[rurza]

//At the beginning - sorry for my English - I am from Poland and I don't speak English good enough to don't make mistakes in gramma etc.

When I met Anders I thought "Wow he's so cute" - and he is cute and charming. He has also such a good voice. And then I met Fenris - better voice and this mysteriousness.

And then I became to know them better - Anders turned out to be crazy (seriously crazy not in funny way). He is selfish and he's not a good man. He is happy if you betray Fenris and sell him to Danarius - is this good?

Fenris critizes Anders - you may say it's not good, but he's right, Anders is kind of dangerous what we see at the last act of game. (+Justice)

Fenris don't like Anders because of his non-controlled magic. He can, why not?

I think I can understand why someone can stand up for Anders - but truly and to be objective Fenris is right.

[Sarah1281]

Fenris doesn't really say that Anders specifically should go to the Circle. He thinks all mages should be there. I don't think that you can objectively say that Anders OR Fenris is right about the Circle. It's a very subjective question.

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

Another thought -- Fenris actually refuses to turn Anders over to the templars in a banter with Sebastion. He hates Anders, thinks he's a dangerous abomination, and perhaps is jealous of him (depending on how the game goes), but it's more about what Anders is -- he is not out to actively hurt Anders.

Anders is all about feelings, though. Good and bad.

That banter was more about respect for Hawke than Anders and Merrill. 

Fenris even tells Seb he'd have to deal with Hawke in that situation. He didn't turn over Anders because of Anders but because of Hawke. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mars 2011 - 10:36 .

[blauterranit]

jealousy!!!, the devil just forgotten in the plot by the gamer when they made ​​the list of demons :-D

[casedawgz]

Anders is a douchebag. He initiated a conversation with me about a romanced Merrill during his Act 3 companion quest, saying that I shouldn't trust her and how she would betray me. Merrill was IN the party. Additionally, this conversation came up during a quest where Anders is actively betraying you. Not to mention all the Fenris stuff.

[Sarah1281]

Would it have been any better if he did it behind Merrill's back?

[casedawgz]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Would it have been any better if he did it behind Merrill's back?

It would have. If he had approached Hawke alone and said that he was worried about Hawke's relationship with Merrill, I could have simply told him that he was wrong and had that be the end of it. But it was really kinda terrible to hear the pain in Merrill's voice after Anders says terrible things about her as if she isn't standing right there. Also, his allegations of betrayal are extremely hypocritical. I spent the whole dungeon run in the sewer getting the reagents for him mutttering "Anders, you bastard."

[dirtsa90]

Bringing Anders to Fenris' act3 quest was one of the moments in the game I really disliked him (I generally liked Anders, sadly he became so warped by Vengeance and hatred  .)
That he actually says, when you realize Varania is a mage: "Your sister is a mage. You bloody hypocrite. Your're just jealous" or something along that line. I wanted the option to slap him or at least yell at him so much at that moment. 

[Thiefy]

Balthamoss wrote...

TripLight wrote...

Balthamoss wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Balthamoss wrote...

But it's true that they all have their douche moments, except Isabela

she left me to clean up her qunari mess. that's douchey enough for me

Well, the mess was not her fault, but other reasons like that chantry sister inciting hate against the Qunari and Qunary being killed by Templars, it really had nothing to do with the relic. And if you're nice to Isabela, she does come back shortly after she gets the relict, gives it back and offers to duel the Arishok herself.
But back to topic : The fundamental difference of everyone's douchebaggery and that of Anders is that he is the only one who makes others willingly suffer and die for it.

Yes, it was, she knew about the book all along. She didn't tell anyone about it until she found it though. She is the reason the Qunari were in Kirkwall in the first place. And she does Betray Hawke if he Rival/Frienship is not high enough. I love Isabela, but the Qunari IS her fault.

It was her fault that the Qunary stranded there, yes. But that's where her responsibility ends, unless she's the secret boss of Sister Petrice (whatever her name was) and the Qunary killers. But that's really off topic so I'll stop here 

Actually had she been upfront from the beginning we (Hawke's party) could have put resources into finding the book instead of say, slaying giant spiders in a cave somewhere, and get them out of there since we knew that trouble was rising, or, here is a thought - help the qunari look for the book with the info that we would have known.

would it have worked? we will never know, but what we do know is that once we find the book, Isabella takes off with it, regardless of whatever your affinity is with her. She takes off BEFORE the assualt of the Qunari.

I'll bet that if Hawke had the book in his/her possession before the Arishok signaled an attack on the city something entirely different could have been worked out. Isabella only comes back after most of the fighting is done and that's only *if* she likes you enough.

So yes, I still blame her for all those problems.

[Taura-Tierno]

Anders is a hypocrite. He's all about how mages should be free, that the Templars are wrong and mages aren't (that) dangerous, and they don't consort with demons any chance they get, etc. Yet Anders, simply by agreeing to merge with Justice, proved the Templars right. He's a walking falsification of his own opinions.