206 réponses à ce sujet

[count_4]

Suron wrote...

DA2 on the other hand...is relatively good as well. But it falls apart towards the end. They go too far trying to blur the lines between both sides. 99% of the mages do in fact resort to bloodmagic/demons..reinforcing Meredith...even though a LARGE portion of even the Templars show support for the Mages in that Meredith is going way too far and needs to be removed...Whom the mages turn on as well.

Then you have Ander's little stunt...again just reinforcing WHY mages are held on a leash.

To me that's what makes this story as interesting as it is. 
It portrays an authentic downward spiral of oppression and opposition, resulting in a (little too forced) terrorist attack that leads to a civil war in whole Thedas. 
And although you can't really change anything or influence what happens, it happends because you were there. And the outcome is on a far larger scale than DA:O.
The whole world has changed, the Chantry lost all their Circles...that's quite a shift for an RPG universe. And a realistic one.

[Siven80]

txgoldrush wrote...
snip

Great post and i agree.

Loved the story and the ending.

[Everwarden]

txgoldrush wrote...

7) The Ending.....it does work, yes it is a true ending, yes, it makes sense. Thats just how the games themes come together eventually. This game is the complete opposite of Origins, or any Bioware game taking the "good" path...this is no hero tale, this is a tragic one, a descent into hell, and Bioware should be commending for the guts to make a story like this. Its like "No Country For Old Men"'s ending, not many people like it, it was dark and bleak, but it works when you think about it. And it won Best Picture.

Uhg. No. The problem with the ending isn't that its tragic*, or that there isn't an obvious good path. It's that there is no end. It's a full stop mid-story. The third act is on rails, and the choo-choo smashes headlong into a brick wall and just stops moving. 

*Well, it is tragic, but for reasons in the real world.

[fthg42]

I agree completely with the OP. The writers have succeeded in crafting a dark epic story, so dark it's almost black, that made for one of the most emotionally compelling experiences I've ever had. I hope to see more storytelling of this caliber in future DA (and other Bioware) games to come.

[Everwarden]

fthg42 wrote...

I agree completely with the OP. The writers have succeeded in crafting a dark epic story, so dark it's almost black, that made for one of the most emotionally compelling experiences I've ever had. I hope to see more storytelling of this caliber in future DA (and other Bioware) games to come.

I too felt strong, strong emotion when playing the end of Dragon Age 2. It was anger at a failed game. 

[gombie]

was darker, but the characters... come on, they are all good people really, its basically chaotic vs lawful.

but none of the chars are evil, which is a shame.

and nothing in DA2 compares to the dark setting of the deep roads in DA:O. and the fact you can set werewolves to kill all the elves, then make your character lie to elves saying you was trying to help. saving the circle then turning around and annulling them all

DA:O gave options to do alot more darker stuff compared to DA2...

dont get me wrong though, DA2 story is good though, but i wouldnt say its darker, DA:O can be very dark if you want it to be.

Modifié par gombie, 19 mars 2011 - 02:35 .

[SkittlesKat96]

I don't agree 100% but I still somewhat agree, the ending was a little non-conclusive but that sort of made sense and it was very dark and straightforwardish.

I think the fact that the player gets to wonder and assume what happened to Hawke and his companions is interesting and wondering whats next is interesting.

EDIT: The game and storyline wasn't perfect though....or that great, but it still worked and left a good enough impression on me.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 19 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[thespianicism]

I agree. This story feels much more like something you'd see in a movie than anything you'd expect a fantasy RPG to tackle. It's very character driven and these characters have flaws, just like normal human beings. Even the fanatics like Meredith have a reason somewhere down the line for doing what they do. Anders, crazy-pro-mage Anders, stated at one point that, while Meredith may be doing bad things, at least she thinks she's doing them for the right reason. Power, vengeance, selfishness, idealism, and a myriad of other things warp people. In DA2, these flaws are what drives the characters and the story.

Bioware did a good job of making the world feel very... plausible. I liked the slow downfall of Hawke's personal life, even as she gained more and more power. The ending isn't hero saves the world, gets the girl, and everything is dandy. The world continues.

[Medhia Nox]

I'm sorry this is so long...

Sometimes I wonder about people who prefer dark material over the struggle of a hero trying to achieve something good. I am curious what kind of life those people lead and what genuine struggles they've had in it. The people I have encountered who enjoy "dark" material are usually the types of people who have never experienced any real tragedy in their lives. They usually lead fairly ordinary, or sometimes well off, lives without so much as a snippet of genuine "darkness". And I've found that those who have experienced darkness, but prefer it, have simply given into it - often placing the blame on others, and never seeking to escape their own failures or tragedies.

See, darkness isn't paying bills or even dealing with heartbreak. It isn't getting into a car accident, and it certainly isn't watching wars and natural disasters on the television and pretending to be all aghast at the terrible tragedy while you eat a bowl of ice cream on your Italian leather sofa in your house that's two times too large to fit the amount of people. Those are so minor as to be laughable (though some of them 'could' be major depending on severity).

I've experienced that people who lead plain lives seek adrenaline. They seek pretend dangers so that they might feel like they have achieved something greater than suburbia. They romanticize war and support someone else going off to one while they attend PTA meetings and spend way too much on their credit cards.

As someone who has experienced some darkness in the real world (but by no means the extent of the tragedy many have faced in their time) I am not so impressed with "darkness". Dragon Age 2 seems to me to be rather trite in its convictions.

Here we have a world where I orphan hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children every night I walk through the city streets of Kirkwall in a trivialized gore fest of slaughter and lawlessness. I steal from people's homes and businesses in contrived "treasure finding" chests that are placed around the game world.

I feel that this story catered perhaps to a group of people that have not faced "darkness" in their past (this is opinion - not fact). And for them, it might be new and bold. For myself - it was predictable and hollow. Hawke only betters himself in material gain - he watches people he knows to be uncouth - continue down their paths of madness and does nothing. That is the worst thing. Hawke is a bystander. He's the city goer who walks past an alley while a woman is being assaulted and says: "Not my business." He can achieve nothing in this game - he cannot stop the evil happening around him - and while that is perhaps a valuable lesson to some, I will tell you now, learning it in real life is far more acute.

I actually agree with the mindset of the Arishok more than anyone else in the game. Kirkwall isn't dark, it isn't edgy, it's pathetic. It's full of pointless, useless people who do nothing to make their world better. It's full of "scum and villainy" and sure - movies like "Pirates of the Caribbean" (love them all btw) make them look romantic - but "scum and villainy" aren't cool to me. They aren't bold. Idolizing them is everything that's wrong with modern culture (perhaps all cultures through history).

I don't mind a down to earth story. I've said before - I could roleplay a game centered around trying to grow a good crop before winter. But Bioware has admitted (at least with the mother scenario) that they deprived you of being a hero in this game so that they can feed you their "darkness". (The mother scenario is their admission - they removed the chance to save her.)

I've had an abusive mother, an alcoholic father, dealt with coming out in a family that despises homosexuality, and recovered from total mental collapse by taking the long road. I've never resorted to drugs to solve my problems (no, not a single sip of alcohol), never once resorted to blaming others for my life (after childhood ended), and still dealt with all the everyday things that we all must contend with. And I state plainly that my life is blessed compared to some who experience even greater darkness.

You didn't need to know any of that - but there's no shame in the telling. No - I did not find Dragon Age's darkness to be bold - nor fresh. I don't romanticize Ander's terrorism - and there is enough terrorism in the real world that I don't need a game to trivialize it (and I feel it did with it's over the top attitude toward it). I don't think Isabela's cowardice is daring - I don't admire cowards at all, in fact, I'm rather repulsed by them. Carver is a man who never finds his own way - I've seen plenty of them in real life, and I don't aspire to surround myself with more.

A "Heroes Journey" is abstract. The creatures you fight are "concepts" not living beings - you kill far fewer people in something like Origins - and when you do, when given the option I took the decisions very seriously. ((You are not given options for situations like Howe as far as I know)). I spared Loghain, and scorned Alistair for his weakness to not have mercy - I was perhaps pleased to see him devolve into a weak ineffectual drunkard.

At any rate - I've rambled enough, and said my piece on the topic. I believe the darkness of Dragon Age is edgy and bold only if the darkness that can be in the world is ignored.

[AllThatJazz]

Agree with OP. Fantastic story, populated with layered and interesting characters, and really no-one who could straight up be called a hero or a villain, it very much depends on perspective. Even my lovely and noble and well-meaning Hawke ended up as more of an accidental villain than a Champion. The themes of family, loss, failure and sacrifice were much more intriguing to me than 'Big Monster. Kill It.' And the ending left me gobsmacked. I mean, it was great in Origins to be able to say 'Squee! I'm Queen!', but an ending that leaves me saying 'what the f***k have I done?' is just as engaging to me.

[Wintermist]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry this is so long...

[snip]

I quite agree with you there.

[0x30A88]

It is indeed dark and have a ****load of potential. The lack of choises is because Bioware didn't have time to fully flesh out this story. This game could have been more than just good, given another one or two years. We all know Bioware's potential -- and we all know how rushing hurts a game.

Though, many situations are inevitable -- example: the chantry blowing up --, but still, it would have been nicer if could end this in a peaceful way -- i.e. ditching Meredith and have a sensible templar take her place. Though, having to choose between two evils in the end was an interesting change of pace, but having a possibility to solve this peacefully would have been way better.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 19 mars 2011 - 03:17 .

[Rm80]

Gisle Aune wrote...

It is indeed dark and have a ****load of potential. The lack of choises is because Bioware didn't have time to fully flesh out this story. This game could have been more than just good, given another one or two years. We all know Bioware's potential -- and we all know how rushing hurts a game.

Though, many situations are inevitable -- example: the chantry blowing up --, but still, it would have been nicer if could end this in a peaceful way -- i.e. ditching Meredith and have a sensible templar take her place. Though, having to choose between two evils in the end was an interesting change of pace, but having a possibility to solve this peacefully would have been way better.

well I agree most of the ending are inevitable, the bad ones will die, hawke will survive (and most of the companions), chantry will be blown to pieces, mages will riot all over Thedas and so on....

I hope the reason for this is so there can actually be a continuation to DA2 unlike DAO.

All the different outcomes in DAO made it impossible to make a real sequel to DAO, the only thing that is true is that the archdemon dies. 

That is what I hope and believe anyway

[AllThatJazz]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry this is so long...

Sometimes I wonder about people who prefer dark material over the struggle of a hero trying to achieve something good. I am curious what kind of life those people lead and what genuine struggles they've had in it. The people I have encountered who enjoy "dark" material are usually the types of people who have never experienced any real tragedy in their lives. They usually lead fairly ordinary, or sometimes well off, lives without so much as a snippet of genuine "darkness". And I've found that those who have experienced darkness, but prefer it, have simply given into it - often placing the blame on others, and never seeking to escape their own failures or tragedies.

See, darkness isn't paying bills or even dealing with heartbreak. It isn't getting into a car accident, and it certainly isn't watching wars and natural disasters on the television and pretending to be all aghast at the terrible tragedy while you eat a bowl of ice cream on your Italian leather sofa in your house that's two times too large to fit the amount of people. Those are so minor as to be laughable (though some of them 'could' be major depending on severity).

I've experienced that people who lead plain lives seek adrenaline. They seek pretend dangers so that they might feel like they have achieved something greater than suburbia. They romanticize war and support someone else going off to one while they attend PTA meetings and spend way too much on their credit cards.

As someone who has experienced some darkness in the real world (but by no means the extent of the tragedy many have faced in their time) I am not so impressed with "darkness". Dragon Age 2 seems to me to be rather trite in its convictions.

Here we have a world where I orphan hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children every night I walk through the city streets of Kirkwall in a trivialized gore fest of slaughter and lawlessness. I steal from people's homes and businesses in contrived "treasure finding" chests that are placed around the game world.

I feel that this story catered perhaps to a group of people that have not faced "darkness" in their past (this is opinion - not fact). And for them, it might be new and bold. For myself - it was predictable and hollow. Hawke only betters himself in material gain - he watches people he knows to be uncouth - continue down their paths of madness and does nothing. That is the worst thing. Hawke is a bystander. He's the city goer who walks past an alley while a woman is being assaulted and says: "Not my business." He can achieve nothing in this game - he cannot stop the evil happening around him - and while that is perhaps a valuable lesson to some, I will tell you now, learning it in real life is far more acute.

I actually agree with the mindset of the Arishok more than anyone else in the game. Kirkwall isn't dark, it isn't edgy, it's pathetic. It's full of pointless, useless people who do nothing to make their world better. It's full of "scum and villainy" and sure - movies like "Pirates of the Caribbean" (love them all btw) make them look romantic - but "scum and villainy" aren't cool to me. They aren't bold. Idolizing them is everything that's wrong with modern culture (perhaps all cultures through history).

I don't mind a down to earth story. I've said before - I could roleplay a game centered around trying to grow a good crop before winter. But Bioware has admitted (at least with the mother scenario) that they deprived you of being a hero in this game so that they can feed you their "darkness". (The mother scenario is their admission - they removed the chance to save her.)

I've had an abusive mother, an alcoholic father, dealt with coming out in a family that despises homosexuality, and recovered from total mental collapse by taking the long road. I've never resorted to drugs to solve my problems (no, not a single sip of alcohol), never once resorted to blaming others for my life (after childhood ended), and still dealt with all the everyday things that we all must contend with. And I state plainly that my life is blessed compared to some who experience even greater darkness.

You didn't need to know any of that - but there's no shame in the telling. No - I did not find Dragon Age's darkness to be bold - nor fresh. I don't romanticize Ander's terrorism - and there is enough terrorism in the real world that I don't need a game to trivialize it (and I feel it did with it's over the top attitude toward it). I don't think Isabela's cowardice is daring - I don't admire cowards at all, in fact, I'm rather repulsed by them. Carver is a man who never finds his own way - I've seen plenty of them in real life, and I don't aspire to surround myself with more.

A "Heroes Journey" is abstract. The creatures you fight are "concepts" not living beings - you kill far fewer people in something like Origins - and when you do, when given the option I took the decisions very seriously. ((You are not given options for situations like Howe as far as I know)). I spared Loghain, and scorned Alistair for his weakness to not have mercy - I was perhaps pleased to see him devolve into a weak ineffectual drunkard.

At any rate - I've rambled enough, and said my piece on the topic. I believe the darkness of Dragon Age is edgy and bold only if the darkness that can be in the world is ignored.

Without wanting to seem terribly insensitive, I have to say this.  It isn't very fair to assume that those who enjoy darker narratives have led 'tragedy-free' lives. As appalling as bits of your life seem to have been (for which you have my profound sympathy for whatever that's worth), I've had a fair few horrific episodes in my life as well; and yet I still like a story with an 'edge'.  I'm capable of enjoying a variety of stories, in fact, both 'dark' and 'light'.  Yes, there is something to be said for heroic escapism; but I actually appreciate it when storytellers can put elements of both darkness and light into a narrative. And while DA2 was grimmer than Origins, it wasn't without its bright spots. Tbh, I don't associate videogames with real darkness or 'meaning' at all, whatever their subject matter, because at the end of the day they aren't real. I can dissociate fact from fiction quite easily. I get why the relative of someone who died in a bomb explosion might feel very upset by the Anders storyline, but is that a reason not to tell stories like this?

I have found that some personal experiences of mine have helped me 'connect' both with Hawke and before her with The Warden, but then I guess that's what personal experiences do, isn't it? They help you connect to different scenarios and situations. We all respond differently to tragedy, I guess, just like we all enjoy different types of games/stories etc.

[Brockololly]

txgoldrush wrote...
Its like "No Country For Old Men"'s ending, not many people like it, it was dark and bleak, but it works when you think about it. And it won Best Picture.

Eh....I wouldn't quite compare the works of Cormac McCarthy and the Coen Brothers to BioWare. Thats a stretch.


But I'd agree DA2 is maybe BioWare's "darkest" story. But the whole tragedy card often runs straight in the face of granting the player any meaningful choice. So everything you do doesn't really matter. And thats one area where I think DA2 fails miserably- its fine to have tragedy but have it make sense and maintain at least the illusion of choice.

[highcastle]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry this is so long...

Sometimes I wonder about people who prefer dark material over the struggle of a hero trying to achieve something good. I am curious what kind of life those people lead and what genuine struggles they've had in it. The people I have encountered who enjoy "dark" material are usually the types of people who have never experienced any real tragedy in their lives. They usually lead fairly ordinary, or sometimes well off, lives without so much as a snippet of genuine "darkness". And I've found that those who have experienced darkness, but prefer it, have simply given into it - often placing the blame on others, and never seeking to escape their own failures or tragedies.

This is the difference between fiction and reality. It's also a matter of taste. I'm not going to go into my personal life, but suffice it to say I've seen and experienced some pretty dark stuff over my life. I don't watch or read material that explicitly relates to those themes. It's all shades of uncomfortable. But DA2 is a fantasy game. It's a great medium for invoking the dark stuff, as we can distance it from our own personal tragedies.

As someone who has experienced some darkness in the real world (but by no means the extent of the tragedy many have faced in their time) I am not so impressed with "darkness". Dragon Age 2 seems to me to be rather trite in its convictions.

Here we have a world where I orphan hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children every night I walk through the city streets of Kirkwall in a trivialized gore fest of slaughter and lawlessness. I steal from people's homes and businesses in contrived "treasure finding" chests that are placed around the game world.

This is the separation of gameplay versus story. Stealing everything that isn't nailed down, fighting in random encounters, those are RPG staples, ways to gain items and XP. I tend not to think one way or another about their inclusion. It's the main story and the dialogue where I focus most of my attention. In these respects, I don't see them as trite.

DA2 is fundamentally about a war between security and freedom. Neither side is purely right, neither side is purely wrong. On one hand, you have the templars trying to protect the citizens and the mages themselves from their darkest impulses and potential. They're also using some pretty horrible means to accomplish that aim. On the other hand, there are plenty of legitimately threatening mages out there, and it's not easy to control them. So what do you do? That's the question of the story, and if you think it's easy to answer, I don't believe you've fully considered all angles.

I feel that this story catered perhaps to a group of people that have not faced "darkness" in their past (this is opinion - not fact). And for them, it might be new and bold. For myself - it was predictable and hollow. Hawke only betters himself in material gain - he watches people he knows to be uncouth - continue down their paths of madness and does nothing. That is the worst thing. Hawke is a bystander. He's the city goer who walks past an alley while a woman is being assaulted and says: "Not my business." He can achieve nothing in this game - he cannot stop the evil happening around him - and while that is perhaps a valuable lesson to some, I will tell you now, learning it in real life is far more acute.

I don't think this story was new for anyone. It plays heavily on the themes we currently face in the real world. Security versus freedom has been a hot topic in the media since 9/11. DA2 at least moves the setting to a fantasy world and imbues both sides with flaws and virtues. It also doesn't hand you the right answer on a silver platter. It's trying to get the player to come up with the answer for themselves. This is a big question with a lot of variables. It would've been easy to make it too political or too heavy-handed, but it doesn't. By encouraging the player to think for themselves, it actually comes across as quite subtle.

As for Hawke being a bystander...yes, in some respects he is. And I'm alright with this. Most games have you painted as a hero who can fix anything just by looking at it. Hawke struggles. Sometimes he succeeds, sometimes he fails. That makes the successes matter so much more (defeating the Arishok in single combat was a crowning moment of triumph in my game, for instance).

This is also a role playing game. If Hawke experienced no pesonal growth in your game, that's not a fault of the developers. That's how you played him. In my game, Hawke was a wise-cracking smart ass until he lost his mother and the city of Kirkwall dumped its security on his shoulders. Then he sobered and struggled with the weight of that responsibility.

Regarding what he achieves...I don't think his story is fully over yet. I could be wrong. The devs only know the answer to that. But yes, he ends with something of a failure right now. And I get that it's uncomfortable and awkward and it doesn't make you feel like a hero, but it's not supposed to. In a story without pure good guys and bad guys, it would be trite to make it end with an overwhelming success. Again, this is a game about making difficult decisions and never being sure which move is right or not. It's supposed to make you think, not feel loike an invincible hero. There are other games out there if you want that.

I actually agree with the mindset of the Arishok more than anyone else in the game. Kirkwall isn't dark, it isn't edgy, it's pathetic. It's full of pointless, useless people who do nothing to make their world better. It's full of "scum and villainy" and sure - movies like "Pirates of the Caribbean" (love them all btw) make them look romantic - but "scum and villainy" aren't cool to me. They aren't bold. Idolizing them is everything that's wrong with modern culture (perhaps all cultures through history).

Not sure which Kirkwall you're seeing here. I'm looking at a city where people are just struggling to get by. It's not all scum and villainy. The Wayward Son quest gives us a mother trying desperately to protect her children. In Act 3, one of the blood mages we're sent to find also tried to protect the orphans in Darktown. Unfortunately, she lost herself to the demons.

I don't know how any of it's romanticized, though. It's all played pretty much for tragedy in DA2. The point of Kirkwall is to show the extremes. The people in Hightown aren't really aware of the depravity going on in Darktown. Or maybe they are, but they just don't care. The nobles don't really come off all that well in this game, though. Mostly they look the other way, which helps contribute to the war later on.

As for the Arishok, I think he's a compelling character, sure. But he has a fairly disturbing philosophy. Everyone should just do what the authority tells them is right for them and never reach that conclusion for themselves? Mages should have their mouths sewn shut and be collared and chained on account of how they were born? Again, he's not a fully good or evil character. He's a product of his culture, and I don't know if we should agree with the Qun. But the game doesn't tell us if the Qun's right or wrong, so you can absolutely make your own decision. I for one am not comfortable with the Arishok, though.

No - I did not find Dragon Age's darkness to be bold - nor fresh. I don't romanticize Ander's terrorism - and there is enough terrorism in the real world that I don't need a game to trivialize it (and I feel it did with it's over the top attitude toward it). I don't think Isabela's cowardice is daring - I don't admire cowards at all, in fact, I'm rather repulsed by them. Carver is a man who never finds his own way - I've seen plenty of them in real life, and I don't aspire to surround myself with more.

Terrorism is a hot word right now because of 9/11 and other events. Yet it isn't the end-all word on the subject. History is littered with terrorist acts, and how they're painted depends on which side comes out the victor. DA2 is also a fantasy game, and it takes pains to portray both the mages and templars with strengths and weaknesses. I don't believe it's goal is to trivialize an act of terrorism here, I think it's goal is to make us think why it happened. What did we do? What didn't we do? Could we have stopped it? I don't think we could have. I've spoken with you about Anders in another thread, so I'll leave off him here.

As for Isabela, she can overcome her cowardice. It takes a real hero to do the right thing even when they're scared. If there's no drama to the decision, then it's not really heroic. But when Isabela comes back, when she places the lives of others over her own, she's a hero. Carver absolutely comes to terms with himself if he joins the Gray Wardens. I'll admit, his personal growth is a bit less if he joins the Templars. But as a Warden, he learns his own strength and he stops resenting his brother. It takes time, but he gets there. Growth. Always a good thing.

A "Heroes Journey" is abstract. The creatures you fight are "concepts" not living beings - you kill far fewer people in something like Origins - and when you do, when given the option I took the decisions very seriously. ((You are not given options for situations like Howe as far as I know)). I spared Loghain, and scorned Alistair for his weakness to not have mercy - I was perhaps pleased to see him devolve into a weak ineffectual drunkard.

At any rate - I've rambled enough, and said my piece on the topic. I believe the darkness of Dragon Age is edgy and bold only if the darkness that can be in the world is ignored.

I have to disagree with you here. You absolutely kill living beings in Origins. This is fantasy. Darkspawn might not exist here, but they do in Thedas. Most people are more comfortable slaughtering them, though, because they're inhuman and seemingly evil. Then Awakening comes along and tries to show us another angle on that. And most people hated it. Just like it seems most people didn't like the killing of mages and/or templars in DA2. Why? Because it's not pretty. It's not easy to accept. Again, that's the point.

I don't see DA2 as edgy and bold. I see it as thought-provoking. It asks a question and then it purposefully withholds the answers in order to make the player think. And you might not be comfortable with the answer you give or the choices you have to make. I like it, though. I think it's done well. It's not heavy-handed, it's not preachy, and it's not over the top. 

But I have a feeling we'll just have to disagree on this one, as I don't think I'll be changing your mind anytime soon. I just hope you recognize not all who like the darkness in DA2 are immature or inexperienced in the ways of the world. Everyone has different tastes, after all.

[AllThatJazz]

@ Highcastle. Thought-provoking. That's a good term for it. x

[Durang]

I really liked it until Act III. I wasn't really happy that I couldn't side with Thrask and was completely shocked that almost every single mage you come across turns out to be a blood mage...

[blacqout]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry this is so long...

Sometimes I wonder about people who prefer dark material over the struggle of a hero trying to achieve something good. I am curious what kind of life those people lead and what genuine struggles they've had in it. The people I have encountered who enjoy "dark" material are usually the types of people who have never experienced any real tragedy in their lives. They usually lead fairly ordinary, or sometimes well off, lives without so much as a snippet of genuine "darkness". And I've found that those who have experienced darkness, but prefer it, have simply given into it - often placing the blame on others, and never seeking to escape their own failures or tragedies. 

I fought in the 2008 South Ossetia War.

I don't necessarily prefer "dark" material over a more traditional hero story, but i think that BioWare pulled it off pretty well in DAII. It was something different and is to be commended.

[AllThatJazz]

Durang wrote...

I really liked it until Act III. I wasn't really happy that I couldn't side with Thrask and was completely shocked that almost every single mage you come across turns out to be a blood mage...

See I liked this, sort of. Just because you decide to ally with a particular group of people it doesn't mean that all of these people are worthy of your support. So Orsino becomes an abomination even if you side with the mages and yes a bunch of them are blood mages; but then Meredith is a crazy lyrium-possessed megalomaniac when you side with the Templars, and we already know that a fair few Templars are commit terrible acts on innocent mages. It just reinforces the idea that the real heroes here are few and far between. 

[Lee337]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Without wanting to seem terribly insensitive, I have to say this.  It isn't very fair to assume that those who enjoy darker narratives have led 'tragedy-free' lives. As appalling as bits of your life seem to have been (for which you have my profound sympathy for whatever that's worth), I've had a fair few horrific episodes in my life as well; and yet I still like a story with an 'edge'.  I'm capable of enjoying a variety of stories, in fact, both 'dark' and 'light'.  Yes, there is something to be said for heroic escapism; but I actually appreciate it when storytellers can put elements of both darkness and light into a narrative. And while DA2 was grimmer than Origins, it wasn't without its bright spots. Tbh, I don't associate videogames with real darkness or 'meaning' at all, whatever their subject matter, because at the end of the day they aren't real. I can dissociate fact from fiction quite easily. I get why the relative of someone who died in a bomb explosion might feel very upset by the Anders storyline, but is that a reason not to tell stories like this?

I have found that some personal experiences of mine have helped me 'connect' both with Hawke and before her with The Warden, but then I guess that's what personal experiences do, isn't it? They help you connect to different scenarios and situations. We all respond differently to tragedy, I guess, just like we all enjoy different types of games/stories etc.

Agreed, I've had some pretty horrid things happen but that doesn't alter what I want to see. I don't  want a Disney type world where everything works out, neither do I want tragedy for the sake of it. I prefer grittier real world stuff. DA2 seemed like it was trying to be dark for the sake of being dark, you never felt like you did anything wrong since nothing you do changes the story.  Whereas DA:O was more of the happier side, where you could always save everything.
Ideally for me, choices  should be more like the the Redcliff mission where you have the choice of killing conner to kill the demon or taking isoldes life, going to the mages circle to perform the ritual. The everything works out ok option of going to get mages help should have had concequences such as conner killing more villagers etc while you were gone.

[Medhia Nox]

@AllThatJazz, Highcastle, and blacqout - it was not a statement so much as a musing. I was curious. If I had already formed a solid opinion then I would not have posted anything at all. I was stating my thoughts on the topic, and sharing my experiences, so that they could be refuted.

- But to hear people call Anders a 'hero' and 'justified'.
- To hear people say Isabela is 'fun' and 'high spirited'

These things disturb me and are far 'darker' thoughts than anything presented in the game.

You guys actually thought the concepts presented in the game were "deep"? They actually provoked thought?

Let's take the move Se7en. I found that to be a deeply provoking and dark movie and while Jon Doe does present some very interesting arguments (for me anyway) - he's so obviously the villain (to me). I don't admire Jon Doe - I don't say he was justified.

I think it's the level of admiration some people have for the events in the story that bother me.

Anyway - it's just one opinion amongst many.

===

And on a purely materialist level - I don't play a story to get the "First Part" and then if I want to actually make a difference I have to pay another 30 or 60 dollars.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[Wissenschaft]

Funny how people assume the lack of choice in DA2 is from the game being rushed. To me, its on purpose. The big events you can not prevent but how you handle them is a big deal. Even the ending, if you side with the Templars you become Viscount, if you side with the mages you become an outlaw on the run. Thats a pretty big difference in my eyes.

I also like how you can see the difference of your actions in the quests you take on and how you solve them between each act.

A major goal of the mage/templar conflict is to give reason both to hate mages or support them. Bethany can join the circle, which can align you with the mages. On the other hand, your mother is killed by a mage and you face countless bloodmages. You can also help mages in quests as well.

Some people have already stated that all through the game they were a die hard mage supporter but after Anders actions they felt they had to side with the templars. That change in mindset is the whole point of the game. How will you react to the events out of your control. I personally believe this leads to a deeper connection with Hawke than anything the warden did in DA:O.

[Hurbster]

The middle of a trilogy must be dark and doomy, IT'S the LAW !!

However, plenty of room in the 'ending' for DLC, eh ?

[Wissenschaft]

I also dispute this notion that DA2 ends on a cliff hanger. No it doesn't. The story of how Hawke becomes one of the most important figures in history is fully told. What happens afterwards is for a differnt game.