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[jbblue05]

DPSSOC wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Shepard swore an oath to serve the Allliance.
The Alliance saved you from Slavers, helped you escape poverty on Earth, or you have an strong Alliance pedigree and spent your whole childhood on Alliance ships. Spent 10+ years in the Alliance, gave you a brand new protoype ship

So why wouldn't Shepard work with the Alliance?.

A fair question, part of it could be the fact the Alliance hasn't done a good job of protecting it's citizens.  Keep in mind what the Alliance military doctrine is, minimal garrisons for defense and hope someone can get a warning off soon enough for the fleet to get there for something other than clean-up.  This doctrine, while it may be sensible, is in part responsible for what happened on Eden Prime, Elysium, and Feros.  Some people could also feel the Alliance is selling out the species to make good with the Council (to hell with borders and jurisdiction the colonies in the Terminus were our people).  Or perhaps they simply don't want to be placed under someone else's command (most likely a rather incompetent somene else.

Personally I don't want to rejoin the Alliance because they've proven to be remarkably ineffective.  Their response to Eden Prime was to do nothing, their response to Batarian agression is to do nothing (well nothing proactive), they are, in short, a do nothing government.  I wouldn't mind having them as allies but I will not submit to their authority.

As for Shepard's oath depending on the wording it could be null and void (cancelled upon Shepard's death if not Spectre initiation) or open to intepretation as to how best to "serve the Alliance".  Alas we'll never know.

Shepard has his/her own personality, the player just steers Shepard down a certain path. Shepard is pro-alliance no matter what the player thinks.  Shepard chose to join the Alliance and gives his/her life defending the interests of the Alliance.  Even if the player hates humans or doesn't care about colonists in the terminus systems  Shepard chooses to save those colonists. 

Since Shepard is por-human and the Alliance is the face of humanity to the other races, I believe Shepard is pro-Alliance.

Shepard not joining the Alliance is like people who want to kill Morrigan in Dragon age and destroy Cerberus during the Reapers invasion..  Makes no sense and is Childish 

No organization is perfect you can easily say every organization is ineffective and incompetent if you just look at only the negative side of the organization.. 

The Alliance isn't a do-nothing government, they're not reckless. The Alliance responded to Batarian aggression and pirate raids.  You remember Torfan, the Ain Jalut

[DPSSOC]

jbblue05 wrote...
Shepard has his/her own personality, the player just steers Shepard down a certain path. Shepard is pro-alliance no matter what the player thinks.  Shepard chose to join the Alliance and gives his/her life defending the interests of the Alliance.  Even if the player hates humans or doesn't care about colonists in the terminus systems  Shepard chooses to save those colonists. 

Since Shepard is por-human and the Alliance is the face of humanity to the other races, I believe Shepard is pro-Alliance.

Bit of a leap but I suppose.  Keep in mind that through ME1 Shepard can voice doubts about the effectiveness of the Alliance and tell Hackett where to stuff his odd jobs.  Shepard is the hero that doesn't make him pro-Alliance.  Furthermore ME2 gives us a grand opportunity for Shepard's mind to change.  Maybe after waking up after two years to find the Alliance has ignored his warnings, destroyed everything he'd built up, and allowed him to be publicly slandered Shepard's opinion has soured somewhat.  Or maybe after working with Cerberus he's disinclined to simply trade one leash for another.

jbblue05 wrote...
Shepard not joining the Alliance is like people who want to kill Morrigan in Dragon age and destroy Cerberus during the Reapers invasion..  Makes no sense and is Childish

Like I said I'd have no problem working with the Alliance, just as I'd have no problem working with the Council, but I denied Spectre reinstatement and given the option will deny Alliance reinstatement because while I will work with them I'd prefer not to work for them (fool me once and all that). 

jbblue05 wrote...
No organization is perfect you can easily say every organization is ineffective and incompetent if you just look at only the negative side of the organization.

And you're welcome to present the positive side and we'll see where the scale settles.

jbblue05 wrote...
The Alliance isn't a do-nothing government, they're not reckless. The Alliance responded to Batarian aggression and pirate raids.  You remember Torfan, the Ain Jalut

The Ain Jalut would be...(checks wiki)  Huh.  Well I may need to reconsider my stance on the Citadel newsnet (generally ignore them).  Ok so I retract my statement the Alliance has 1 proactive response to Batarian aggression.  As for Torfan yes that was an action but it stood alone (until the Ain Jalut).  There was no follow up, no push, no further attempts made to discourage the criminals the Batarians were funding from targeting the Alliance.  The Batarians didn't stop after Torfan, they may have slowed down, and it took the Alliance 7 years to respond to that.  Also we've been dealing with Batarian aggression for upwards of 20 years and have exactly 2 responses in a span of 7 years; either they've increased their activity recently or the Alliance is really, really bad at this.

[Pwener2313]

Did this turn into a "I hate Cerberus" thread? I'll gladly defend Cerberus if that's the case.

[omgodzilla]

jbblue05 wrote...

Shepard swore an oath to serve the Allliance.
The Alliance saved you from Slavers, helped you escape poverty on Earth, or you have an strong Alliance pedigree and spent your whole childhood on Alliance ships. Spent 10+ years in the Alliance, gave you a brand new protoype ship

So why wouldn't Shepard work with the Alliance?.

Some of you don't want to re-join the Alliance because they don't hero-worship you and treat you like a demigod?

If your pro-cerberus than you should have no problems working with the Alliance they are partners in crime a dynamic duo.

Shepard is a spectre. He doesn't have any kind of oath to them anymore since they have no authority over him. The reason I don't wanna join the Alliance is because they're not badass enough to have Shepard. I mean Ill work with them as long as I am the one calling the shots and they are simply one of the many factions under my command during the war. Seriously, I don't wanna take orders from people who are far less competent than me. The only way that we're getting anything done is if Shepard is in charge. I don't really care if they give us an option to stay with Cerberus or not but I atleast want the option of being able to go my own way and not have any allegiences to anyone.

Modifié par omgodzilla, 20 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[Asheer_Khan]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Did this turn into a "I hate Cerberus" thread? I'll gladly defend Cerberus if that's the case.

No, it's just looks like BW decided that failberus served his (questionable) purpose in ME 2 and now can get kick off the big stage and replaced by Alliance as key player in ME 3.

However without any serious informations about Arrival content  whole subject about what role Alliance will play there, and fact that Hacket will made his personal appearance in entire story indicate that this role might be really significant and Arrival DLC might really heavy influenced how ME 3 will start.

[Pwener2313]

It the endgame for ME2 where the Reaper finally arrive, of course it's important. After this DLC, we won't get to continue ME2.

[AiLeO]

The Alliance lost a few good men fighting at the Battle of the Citadel. They don't really have the man power to deal with the Collectors. Cut them some slack. And since when did being dead make you not a part of the military anymore?

[Pwener2313]

AiLeO wrote...

The Alliance lost a few good men fighting at the Battle of the Citadel. They don't really have the man power to deal with the Collectors. Cut them some slack. And since when did being dead make you not a part of the military anymore?

Actually, that's if you saved the council. If you abandoned them (smart choice) then they can't investigate because they are overwhelmed with political responsability.

[DPSSOC]

AiLeO wrote...

The Alliance lost a few good men fighting at the Battle of the Citadel. They don't really have the man power to deal with the Collectors. Cut them some slack. And since when did being dead make you not a part of the military anymore?

They couldn't spare 40 people?

[Arokel]

I for one am done with the Alliance and the Council ("ah yes, Reapers"), at least on my mainshep. I do not agree with everything Cerberus does (e.g. Operation Overlord), but they are the only ones willing to take on the Reapers and their minions.

Personaly I hope that at the end of Arrival Admiral Hackett offers to renew our comission with the Alliance or stay with Cerberus. Would be a good way to setup for ME3 imo.

Modifié par Arokel, 20 mars 2011 - 01:57 .

[Pwener2313]

DPSSOC wrote...

AiLeO wrote...

The Alliance lost a few good men fighting at the Battle of the Citadel. They don't really have the man power to deal with the Collectors. Cut them some slack. And since when did being dead make you not a part of the military anymore?

They couldn't spare 40 people?

The alliance doesn't have the time to make an advanced ship, gat the best of the best and find another Shepard.

[Naltair]

Arvuti wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I hope it isn't forced but damn it I love the Alliance and the Council, Cerberus can kill itself.

Where the hell was the Alliance or the Council when Normandy was blown to pieces and the only man / woman who can save the galaxy died a slow and painful death. Without Cerberus Shepard would still be either pile of skin and bones or being experimented on by the collectors.

You died, obviously someone came to rescue the crew and you were dead, there is no ressurection technology until the Lazarus project.  How can you blame the Alliance/Council for not bringing you back when the technology did not exist?

The only good thing that Cerberus does it that, and I, as Shepard, fulfilled my obligation by defeating the Collectors.  After that what I do is my business and my first order of business was to break ties with an organization that I do not respect or beelive has the best interest of humanity or the gaalctic community at large.

As for Illusive Man running the Alliance, that is speculation at best.

Edit: As an aside my Shepard is not pro-human he is all for the galactic society as a whole and believes no single species can fight the Reapers on their own.

Modifié par Naltair, 20 mars 2011 - 02:01 .

[Pwener2313]

Arokel wrote...

I for one am done with the Alliance and the Council ("ah yes, Reapers"), at least on my mainshep. I do not agree with everything Cerberus does (e.g. Operation Overlord), but they are the only ones willing to take on the Reapers and their minions.

Personaly I hope that at the end of Arrival Admiral Hackett offers to renew our comission with the Alliance or stay with Cerberus. Would be a good way to setup for ME3 imo.

Dido

[Naltair]

I agree it would be nice to make that choice once and for all at the end of Arrival, as I already broke ties with Cerberus by the end of ME2 I am pretty sure working with the Alliance would be my next step for my Shepard.

[Pwener2313]

That decision would really end all the rivalry and problems that everybody has with Cerberus and the Alliance.

[LordAnguis]

It would be good for them to have an option open at the end of Arrival or the beginning of ME3 where we can choose Alliance, Cerberus, or Independent Operative.
jblue05, you said that there's no where in ME2 that Shepard mentions wanting to be part of Cerberus, or at least that's what's suggested in your statements. And I quote:
Miranda: I wish Cerberus had approached you earlier.
Shepard (choosing bottom option): So do I. (The words are the ones you select. Can't remember the full sentence right now).
Also, the Renegade option implies you're staying part of Cerberus.
In regards to the whole 'Cerberus/Alliance rivalry', both groups have their good and bad points. Jacob points out the Alliance's during your discussion before you head to Freedom's Progress. Cerberus, as we know, has had a history of 'human supremacy'. Here's the way I see it: It depends on the playthrough. My SoldierShep is a Paragon who destroyed the base, and he works with aliens as much as he can, respects other cultures. He romanced Liara in the first game, but he's romanced Miranda in ME2.
My EngineerShep is a Renegade who had no love interest, let the Council die, and is going to be a loyal operative of Cerberus.
My future AdeptShep is going to be a Paragade, and he's going to keep his Spectre status but save the base. The Paragon dialogue when you do that (top-most dialogue if your confused) gives the impression that Shepard is telling TIM he either has to work for Shepard or kiss his *** goodbye.
My last 3 playthroughs are going to be whatever I feel like at the time. But for the most part, I like Cerberus. Yeah, they have that human supremacist tendency. But think about what things are like in the 'world' of Mass Effect. You have the Council Spectres, Salarian STG, Asari Commandos, and I'm sure the Turians have a special group. All of these would, if turned against humanity, decimate us. The Alliance wants to stay on good terms with the alien races, and that's good and all, but here's the thing: how many hoops does humanity have to jump through to 'make nice' with the Turians, who are, in my opinion, the miserable *** who are truly at fault. Why do I say this? Here's why.
The First Contact War wouldn't have happened if whatever TURIAN captain had used his brain! The way the Turians act, they should have a logical thinking process. Logic would suggest that, if their scans didn't recognize a vessel's configuration, that the race it belonged to weren't aware of the Council's edict about opening inactive Relays. The proper procedure would have been to make contact via communications. Did the Turians do this? No. They opened fire, killed several humans, and chased them to Shanxi, which they occupied until the Alliance sent a fleet to kick them off. The Turians than attempted to respond with a full-scale war, only being stopped when the Asari Councilor, not any of the others, intervened.
Now, take into your thought processes this information: yes, Cerberus wanted to create some kind of super-soldier. We shut those down. Yes, they attempted to interface a human with a VI. We get to choose whether to shut it down or keep it going. Finally, Cerberus sent Miranda to work with Jacob in an effort to save the Council from a Batarian plot. Anyone want to guess the Salarians know it was Cerberus who stopped the Batarians? And yet, the Salarian Councilor and the others say Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council.
As far as I'm concerned, the COuncil is worthless, and the Allianceis too busy trying to keep themselves from facing off against the Council races to do a dang thing. Also, here's something else to think about: TIM wants to preserve humanity, yes? Well, he's not about to start a full-scale war with the other races in the galaxy. One race, humans, against Turians, Asari, Salarians, Batarians, Krogan..... Need I go on? That would not suit Cerberus's desire to keep humanity safe.
Also, if Cerberus was such an enemy of the Council, they would have been the ones behind the attack on the Council that Jacob and Miranda stopped. And yes, I'm sure the anti-Cerberus crowd already has an argument for that. "They paid the Batarians!" Well here's my question: Cerberus, we know from the mission debriefings in ME2, doesn't have much of a presence on the Citadel, which is why they don't know about Joram Talid and are considering recruiting Bailey. If they 'paid the Batarians', how the heck could they get them on the Citadel? No, sorry. The only way the Batarians could get on the Citadel to attempt their little explosion or whatever, is if a race with approved access (such as a Council race) let them. And anyone who mentions they 'saw a chance' to get rid of the old Council hear Udina's comment, which implies the idea that he would do something like that. Also, some of the information about Udina from the Mass Effect Wiki suggests he has thoughts along the same lines that many consider Cerberus to be. So the question is this: Is Udina a Cerberus plant? I don't think so. Also, if Cerberus was so against aliens, why are most of the dossiers in ME2 for non-humans? Surely there's a bunch of human mercenaries with such skills available?
Well, I've written enough for now. As far as my playthrough's are concerned, only two are slated for either Alliance or Cerberus.

[Pwener2313]

@LordAnguis: Shepard says; "I wish your people would have made the offer".

[AiLeO]

Pwener2313 wrote...

That decision would really end all the rivalry and problems that everybody has with Cerberus and the Alliance.

Agreed. Although if there isn't a choice, I am a firm believer in raging against the system. I know I took great pleasure in annoying TIM every chance I had.

[LordAnguis]

Pwener2313 wrote...

@LordAnguis: Shepard says; "I wish your people would have made the offer".

Thanks for that. I knew it was basically him stating that he would've joined sooner if he had the chance, just couldn't remember the exact words.
 Pwener, I'm guessing you're mainly a Cerberus fan? Just your posts suggest so.

[Pwener2313]

Yes, yes I am. Human Dominance!

[Xilizhra]

Choosing between the Alliance and Cerberus strikes me as unnecessary. I believe that it's more likely to be a choice between Cerberus and the Council, and the Alliance will be basically nonfunctional.

[Pwener2313]

Xilizhra wrote...

Choosing between the Alliance and Cerberus strikes me as unnecessary. I believe that it's more likely to be a choice between Cerberus and the Council, and the Alliance will be basically nonfunctional.

That doesn't make much sense if, like me, you killed the council and the Alliance took control. In that case, the Alliance is the same as the council.

[Xilizhra]

Pwener2313 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Choosing between the Alliance and Cerberus strikes me as unnecessary. I believe that it's more likely to be a choice between Cerberus and the Council, and the Alliance will be basically nonfunctional.

That doesn't make much sense if, like me, you killed the council and the Alliance took control. In that case, the Alliance is the same as the council.

True, I should elaborate. The Council, I believe, will be an ally in ME3 if you saved them. If not, the new one will either be totally ineffective or will be killed off at the beginning at the game. Similarly, Cerberus will be an ally if you saved the base in ME2; if you destroyed it, they'll be too weak to help much, or will possibly be rounded up and captured early on. If you saved both, you'll need to choose between them. If you saved neither... hope that your other allies can do the job.

[LordAnguis]

Xilizhra wrote...

Choosing between the Alliance and Cerberus strikes me as unnecessary. I believe that it's more likely to be a choice between Cerberus and the Council, and the Alliance will be basically nonfunctional.

If this were the case, than most people will have already chosen. The whole idea of whether you reinstate yourself as Spectre. Unless, of course, its the Renegade Shep who killed the Council and chose Udina. Then it would be necessary. But frankly, I don't see anyone actually wanting to work with Udina. I actually only choose him for a Renegade Shepard who saves the Council, so I can tell the Council to stuff it and then tell him I told them that. I love enraging him.

Pwener, glad to see someone else who finds Cerberus interesting. Besides, they actually do get the job done. The Council's Spectres, we've seen, are easily persuaded to do something else. (Saren, then the Spectre who the SB bribes to kill Liara, apparently. Not to mention Shepard in the first one, if he decides to sell the Cerberus information to the SB). Cerberus, while mainly uncontrolled by a 'government', is funded by people who don't want to see their money wasted.
 I prefer Cerberus over Alliance. I only plan for one playthrough, the SOldier, to be Alliance-loyal. The rest are either gonna be Cerberus or Independent.



Besides, if we go back to the Alliance as a male Shepard, we might end up having to deal with Ashley Williams, aka the Xenophobe who denies it, and is a **** because you're open about your decisions rather than hiding. (I personally see Ash as having similar views as Cerberus, but she can't get over the whole 'Williams's are worthless). As it is, I only have one playthrough where she's alive so far. The rest, she stays with the nuke.

 Besides, if I'm going to be in a relationship with a 'xenophobic', I'll pick Miranda. She's hotter. 

[AiLeO]

I think this is what Bioware meant by paragon players might have screwed themselves.