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Jedi Mage (Force+Primal) discussion (possible spoilers)


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#1
MigoTheGIgo

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Introduction:
So, I figured i wanted to hear your thoughts on this build, the Force/Primal mage, or as i call him, the Jedi Mage (since he reminded me of my old KOTOR playthroughs; throwing people around, shooting lightning out of every orifice, being a general bad ass).
Did it on my second mage playthrough (the first one was quite the mess; abilities everywhere since i was quite clueless :P ), and figured those two schools looked like the better ones.

Playthrough was on normal, will get going on Hardcore next.

Basically:

Primal: All abilities.

Force: All except for Telekinetic Blast upgrade and Makers Fury.

Attributes: Healthy mix of Magic and Willpower, starting to stack consitution towards the end for durability.
Why?

Primal has some sweet damage in there. Upgraded CL on a group of staggered targets unleashes hell. Tempest takes care of large groups of weak enemies, or deals decent damage over time to a large group of regular ones. Stonefist is good for interrupting casters, getting melee off the mage, or dealing decent damage to a disoriented target.
Petrify is possibly one of the most important spells here, since it works on almost all targets. Disable a mage, boss or Assassin AND be able to burn them down fast due to damage resistance reduc.
And not to forget Rock Armor. I stacked Armor runes in my armor rune slots, and ended up with 70 % damage reduc (normals; 60 % lieutenants, 50 % boss), which, combined with a few att points in constitution made Hawke quite durable.

Force has some of the most tasty spells in game. Makers fury is so-so, basically a bit of damage with a knockdown effect. Good enough for groups of enemies, and buys you some mitigation through control.
Telekinetic Burst is good for getting melee off your soft targets. In combination with Mind Blast and all the other control in here, my Mage Hawke barely had enemies on him, even when I threw caution to the wind.
And then there is of course Gravitic Ring and Pull of the Abyss.
Pull of the Abyss is beautiful for positioning your foes where you want them. Pull in everything you face, rush in with Fenris, AOE Staggers with warrior Sunder and/or rogue, chainlighting --> Dead stuff. If not, then the incoming Whirlwind and Scythe will make it so.
Ever more powerful is the Gravitic ring. Enemies caught dead in the center (which is even easier with PotA) are immobilized for the duration, and their attack speed comes to a crawl as well. Along with Petrify i was actually able to win the Arishok Duel without too much hassle by kiting, and nuking when he was in GR or Petrify.

Remaining points:
I am still unsure on what to do with the remaining points. I ended up with points in heal (upgraded), Mind Blast (not upgraded), Arcane/Elemental shield (for even more durability)  and Dispel (which i found quite lovely when you get used to it, and VERY powerful on certain encounters). That being said, these last points I would say are quite up for debate. I just picked for utility and survival.

Gear I used the Eye of the Storm staff (15 % electrical damage, 5 % knockback) with a 10 % damage rune for some lovely extra  damage on my CL and Tempest.
Champions armor (ofc) with Armor runes, Ring of the Ferryman (+2 magic, 9 mana/sta regen, 24% fire and electricity damage, stun immunity) as the key pieces for this playthrough. I dont recall finding anything better.

General strategy:
Against last blobs of enemies, i use a combo of GR and PotA, followed by tempest-->Warrior/rogue stagger-->Chain Lightining to devastate anything standing. Picked off stragglers with Makers fury and the rest of my spells/team mates.
Tough Stuff:
High Dragon, Arishok (non duel), Rock Wraith (though i barely had any spells at this time):
Petrify when possible (wasnt on High Dragon>_>) to reduce incoming damage. Same with Gravitic Ring (even when you have your tank taking the big guy. The reduction in attack speed is quite neat). If an enemy is susceptible to both, i ran them on Cool down. Used Fenris/Rogue(Varric/isabela) with CL/Tempest to take care of smaller adds. and then dealt damage to the main enemy when those were all dead.

Companions:
I ran with either aveline and/or Fenris (semi tank build for when i didnt bring Aveline), a rogue (typically Varric) and a free spot. Aveline, Fenris, Varric seemed the best combination, but I found i could switch out one of the warriors without too much hassle and bring along another companion when i felt like it or when i did their specific quests.
Anders was rather useless. I have so much control that I didnt need a dedicated healer, potions did the trick. Though my party was pretty much inkillable when i ran with him, it did seem to loose a lot of the power it had with other companions.
Merril i built with a combination of Primal spells and Dalish Pariah spells. Double petrify, double CL, double upgraded temptest made short work of anything.
Isabela i switched for Varric when need be. But in all honesty, it just came down to preference. I made sure they both had the ability to aoe Disorient and Stagger.
Since i only just bought Sabastian, i would imagine that he could fill in as well for Isabela/Varric. Will try it on hardcore when i get to that.

What are your thoughts on this build? And, where would you suggest putting those last Ability points? Suggestions for gear? Tactics? Please fire away ^^

Regards;
M

#2
WJC3688

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It looks like a pretty cool build and I may be giving it a try on my second run. I can't really give any suggestions to improve it because I haven't finished the game yet, pretty much haven't used mages at all, and certainly haven't used the two talent trees you're specializing in.

#3
Slugwood

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This sounds just like what I did.

Unfortunately I can't help you with points allocation since I had a respec glitch that gave me an extra 15 or so spell points (as well as stacked attribute points). Soooooooo I had full Force Mage, Primal, Spirit Healer as well as mostly-filled Arcane and upgraded Heal and Death Syphon.

I will say that I found the upgrade to Mind Blast highly useful (more than Heal) and Crushing Prison moderately useful, especially if there was a pesky mob somewhere I didn't want to focus on at the moment--throw it and forget it.

#4
Tomomi

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I just went through Act 1 Deep Road with primarily Force Mage spells. I was at lvl 13-15 with tons of extra abilities due to Maker's Sigh potion glitch. It was on Hard/Nightmare mode. Nightmare mode was ridiculously stupid. A normal mob could chain stun/knock anyone to death, so the spider boss fight I really had to switch to Hard. Since I wanted Carver to be a Warden, so I had no choice but to bring Carver and Anders along, with Varric locked in, there was no room for Aveline. It was extremely ... hard. Carver, with 2H weapon tank spec gets knocked around non stop on Nightmare mode.

Anyway, I wanted to say Force Mage tree was quite a nightmare against Deep Road. I won't comment on normal mode because I can basically win with anything in normal mode. I found out that Force Mage spells, either push out like Telekinetic Burst, or pull in like Pull of the Abyss, somehow does not affect the rock golems and the shades much. I just did not see them getting pushed or pulled like it would with normal Darkspawn mobs. I am not sure it if I did something wrong, but Force Mage tree was barely used. My mage has about 41 points in Magic, but somehow it did not show a significant wow factor.

Regarding those shade/abomination, upgraded Mind Blast work very well on them. Paralysis Gryph works too, but needs to cast earlier in advance, since the cast time is longer, once any of those mobs get to your character, you get permanently knocked down non stop, have much better chance to survive spamming run click. Oh, the spam click because ... each time a character get knocked off, the action queue is reset (not sure bug or intended). So you would have to spam your way to freedom. Which made the Rock Wraith battle hard when you had to spam click all 4 characters running 4 different directions when the boss used something like Pull of the Abyss to pull you in.

#5
MigoTheGIgo

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Hmm, I should perhaps have clarified... Primal tree is the main priority, at least it was on my normal playthrough. I *think* that would make it easier :P

Anyway, gonna start my hard playthrough now. I'll try to dot down my thoughts in the post as well with regards to the build.

And thanks for the input so far guys :)

#6
Mark B

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Sounds interesting I may give it a go for my mage playthrough - but I'm concerned about the respec glitch if I change my mind.

Quick question though; have you tried this with blood mage spec?
Merril with a magic/con build on my warrior playthrough was unkillable towards the end - about 400hp with 3 sustainables run from mana before activating blood magic, 22 hp regen, steals health from close enemies and 7xhp for mana.
So was wondering if you could go the same way (altough the health regen is impossible for the PC).

#7
MigoTheGIgo

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(altough the health regen is impossible for the PC).


What do you mean?

Hmm, I suppose it doable. It is a fair few points to invest though, and, at least on first playthrough, i wanted to buff up Primal and Force first.

I think I will put the Imp. Blood magic gear i stumble upon in storage and try it with a makers sigh respec soon-ish. Just gonna save before i pop the potion, dont want that bug people talk about.

That being said, so far i have gone for:

Ability Points:
1: Chain Lightning.
2: Stonefist
3: Petrify
4: Rock Armor

Attributes: (Magic/Will/Constitution)
20/16/13 (Bonus points from the Promotion Tomes). 

So far seems to be fine, even though Petrify has failed to land twice on Assassins. Not sure if its because of poor luck/low +attack, or if they are inherently immune/resistant. More testing to follow.

UPDATE: Finished Birthright without any hassle (of course). Petrify at least works on enemy mages, so alone that part should make it very much worthwhile taking.

Modifié par MigoTheGIgo, 19 mars 2011 - 12:29 .


#8
Mark B

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MigoTheGIgo wrote...

(altough the health regen is impossible for the PC).


What do you mean?


With maxed out friendship Merril gets an almighty +20 health regen, so it's unavailable to the player.
The 7xhp for mana is overkill so you could replace some of the blood magic stuff with health regen items to get close.

EDIT: The bonus with going this way for Merril (apart from the above) is you only "need" to develop 2 attributes; magic and constitution.  As sustainables cost a percentage of mana rather than a fixed amount, having 100 or 300 has no impact on your ability to run them, and if activated before the blood magic they will run from the mana you will not be needing later.

Modifié par Mark B, 19 mars 2011 - 12:34 .


#9
Da3mon

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I went mostly this way with my character, altough I got more spirit stuff than primal. Having pull of the abyss to pull enemies closer to a target who has Virulent Walking Bomb on him, is just fun :)

#10
Gwinever

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doing the same atm on my mage nightmare playthrough though picked up force at lvl 14 focussing on spirit healer first as i didn't realy liked anders.

didn't pick up tempest, rock armor and the boost skill for all the skills from the primal tree yet though might still pick those up soon. also picked up winters grasp and cone off cold with their upgrades aswell for more CC and dmg.

using aveline, fenris and varric as my solid party 
basic stratagy, use pull off the abyss to group them together, use shield bash for mass stagger, chain lightning takes the majority out. use winters grasp on the survivers to make them brittle and have fenris shatter them with mighty blow.
i use cone off cold when new groups pop in right in front off me to freeze them and have fenris take aggro with scythe

#11
Knal1991

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I'm actually a bloodmage with primal skills, but due to the fact that I take it very slowly and defeat as many things as I can... I'm now level 16 and I hardly started Act 2, which probably land me somewhere around or just below lvl 25 I think.. which actually leaves some spells open for grasp.. like those from force Mage... ( if offcourse I leave the upgrades be, from some from blood mage, and some from primal and not using any upgrades in force mage...)

I also though about respeccing with makers sigh and use the point from mind blast into that tree aswell, thing is I hear that Maker's sigh is bugged and can completely mess up the character

But force mage does seem like the best decision, canning them together in one place then unleasing Tempest, Chain lightning and hermophage should do some real damage right there,

however I have watched some vids and comments claiming telekinetic burst is bugged as well...
Causing only archers and mages to be knocked away despite the indicated power...

Wonder if someone here has the same problem?

#12
MigoTheGIgo

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however I have watched some vids and comments claiming telekinetic burst is bugged as well...
Causing only archers and mages to be knocked away despite the indicated power...

Wonder if someone here has the same problem?


Did not notice it first time through, but I will check it out this playthrough.

That being said, TB is a "meh" spell imho. The other Force spells are better. It is decent to have, for the occasional knockback, but i dont really use it on a very regular basis.

#13
Irish Porkchopp

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Looks like a good build. I did something similar except I went full elemental for the fun factor (I played on normal first time through) I think fully upgraded Fist of the maker is pretty good. It doesn't do a huge amount of damage but its a great cross-class-combo against staggered enemies when chain lightening is not available. Plus it stuns many enemies.

Also death syphon/vortex improved survivability. And don't forget walking bomb- its just plain fun. Pull of the abyss->gravitic ring->walking bomb ended many fights before they began.

#14
ExcitedApathy

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Irish Porkchopp wrote...


Also death syphon/vortex improved survivability. And don't forget walking bomb- its just plain fun. Pull of the abyss->gravitic ring->walking bomb ended many fights before they began.


^ This.

#15
sge

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I am interested in knowing how your build fares on the harder difficulties. No doubt it rocks on normal. My own build is very similar, and it rocks. My biggest gripe is that on normal I don't really feel like group setup or character builds matter much at all, as pretty much any damage skill can kill any enemy. So basically you can run an all-damage group setup with your crowd control being enough to clear the battlefield.

From a tactical standpoint I doubt the build will hold on the harder difficulties, unless the "free choice" slot in companions is filled with either a healer or secondary tank if you instead go for some healing on the mage.

I love playing a mage, sure, I am not dismembering things up close having big numbers rolling acros the screen, but I do feel I am a core part of the teams succes. I am torn between this Jedi Mage and a more pure support/healing mage for the harder difficulties.

So share your experiences with a Jedi Mage on the higher difficulties everyone :-) Including your companion dependacies.

#16
MigoTheGIgo

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Had a brief hold up in my hard game, so am starting again now. So far its fine, continuing to stick to the Primal School.

With regards to needing either a healer or two tanks... I always build my 2h warriors "semi tank", ie. 2 points of strength, one point of Con. Seems to buy me a LOT of added survival. Not to mention that those 2h warriors do beastly damage, thus keeping the enemies... Well, either dead, dying, or at least off my rogues and mages ^^

I expect to have my prefered setup as mentioned in the OP. Avelina (tanky), Fenris/carver (2h dps/tank) and a rogue (Varric, or Sebastian since i just bought the DLC and want to try him out).

Ultimately, I think Mages role in DA2 is quite different from in DA:O. THeir damage, while decent, is really best served through bursty CCC. A lot of support/CC/general disruption spells seem to work best. I believe that the build I am aiming for will serve that purpose well.

All in all, I just hate playing the healer class :P If I can get by without too much hassle, i wont use a dedicated healer.

#17
Blessed Silence

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This is so funny, as I made my mage on first playthrough exactly like this!

#18
MigoTheGIgo

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Blessed Silence wrote...

This is so funny, as I made my mage on first playthrough exactly like this!


Feel free to share your thoughts on it then :P

Still also not sure of what to go for with the superflous ability points.

#19
SlamminHams

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MigoTheGIgo wrote...

Still also not sure of what to go for with the superflous ability points.


Heroic Aura with the Valiant Aura upgrade is hard to pass up.  You could either spec into Heal or Glyph of Paralysis for the prerequisite points for Valiant Aura, either of which will add party support.

I will say that I initally balked at Glyph of Paralysis (and it's upgrade), but it it so amazingly good for control on tougher/ranged enemies.  The cast time is pretty swift and there's zero travel time, so it's a near insta CC for thos "OH **** TWO SAAREBAS" moments.

Heal is always a decent option.