206 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

Dragon Age 2 feels like a prologue to me.

By nature, I want to better myself and solve problems - not muse over the nature of imperfections. I'm not interested in everyone's failures - I'm interested in their triumphs.

Nobody succeeds in this game. There's no balance. It feels like the exact opposite of the Hero tale.

- Chapter 1: Life is hard, brothers can betray you. Darkness
- Chapter 2: Life is hard, friends will betray you. People are weak. Violence happens. Darkness
- Chapter 3: Life is hard, (potentially lover) friends will still betray you. People are radical and willing to do evil, violent things to achieve their goals. Darkness.

Yeah - I get it. I'm just not impressed.

====

If I were to compare Origins - I'd say that killing a child who has a demon in him can be a dark failure. It was powerful because I DIDN'T take the time to go to the mage tower - because I played it as if the problem had to be solved now. I made a dark decision - and ended up using blood magic (something I'm radically opposed to in concept) to save the child - and kill a mother. That was a failure on my Warden's part - and I enjoyed the gravity of it.

The only quest I truly enjoyed in Dragon Age 2 was Fenreyil's quest (sp?) Because you could end it in several ways.

If the only choice I have is "darkness" then I feel it is heavy handed. Because that isn't real life - if you've convinced yourself the only choice you have is an evil one, then I suggest the failure is within you, not the situation.

[Galf706]

Story had me on the edge of my seat much more than Origins. Loved the characters, some of the best banter ever. I want to make out with all the writers.

[Merced652]

I thought the story sucked, YMMV.

[Lee337]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I also dispute this notion that DA2 ends on a cliff hanger. No it doesn't. The story of how Hawke becomes one of the most important figures in history is fully told. What happens afterwards is for a differnt game.

If you don't think it's a cliffhanger, you don't know what a cliffhanger is.

[Rybciek]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm sorry this is so long... snip

Well, I think that's the whole point. The game is brilliant (to me) because it reflects the real world, flaws and all. It doesn't just give you the typical escapism game; it, like many other forms of media, takes the natural realities of the world and condenses them into something coherent, harmless and entertaining for us to wrap our heads around. Themes such as what the game contends with are confusing and emotionally trying in the real world. In a game we can view them with a bit of perspective and linearity, albeit simplistically, and gently reflect on them.

It's true that most people look to entertainment for escapism. That is, essentially, what entertainment boils down to 99% of the time. I didn't get that feeling with this game. I feel like it's given me some valuable feedback on human nature, the same as a well-written novel would, and instead of escapism I see reality.

Of course, some people do like that which is "d4rk:bandit:" because it's "cool", but IMO this game does not offer much in the way of "cool" darkness to be fawned over. The kind of "d4rkness" you are talking about is more apparent in the first game where you can commit random acts of innovative cruelty. The darkness in DA2 is more complex and grounding, I don't think I saw anything in it which was d4rk  for the sake of  d4rk.

I actually agree with the mindset of the Arishok more than anyone else in the game. Kirkwall isn't dark, it isn't edgy, it's pathetic. It's full of pointless, useless people who do nothing to make their world better. It's full of "scum and villainy" and sure - movies like "Pirates of the Caribbean" (love them all btw) make them look romantic - but "scum and villainy" aren't cool to me. They aren't bold. Idolizing them is everything that's wrong with modern culture (perhaps all cultures through history).

Exactly

I don't mind a down to earth story. I've said before - I could roleplay a game centered around trying to grow a good crop before winter. But Bioware has admitted (at least with the mother scenario) that they deprived you of being a hero in this game so that they can feed you their "darkness". (The mother scenario is their admission - they removed the chance to save her.)

But isn't that what reality is like? You just said you don't mind a down to earth story. Obviously no ones mother is going to be decapitated so their head can be used to resurrect another woman through an assembly of various limbs at the whim of a blood mage; it's an absurd scenario that will never happen. But it's not important, the important thing is that she is dead and Hawke could do nothing. He even says afterwards (if chosen) that it doesn't matter how or why she died. In this you might see an unnecessary attempt at being d4rk and edgy. I don't. I see an attempt to be realistic and grounding. It is a very common and real situation that the majority of people find themselves in at one point.

The problem is that a hero's quest has no value beyond entertainment. Yes, it is immensely entertaining, but what can you learn? Lessons like "never give up, good always triumphs over evil, love conquers all" are all very nice ideals, but we all know it's BS and that's exactly why we love it. I've always been eager to see the day when gaming would become a mix of quality entertainment and education. I saw this somewhat in the historical aspects of Assassin Creed 2, and I was impressed, but it's not like I had interest in those particular Italian cities so it was lost on me. The effort put into the game to educate made me see that it's finally beginning, though. I feel that with Dragon Age 2, they went into depth about things I couldn't even anticipate in a game; humanity, politics, emotional distress, oppression, justice, and god knows what else in the whole of the game and side quests. I like stuff about philosophy and human nature, so DA2 is a goldmine to me. I'm not saying it's comparable to Marx or Nietsche but it's damned impressive for what I expected to be a hero's quest escapism game.

Your point about people being into stuff that's "d4rk" and "cool" is a valid one though. I don't think it's a central cultural problem but it is a problem. The unfortunate fact is that human society is based around aggression, from top to bottom. There's nowhere you can look where there exist two people and not see some semblance of aggression. I share your views, really. I think romanticizing stuff that is in reality quite horrible is a terribly disrespectful and ignorant thing to do. I do not play the vast number of war games that exist in gaming because I find them disrespectful in how they romanticize wars. My friends call me a prude but there it is. I think that your criticism is not justified for this game, however, simply because the game tries as hard as possible not to romanticize. As someone who openly despises sentimentality, nostalgia and especially romanticisism, I appreciate this greatly.

Urgh, this is long. Basically, I respect what you're saying and think it has validity, but for this particular game it's a bit harsh to apply since I think at the very least it tries to be real, and in my own opinion it does succeed. I think it's something best said about other forms of media entertainment.

EDIT: Well I typed a lot of clumsy paragraphs for nothing; highcastle pretty much covers it.

Modifié par Rybciek, 19 mars 2011 - 04:56 .

[mopotter]

Galf706 wrote...

Story had me on the edge of my seat much more than Origins. Loved the characters, some of the best banter ever. I want to make out with all the writers.

I thought they did a great job with the characters and the banter, though I would have liked more of the DA:O taling to your group in town to go along with what they had.  I think they always do a great job with the characters.  Well, I don't want to make out with the writers, my husband would disaprove, but a "great job" would certainly be something I'd tell them.

That being said, it's not a game I'll be playing for years becuase I don't like the endings, same problem I had with DA:O.  

It's a good game, but too depressing for me to want to replay after I've tried the different options once.  I know a lot of people do enjoy this kind of story so for me, after ME3 (which I'll be getting becuase it's the end of a series)  I'll just wait till future games are out and see what people I trust say about it.  I can't pre-order a game I may not enjoy but I'm sure they will have plenty of pre-orders from people who do like the current style.  

And eventually they will make a game with different ending choices, sad ones, and uplifting ones where the Herro wins/loved one survives and the world is a wonderful place for a time.   

Modifié par mopotter, 19 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Rybciek -

It's not that it depicts bad things. To me if feels like a kid who just got permission to watch horror movies so now all he's going to do for a while is watch horror movies. There's no balance - there's no good to balance out the bad. If you can scrape some out of the game to make you happy - then it's a quality game for you - I could not.

I am not against truly grim material. I am not against discussions about rape, incest, abuse, murder, drug use, violence, genocide, whatever. BUT - I feel that this game does not treat them with the reverence of a person who has been through any of these situations (and thankfully I have not been through several.)

The Hero's Quest is about betterment, about overcoming your failures - not celebrating iniquity. It's about striving to overcome those dark things that threaten to destroy you. I think it has amazing value and applying it to my life has worked wonders. (No, I'm not a Warden fighting a dragon with chicken pocks)

Anyway - I've said my piece on the topic. Anything else is a dead horse.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 mars 2011 - 05:00 .

[Chou Monster]

Well, I can honestly say that I'm one of the people who appreciated the story right away...and the more I play DA2, the more I love DA2! It's not a question of 'this is better' or 'this is worse'. It's just a different game, a different perspective.

If the change between DAO and DA2 was so vast in gameplay, I'm actually really excited for what comes next, to see what is done to marry game styles together. The shift in narration/prose/character interactions was vast. I think DA3 is going to take everything that was learned from DAO and DA2...and make something that will give us a 10/10!

[Tomark]

There is some good though. Aveline can provides some real grounding, either by ridiculously funny quests or just by being an awesome big sis.

Varric is just varric, and it's obvious how he manages to help pass the most bitter parts.

Merril... Well, merril is a tragedy, but we can't help but want to hug her and love those moments whne things work out.

Same with Isabella if you manage to make her grow a spine- there are some successes.

[Rybciek]

Tomark wrote...

There is some good though. Aveline can provides some real grounding, either by ridiculously funny quests or just by being an awesome big sis.

Varric is just varric, and it's obvious how he manages to help pass the most bitter parts.

Merril... Well, merril is a tragedy, but we can't help but want to hug her and love those moments whne things work out.

Same with Isabella if you manage to make her grow a spine- there are some successes.

Don't forget the Brokeback Mountain adventure with Anders....

[MCPOWill]

I was afraid that DA2 was going to feel like a prologue - and this was back in December. It turns out that I was right and wrong. I was right in the fact that DA2 was setting up a larger conflict but I was wrong in the fact that there still was a conflict, climax, and resolution only it wasn't as over arcing as the conflict that the game sets up for possible future installments but that is the topic for another thread.

[txgoldrush]

Galf706 wrote...

Story had me on the edge of my seat much more than Origins. Loved the characters, some of the best banter ever. I want to make out with all the writers.

I guess because many of the writers are women...lol

The characters are far better in DAII than they were in Origins, who were just talking codex libraries with very small personal quests, as well as them all being one or two dimesnion (well, except for Leliana, Wynne, and maybe Allister). Oghren is one of Bioware's worst characters and i cannot belive its from the same writer that wrote one of Bioware's best, Leliana.

The advantage DAII characters also have is that they play a much bigger role in the story.

[Icy Magebane]

Tomark wrote...

There is some good though. Aveline can provides some real grounding, either by ridiculously funny quests or just by being an awesome big sis.

Varric is just varric, and it's obvious how he manages to help pass the most bitter parts.

Merril... Well, merril is a tragedy, but we can't help but want to hug her and love those moments whne things work out.

Same with Isabella if you manage to make her grow a spine- there are some successes.

Not really.  I hated Merrill and would have kicked her off the team a number of times, if given the opportunity.

Edit:  On-topic:  The story was okay... I don't really feel like complaining about it right now though.  I'll just say that I prefer happy endings, and for now, I'll leave it at that.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 19 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[fathomless33]

The thing for me and this game.. I play these games to live through a story and to a certain extent write the story as I go along.

This game made me upset because you are completely ineffectual throughout the entire game. The basic main story had nothing really to do with your character, and you can do nothing to change the story period.

I appreciate the writing, and the feelings it caused, however i would rather play an interactive game as opposed to hacking and slashing through a linear story.

If i had to rank i would definitely put this at the bottom under origins, all the baldurs gates tales, and ME games. It just wasnt interactive. Doesnt matter what you say, what you do, what you choose, it all ends up the same.

I wish it was more like baldurs gate 2 where there was consequences for using magic openly. The whole Bethany getting worried around templars was just complete BS. I hated being in the back seat in Anders and Issy's story.

The lack of choices and endings basically ruined any replay value whatsoever. Might as well have been a very slow and wordy version of diablo 2.

[Glorfindel709]

I completely disagree with the OP, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

*Shuffles back to Origins*


Quote:
"Why do you always have to influence everything? You don't. Too many
WRPGs make you a godly figure that determines the fate of the world by
just your choices."

Because the game was advertised as you becoming the Champion of Kirkwall, one of the most important people in all of Thedas.

Varric says in the beginning "And you need the one person who can  fix it." etc etc. The narrative set you up to be this epic influencer of the world, and then the game denied you it.

Don't try to be "We're not looking for the big bad on the dark horizon and want to show how ordinary people can become extraordinary through situation and happenstance, and then have the game intentionally try to make you think of the character as Big Awesome Godly hooah!

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 19 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[txgoldrush]

fathomless33 wrote...

The thing for me and this game.. I play these games to live through a story and to a certain extent write the story as I go along.

This game made me upset because you are completely ineffectual throughout the entire game. The basic main story had nothing really to do with your character, and you can do nothing to change the story period.

I appreciate the writing, and the feelings it caused, however i would rather play an interactive game as opposed to hacking and slashing through a linear story.

If i had to rank i would definitely put this at the bottom under origins, all the baldurs gates tales, and ME games. It just wasnt interactive. Doesnt matter what you say, what you do, what you choose, it all ends up the same.

I wish it was more like baldurs gate 2 where there was consequences for using magic openly. The whole Bethany getting worried around templars was just complete BS. I hated being in the back seat in Anders and Issy's story.

The lack of choices and endings basically ruined any replay value whatsoever. Might as well have been a very slow and wordy version of diablo 2.

Why do you always have to influence everything? You don't. Too many WRPGs make you a godly figure that determines the fate of the world by just your choices.

Why can't NPCs and companions make big decisions that impact the world as well? It fits the themes this game is trying to portray. Really, this makes you feel like you are even more part of the wrold than playing God and having everyone bow to your every decision.

[fathomless33]

Great then, i cant wait for Biowares next game, it's an RPG based on you running a coffee shop that the hero of the story comes in on thursdays.

[Lee337]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Tomark wrote...

There is some good though. Aveline can provides some real grounding, either by ridiculously funny quests or just by being an awesome big sis.

Varric is just varric, and it's obvious how he manages to help pass the most bitter parts.

Merril... Well, merril is a tragedy, but we can't help but want to hug her and love those moments whne things work out.

Same with Isabella if you manage to make her grow a spine- there are some successes.

Not really.  I hated Merrill and would have kicked her off the team a number of times, if given the opportunity.

Edit:  On-topic:  The story was okay... I don't really feel like complaining about it right now though.  I'll just say that I prefer happy endings, and for now, I'll leave it at that.

Yeah thats  one thing that was missing, the chance to get rid of people. Just like in KOTOR with the obviously evil people I wanted to kick off the ship. DA:O had the option but I never used it. Merril would have been gone if DA2 allowed it!

[Darian Tylmare]

txgoldrush wrote...


Why do you always have to influence everything? You don't. Too many WRPGs make you a godly figure that determines the fate of the world by just your choices.

Why can't NPCs and companions make big decisions that impact the world as well? It fits the themes this game is trying to portray. Really, this makes you feel like you are even more part of the wrold than playing God and having everyone bow to your every decision.

The biggest fact that establishes games from other media is interactivity. When everything is just handed to you like Heavy Rain, some players don't like it. It's the same with this game. Your Hawke is just a point of view character instead of a protagonist. Every major decision wasn'T influencable by you. So this isn't interactivity, but again a story which might have been delivered as a movie.

[txgoldrush]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I completely disagree with the OP, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

*Shuffles back to Origins*

Origins's main story is terrible (side storys are good). Stop a bunch of orcs with their dragon master from burning everything, whoopdie doo....I like it when it was Lord of The Rings. It was easily Biowares LEAST inspired story.

Loghain is one idiotic villian as well and his plan doesn't make any sense....lets take over Fereldian while the Blight is coming but destroy the ones that are the only ones that can destroy the blight. Easily no where near as good as Irenicus, Saren, or Master Li.

Not only that, it justifies Hellforge's Bioware Cliche chart, while DAII absolutely kills it.

[fathomless33]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Why do you always have to influence everything? You don't. Too many WRPGs make you a godly figure that determines the fate of the world by just your choices.

Why can't NPCs and companions make big decisions that impact the world as well? It fits the themes this game is trying to portray. Really, this makes you feel like you are even more part of the wrold than playing God and having everyone bow to your every decision.

The biggest fact that establishes games from other media is interactivity. When everything is just handed to you like Heavy Rain, some players don't like it. It's the same with this game. Your Hawke is just a point of view character instead of a protagonist. Every major decision wasn'T influencable by you. So this isn't interactivity, but again a story which might have been delivered as a movie.

well said. I purchase bioware games for the explicit reason of interacting story. This one failed in that. It gave the illusion of it, but didnt follow through. Bioware betrayed its customer base in this game.

That being said, it was fun, it was exciting, it was a cool story. I will grant them that. But feels like i wanted an biware RPG and got diablo instead. (yea its hyperbole, but you know what i mean.)

[txgoldrush]

Lee337 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Tomark wrote...

There is some good though. Aveline can provides some real grounding, either by ridiculously funny quests or just by being an awesome big sis.

Varric is just varric, and it's obvious how he manages to help pass the most bitter parts.

Merril... Well, merril is a tragedy, but we can't help but want to hug her and love those moments whne things work out.

Same with Isabella if you manage to make her grow a spine- there are some successes.

Not really.  I hated Merrill and would have kicked her off the team a number of times, if given the opportunity.

Edit:  On-topic:  The story was okay... I don't really feel like complaining about it right now though.  I'll just say that I prefer happy endings, and for now, I'll leave it at that.

Yeah thats  one thing that was missing, the chance to get rid of people. Just like in KOTOR with the obviously evil people I wanted to kick off the ship. DA:O had the option but I never used it. Merril would have been gone if DA2 allowed it!

You CAN kick Anders, Fenris, and Isabela out of the party.

[DeepConjac]

Merril was so incredible naive and stupid, absolutly everyone in the game tried to talked her out of demon summoning but she was just "nooo im doing it for my clan even if i they kick me out and lose them and all my friends". And in the end when the Keeper sacrifices himself and both Hawke and Anders tells here that she should be dead instead, she still wants to activate the mirrior, event tells me to get the h**** out of her house because i dont agree with her. And then... suddenly she shows up in my house and tells here that she loves me??

That.. made me laugh. But she is well written, or else i wouldnt care about she being naive I would realy want the option to smash the mirrior though...

Modifié par DeepConjac, 19 mars 2011 - 06:22 .

[txgoldrush]

fathomless33 wrote...

Darian Tylmare wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Why do you always have to influence everything? You don't. Too many WRPGs make you a godly figure that determines the fate of the world by just your choices.

Why can't NPCs and companions make big decisions that impact the world as well? It fits the themes this game is trying to portray. Really, this makes you feel like you are even more part of the wrold than playing God and having everyone bow to your every decision.

The biggest fact that establishes games from other media is interactivity. When everything is just handed to you like Heavy Rain, some players don't like it. It's the same with this game. Your Hawke is just a point of view character instead of a protagonist. Every major decision wasn'T influencable by you. So this isn't interactivity, but again a story which might have been delivered as a movie.

well said. I purchase bioware games for the explicit reason of interacting story. This one failed in that. It gave the illusion of it, but didnt follow through. Bioware betrayed its customer base in this game.

That being said, it was fun, it was exciting, it was a cool story. I will grant them that. But feels like i wanted an biware RPG and got diablo instead. (yea its hyperbole, but you know what i mean.)

But it is an inetractive story. Last time I checked, I could become a Viscount or an outcast. I could determine if my sister lives or dies. I could kill one of my party members for betraying me and give up another. I could side with the extremists in Chapter 2 leading to an alternate scene in the Chantry.

No, she (I am female Hawke) is not a point of view character, and in fact, really, the side you go against still respects you as Champion, especially Cullen. Hawke is a protagonist, she just doesn't move everything in the story. Too many WRPGs rely on the actions of one character while leaving other NPCs without roles to play except for antagonists.

[MCPOWill]

It's my opinion that DA2 is Bioware's best written and told narrative, but not its finest narrative.