206 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

fathomless33 wrote...

Darian Tylmare wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


Why do you always have to influence everything? You don't. Too many WRPGs make you a godly figure that determines the fate of the world by just your choices.

Why can't NPCs and companions make big decisions that impact the world as well? It fits the themes this game is trying to portray. Really, this makes you feel like you are even more part of the wrold than playing God and having everyone bow to your every decision.

The biggest fact that establishes games from other media is interactivity. When everything is just handed to you like Heavy Rain, some players don't like it. It's the same with this game. Your Hawke is just a point of view character instead of a protagonist. Every major decision wasn'T influencable by you. So this isn't interactivity, but again a story which might have been delivered as a movie.

well said. I purchase bioware games for the explicit reason of interacting story. This one failed in that. It gave the illusion of it, but didnt follow through. Bioware betrayed its customer base in this game.

That being said, it was fun, it was exciting, it was a cool story. I will grant them that. But feels like i wanted an biware RPG and got diablo instead. (yea its hyperbole, but you know what i mean.)

I think not being a typical Bioware RPG is a GOOD THING. Too many Bioware games follow the same formula over and over again. Its time for something different. See Hellforge Bioware cliche chart.

[txgoldrush]

MCPOWill wrote...

It's my opinion that DA2 is Bioware's best written and told narrative, but not its finest narrative.

That still goes to Baldur's Gate II.

[Lee337]

txgoldrush wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Tomark wrote...

There is some good though. Aveline can provides some real grounding, either by ridiculously funny quests or just by being an awesome big sis.

Varric is just varric, and it's obvious how he manages to help pass the most bitter parts.

Merril... Well, merril is a tragedy, but we can't help but want to hug her and love those moments whne things work out.

Same with Isabella if you manage to make her grow a spine- there are some successes.

Not really.  I hated Merrill and would have kicked her off the team a number of times, if given the opportunity.

Edit:  On-topic:  The story was okay... I don't really feel like complaining about it right now though.  I'll just say that I prefer happy endings, and for now, I'll leave it at that.

Yeah thats  one thing that was missing, the chance to get rid of people. Just like in KOTOR with the obviously evil people I wanted to kick off the ship. DA:O had the option but I never used it. Merril would have been gone if DA2 allowed it!

You CAN kick Anders, Fenris, and Isabela out of the party.

Really? Was trying to find a way of getting rid of Anders. One day when I'm more bored than I've ever been before I may replay just to do that!

[Glorfindel709]

TX.....

Ok, so Origins kind of has a cliched main story - you have the rising of someone from prior experience to join an order of renowned warriors to fight an ancient evil. You go on a quest to gain support for the war after the mini big bad betrays the good King and now you must fight both him and the evil menace on the horizon.

Except you know, there was so much more to it.

Redcliffe, where you can protect a village from an undead horde or leave it to burn, a young boy has been taken over by a demon and you're given the option to work with forbidden magics to sacrifice the mother, or kill the boy, or make the journey to the Mages Tower and hope that you'll be back in time so the demon won't go on a murderous rampage again.

Orzammar - Become the arbiter in a political maelstrom in order to get the soldiers you need. Discover the nuances of Dwarven society and make the decision between the seemingly morally upstanding traditionalist and the murderous but slightly charismatic son of the King. lead a suicide charge across the chasms of the earth no human or dwarf has set foot upon in centuries with the Legion of the Dead at our backs, plunging straight into the heart of the Darkspawn where they were thought to be untouchable. Ogres behind every door, the very Arch-Demon itself flying above our heads, and grisly perversions of nature spewing the flesh of their own kind back at us in unholy blasphemy to their original form. We slew the six-titted Brood Mother that spawns these monstrosities in dark and festering caves that will never know the sun, stopped an insane paragon-prophet from reinstating the sacrifices of thousands of innocents that makes Blood Magic look like it came out of a Harry Potter novel and fought alongside an ancient warrior trapped inside one of his own constructs for nigh a thousand years, and destroyed our best chance at stopping the Blight because sod it all, it was the right thing to do or embraced the dark practicality and kept the tool that would give you the edge but would forever damn your soul.

Brecilian Forest - Pride and vengence mingle as the wandering Dalish Elves deal with the attack of the cursed werewolves, leading into a forest where nothing is as it seems. Between trapped camping areas, walking trees, a force of cursed malice and anger simply wishing for a release, and an ancient spirit twisted by the howling for blood in one leaders soul.

Mages Tower -Forbidden Magicks and underlying resentments reign supreme as the Mages, led by the fraternity of the Libertarians, attempted to push for a more independent circle. Their hopeful revolution ended in a massacre, as abominations and demons surged through their home and killed mage and templar alike, their leader becoming an abomination of Pride and their magicks turning to the power of blood. The Templars are calling for the Rite of Annullment, the thing to end all life in the Tower, innocent or not, due to fear an inability. You rush in, either to rescue or to condem, and make your way through the carnage, fighting demons and blood mages at every turn. You are trapped in the fade and must look past the desires and wishes of both yourself and your friends to emerge victorious.

Loghain - Fereldens most inspired and celebrated General, turning on his King out of fear and paranoia of the Orlesian threat that he saved his country from thirty years before.  He does not believe that there is a Blight, nor that the Grey Wardens are as instrumental in its defeat as they claim. He removes the precieved orlesian plotters and the man who would hand his beloved country over to tyrants again. Time and time again, his refusal to acknowledge the Blight for what it really is is showcased, and only when we have arrived to directly threaten his power does he concede that the Blight may exist, but still does not believe in the necessity of the wardens. A true Patriot, corrupted by his paranoia and his alliegance with Rendon Howe

Archdemon - an ancient evil, one of the Old Gods of Tevinter, corrupted and twisted by the blood of the evil Darkspawn, a menace and blight upon the entire land. What they touch is poisoned, what they leave is a gruesome mockery of life. Their endless search for the one that they will corrupt, the one that will lead them, ends in triumph as Urthemiel rises and the Blight begins. Political alliances are strained, armies are slaughtered, and the Darkspawn continue their inexorable march forward after the betrayal at Ostagar. The Archdemon leads the attack on Denerim, the capital of Ferelden, and at the top of Fort Drakon it meets its doom. along with it, the possible death of the Warden who struggled to unite the peoples of Ferelden against this ancient evil and emerge victorious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh yeah, Origins is such a terrible redone story, excuse my foolish perception and enjoyment.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 19 mars 2011 - 06:33 .

[Darian Tylmare]

txgoldrush wrote...


But it is an inetractive story. Last time I checked, I could become a Viscount or an outcast. I could determine if my sister lives or dies. I could kill one of my party members for betraying me and give up another. I could side with the extremists in Chapter 2 leading to an alternate scene in the Chantry.

No, she (I am female Hawke) is not a point of view character, and in fact, really, the side you go against still respects you as Champion, especially Cullen. Hawke is a protagonist, she just doesn't move everything in the story. Too many WRPGs rely on the actions of one character while leaving other NPCs without roles to play except for antagonists.

The whole point of games is that you are the point man. Without you, nothing moves. There wouldn't be any motivation otherwise. I can say it's not bad to develop or make some minor decisions for NPCs, but regardless of what you do, the plot is always the same. This is not interactivity, it's railroading. There's no difference in what you do besides advancing the story.
And Role Playing Games let you assume of the role of a character, most often a hero or someone important.
While Hawke may be a hero and a respected person, his personal motivations don't do anything for the plot. Anders will blow up the Chantry, you have to kill both Merideth and Orsino, even if you spare the presumed lyli killer, nothing matters. The only thing you can influence is how you think your Hawke would react to it.

[txgoldrush]

Lee337 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Tomark wrote...

There is some good though. Aveline can provides some real grounding, either by ridiculously funny quests or just by being an awesome big sis.

Varric is just varric, and it's obvious how he manages to help pass the most bitter parts.

Merril... Well, merril is a tragedy, but we can't help but want to hug her and love those moments whne things work out.

Same with Isabella if you manage to make her grow a spine- there are some successes.

Not really.  I hated Merrill and would have kicked her off the team a number of times, if given the opportunity.

Edit:  On-topic:  The story was okay... I don't really feel like complaining about it right now though.  I'll just say that I prefer happy endings, and for now, I'll leave it at that.

Yeah thats  one thing that was missing, the chance to get rid of people. Just like in KOTOR with the obviously evil people I wanted to kick off the ship. DA:O had the option but I never used it. Merril would have been gone if DA2 allowed it!

You CAN kick Anders, Fenris, and Isabela out of the party.

Really? Was trying to find a way of getting rid of Anders. One day when I'm more bored than I've ever been before I may replay just to do that!

You can ask him to leave after "Dissent" in Act II

[txgoldrush]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


But it is an inetractive story. Last time I checked, I could become a Viscount or an outcast. I could determine if my sister lives or dies. I could kill one of my party members for betraying me and give up another. I could side with the extremists in Chapter 2 leading to an alternate scene in the Chantry.

No, she (I am female Hawke) is not a point of view character, and in fact, really, the side you go against still respects you as Champion, especially Cullen. Hawke is a protagonist, she just doesn't move everything in the story. Too many WRPGs rely on the actions of one character while leaving other NPCs without roles to play except for antagonists.

The whole point of games is that you are the point man. Without you, nothing moves. There wouldn't be any motivation otherwise. I can say it's not bad to develop or make some minor decisions for NPCs, but regardless of what you do, the plot is always the same. This is not interactivity, it's railroading. There's no difference in what you do besides advancing the story.
And Role Playing Games let you assume of the role of a character, most often a hero or someone important.
While Hawke may be a hero and a respected person, his personal motivations don't do anything for the plot. Anders will blow up the Chantry, you have to kill both Merideth and Orsino, even if you spare the presumed lyli killer, nothing matters. The only thing you can influence is how you think your Hawke would react to it.

All Bioware games "railroad" you, DAII is no different.

And Hawke's personal motivations do make an impact in the end as he can become the Vicount.

[Klijpope]

I tend to agree with the OP. It was a story about being swept up in larger events, of maybe trying to tread the middle line but ultimately having to come off the fence and pick a side. What you lacked in choice was made up for with influence, as the issues and events had an inevitability that no individual could undo.

This was not about good vs evil, but order vs chaos, or to put it more succinctly, politics. In the end your morality was irrelevant, as it wasn't a question about that but which version of order you endorsed, with the knowledge that every decision is a double-edged sword. Every action had consequence, and every choice had a cost. I liked the fact it was impossible to keep the moral high ground.

I applaud the fact that Bioware tried something different with the story this time, even if the results were occasionally not entirely successful (as always happens, even in the best of interactive tales). I especially like the way my emotions were manipulated by (my playthrough of) the plot:

I really identified with family in Act I, and Bethany was always at my side, making me empathise much more with the apostate mages. However, when she was taken from me in Acts II and III, and I kept on having to deal with out of control mages, leading to the death of my mother, my sympathies were eroded. It made the final decision of who to side with much harder than I would have initially thought. Even though I did in the end choose family and the mages, it was not without misgivings (unlike my mage character from Origins, who always advocated for the mages).

So I liked the way the story of Kirkwall influenced my decisions, rather than me having the illusion of control over the story. It's been an interesting experiment in interactive narrative, enough for me to forgive the fact that every location was repeated over and over.

And it wasn't a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger would have been if the game had ended on a cutscene of you and your cohorts charging out of the Tower at the Templar army, a la Butch & Sundance, and then faded to white... I would not have minded that either.

There was a proper ending, even if it was ambivalent, a pyrrhic victory. And Leiliana did seem to hint at the end that the Champion and the Warden would meet up. Intriguing...

[Merced652]

txgoldrush wrote...

Darian Tylmare wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


But it is an inetractive story. Last time I checked, I could become a Viscount or an outcast. I could determine if my sister lives or dies. I could kill one of my party members for betraying me and give up another. I could side with the extremists in Chapter 2 leading to an alternate scene in the Chantry.

No, she (I am female Hawke) is not a point of view character, and in fact, really, the side you go against still respects you as Champion, especially Cullen. Hawke is a protagonist, she just doesn't move everything in the story. Too many WRPGs rely on the actions of one character while leaving other NPCs without roles to play except for antagonists.

The whole point of games is that you are the point man. Without you, nothing moves. There wouldn't be any motivation otherwise. I can say it's not bad to develop or make some minor decisions for NPCs, but regardless of what you do, the plot is always the same. This is not interactivity, it's railroading. There's no difference in what you do besides advancing the story.
And Role Playing Games let you assume of the role of a character, most often a hero or someone important.
While Hawke may be a hero and a respected person, his personal motivations don't do anything for the plot. Anders will blow up the Chantry, you have to kill both Merideth and Orsino, even if you spare the presumed lyli killer, nothing matters. The only thing you can influence is how you think your Hawke would react to it.

All Bioware games "railroad" you, DAII is no different.

And Hawke's personal motivations do make an impact in the end as he can become the Vicount.

And then disappear immediatley after, man that was awesome.

[Darian Tylmare]

txgoldrush wrote...

All Bioware games "railroad" you, DAII is no different.

And Hawke's personal motivations do make an impact in the end as he can become the Vicount.

What do you get in the game for becoming Viscount? You get one achievement. Other than that, there's nothing you, as the player, gain. By the time you become Viscount the game is over.
I didn't complain about being railroaded, what I meant to say is Hawke doesn't count. There would be no difference for the game's story if Hawke died while fleeing from Lothering. Hawke is just there so you have someone to focus the camera on.

[txgoldrush]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

TX.....

Ok, so Origins kind of has a cliched main story - you have the rising of someone from prior experience to join an order of renowned warriors to fight an ancient evil. You go on a quest to gain support for the war after the mini big bad betrays the good King and now you must fight both him and the evil menace on the horizon.

Except you know, there was so much more to it.

Redcliffe, where you can protect a village from an undead horde or leave it to burn, a young boy has been taken over by a demon and you're given the option to work with forbidden magics to sacrifice the mother, or kill the boy, or make the journey to the Mages Tower and hope that you'll be back in time so the demon won't go on a murderous rampage again.

Orzammar - Become the arbiter in a political maelstrom in order to get the soldiers you need. Discover the nuances of Dwarven society and make the decision between the seemingly morally upstanding traditionalist and the murderous but slightly charismatic son of the King. lead a suicide charge across the chasms of the earth no human or dwarf has set foot upon in centuries with the Legion of the Dead at our backs, plunging straight into the heart of the Darkspawn where they were thought to be untouchable. Ogres behind every door, the very Arch-Demon itself flying above our heads, and grisly perversions of nature spewing the flesh of their own kind back at us in unholy blasphemy to their original form. We slew the six-titted Brood Mother that spawns these monstrosities in dark and festering caves that will never know the sun, stopped an insane paragon-prophet from reinstating the sacrifices of thousands of innocents that makes Blood Magic look like it came out of a Harry Potter novel and fought alongside an ancient warrior trapped inside one of his own constructs for nigh a thousand years, and destroyed our best chance at stopping the Blight because sod it all, it was the right thing to do or embraced the dark practicality and kept the tool that would give you the edge but would forever damn your soul.

Brecilian Forest - Pride and vengence mingle as the wandering Dalish Elves deal with the attack of the cursed werewolves, leading into a forest where nothing is as it seems. Between trapped camping areas, walking trees, a force of cursed malice and anger simply wishing for a release, and an ancient spirit twisted by the howling for blood in one leaders soul.

Mages Tower -Forbidden Magicks and underlying resentments reign supreme as the Mages, led by the fraternity of the Libertarians, attempted to push for a more independent circle. Their hopeful revolution ended in a massacre, as abominations and demons surged through their home and killed mage and templar alike, their leader becoming an abomination of Pride and their magicks turning to the power of blood. The Templars are calling for the Rite of Annullment, the thing to end all life in the Tower, innocent or not, due to fear an inability. You rush in, either to rescue or to condem, and make your way through the carnage, fighting demons and blood mages at every turn. You are trapped in the fade and must look past the desires and wishes of both yourself and your friends to emerge victorious.

Loghain - Fereldens most inspired and celebrated General, turning on his King out of fear and paranoia of the Orlesian threat that he saved his country from thirty years before.  He does not believe that there is a Blight, nor that the Grey Wardens are as instrumental in its defeat as they claim. He removes the precieved orlesian plotters and the man who would hand his beloved country over to tyrants again. Time and time again, his refusal to acknowledge the Blight for what it really is is showcased, and only when we have arrived to directly threaten his power does he concede that the Blight may exist, but still does not believe in the necessity of the wardens. A true Patriot, corrupted by his paranoia and his alliegance with Rendon Howe

Archdemon - an ancient evil, one of the Old Gods of Tevinter, corrupted and twisted by the blood of the evil Darkspawn, a menace and blight upon the entire land. What they touch is poisoned, what they leave is a gruesome mockery of life. Their endless search for the one that they will corrupt, the one that will lead them, ends in triumph as Urthemiel rises and the Blight begins. Political alliances are strained, armies are slaughtered, and the Darkspawn continue their inexorable march forward after the betrayal at Ostagar. The Archdemon leads the attack on Denerim, the capital of Ferelden, and at the top of Fort Drakon it meets its doom. along with it, the possible death of the Warden who struggled to unite the peoples of Ferelden against this ancient evil and emerge victorious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh yeah, Origins is such a terrible redone story, excuse my foolish perception and enjoyment.

I said the side quests are quite good, however, a huge knock against Origins is that the side quests do not mesh with the main plot, except for who you can call in the final battle. The side stories aren't really thematically connected, which was strange for a bioware game because they usually are connected.

But there is no way to deny this.....DAO's main story is horrifically cliched. Far more so than Bioware's other games.

[Glorfindel709]

......The Treaties and what you have to do to get the support *ARE* the Main Story.

Side quests are Chanters Board, Mages Collective, Blackstone Irregulars, Interested Parties, The Crows, and all the little things you can do for people or get for solving riddles or puzzles while you're working on fixing the situation that has messed up your claiming that groups support for the treaty.


You quite literally cannot hope to combat the Big Bad without gaining the support of the races and factions that owe their support to the Grey Wardens. Without those treaties, it would be two Wardens and a bunch of misfits against an army of millions.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 19 mars 2011 - 06:51 .

[txgoldrush]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

All Bioware games "railroad" you, DAII is no different.

And Hawke's personal motivations do make an impact in the end as he can become the Vicount.

What do you get in the game for becoming Viscount? You get one achievement. Other than that, there's nothing you, as the player, gain. By the time you become Viscount the game is over.
I didn't complain about being railroaded, what I meant to say is Hawke doesn't count. There would be no difference for the game's story if Hawke died while fleeing from Lothering. Hawke is just there so you have someone to focus the camera on.

And why does the main character have to be the main driver of the story. There is plenty works of great literature and great films in which the protagonist isn't the main driver of th eevents in the story, but still makes choices that matter.

If Hawke wasn't there, the Arishok would be ruling Kirkwall.

[txgoldrush]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

......The Treaties and what you have to do to get the support *ARE* the Main Story.

Side quests are Chanters Board, Mages Collective, Blackstone Irregulars, Interested Parties, The Crows, and all the little things you can do for people or get for solving riddles or puzzles while you're working on fixing the situation that has messed up your claiming that groups support for the treaty.


You quite literally cannot hope to combat the Big Bad without gaining the support of the races and factions that owe their support to the Grey Wardens. Without those treaties, it would be two Wardens and a bunch of misfits against an army of millions.

oh, those plot coupons...like Star Maps...following closely with Biowares 4 world mid game cliche that they used to do until ME2 and DA2.

Ands thats the only thing connecting the main plot with the side story, no other common theme.

Dragon Age Origins was the game that showed Bioware was truly rehashing the same plot elements over and over again.

[Darian Tylmare]

txgoldrush wrote...

And why does the main character have to be the main driver of the story. There is plenty works of great literature and great films in which the protagonist isn't the main driver of th eevents in the story, but still makes choices that matter.

If Hawke wasn't there, the Arishok would be ruling Kirkwall.

Erm, because the main character is the main character. Now and if Hawke wasn't there, would the Arishok really rule over Kirkwall? I don't think so because than every major player would have joined forces to kick them out.
And honestly, why should I bother with playing a game which sidelines me? A major source for my enjoyment is being the point man.
And again, other media don't compare to video games. They aren't interactive.

[Lee337]

So what if it's a cliché, it was fun and drew you into a world that felt alive.

[Glorfindel709]

I can see that you're never going to accept the merit of DA:O so I'm just going to end this talk right now with this simple statement.

It is said that there are only so many stories to be told.

KotOR: The Redeemer Story
Mass Effect: Save the Universe
Mass Effect 2: Save the Universe Part 2
Dragon Age: Save the World.
Dragon Age 2: Right Place, Right Time

And sure, they followed the 4 world mid game cliche. The only difference is that in DA2 instead of 4 world it's one city that never changes (The Viscount is dead but someone is apparently still waiting to meet him *rolls eyes*) and multiple worlds, though for the most part you'll just be probing them for elements so you can upgrade stuff.

[txgoldrush]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And why does the main character have to be the main driver of the story. There is plenty works of great literature and great films in which the protagonist isn't the main driver of th eevents in the story, but still makes choices that matter.

If Hawke wasn't there, the Arishok would be ruling Kirkwall.

Erm, because the main character is the main character. Now and if Hawke wasn't there, would the Arishok really rule over Kirkwall? I don't think so because than every major player would have joined forces to kick them out.
And honestly, why should I bother with playing a game which sidelines me? A major source for my enjoyment is being the point man.
And again, other media don't compare to video games. They aren't interactive.

You are still the point man/woman, just not in the same cliched way. in fact, you are the point man on a personal level with the other companions including your sibling even getting those with opposing views to side with you. The lives of my companions can depend on my choices.

Its just a different, riskier story which works. In fact, I felt my decisions mean more becuase of the personal relationships with the characters.

The main character doe snot have to drive the big events in the story but make th eplot and the themes releavnt, and Hawke does this. And I hate how in most RPGs, you are the only player, no one else who is not the antagonist.

[arathor_87]

Can't agree that this is the best story. Think the story was pretty bad, could have been much better. Much weaker story than DA:O, and you have dark moments in DA:O to if you play as a human warrior/rogue or a cityelf.

The storyline was weak in this game..

[Chronicdoodler]

I tend to always play good characters because I have trouble being mean to pixels (I am pathetic), that being said I didn't really register the lack of actual choices. I however do recognize now my choices have little effect on the story. But more so then in Origins, I found myself pausing the game and stepping from the computer trying to determine how to respond.

My character can be helpless in how it all plays out in the end. But It felt so real, that I am not sacrificing how the story ultimately plays out, but who my character is. Some of the ways my character can respond, though futile can be powerful. I felt really in tune with with my Hawke, more then my warden.

Also my Hawke is not penalized for being who she is, I am essentially rewarded for being a consistent character with integrity, then one who will be random just to appease the characters I am with at the time.

I can't even compare Origins with DA2, they both seem like completely different games and I enjoy them both immensely. I played the first on console, and the second on my computer so I can't compare mechanics either.

As for story, I enjoyed the ride it took me on and I see it as a complete story. This isn't a story about the whole world, its a story about Hawke.

[Noatz]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

TX.....

Ok, so Origins kind of has a cliched main story - you have the rising of someone from prior experience to join an order of renowned warriors to fight an ancient evil. You go on a quest to gain support for the war after the mini big bad betrays the good King and now you must fight both him and the evil menace on the horizon.

Except you know, there was so much more to it.

Redcliffe, where you can protect a village from an undead horde or leave it to burn, a young boy has been taken over by a demon and you're given the option to work with forbidden magics to sacrifice the mother, or kill the boy, or make the journey to the Mages Tower and hope that you'll be back in time so the demon won't go on a murderous rampage again.

Orzammar - Become the arbiter in a political maelstrom in order to get the soldiers you need. Discover the nuances of Dwarven society and make the decision between the seemingly morally upstanding traditionalist and the murderous but slightly charismatic son of the King. lead a suicide charge across the chasms of the earth no human or dwarf has set foot upon in centuries with the Legion of the Dead at our backs, plunging straight into the heart of the Darkspawn where they were thought to be untouchable. Ogres behind every door, the very Arch-Demon itself flying above our heads, and grisly perversions of nature spewing the flesh of their own kind back at us in unholy blasphemy to their original form. We slew the six-titted Brood Mother that spawns these monstrosities in dark and festering caves that will never know the sun, stopped an insane paragon-prophet from reinstating the sacrifices of thousands of innocents that makes Blood Magic look like it came out of a Harry Potter novel and fought alongside an ancient warrior trapped inside one of his own constructs for nigh a thousand years, and destroyed our best chance at stopping the Blight because sod it all, it was the right thing to do or embraced the dark practicality and kept the tool that would give you the edge but would forever damn your soul.

Brecilian Forest - Pride and vengence mingle as the wandering Dalish Elves deal with the attack of the cursed werewolves, leading into a forest where nothing is as it seems. Between trapped camping areas, walking trees, a force of cursed malice and anger simply wishing for a release, and an ancient spirit twisted by the howling for blood in one leaders soul.

Mages Tower -Forbidden Magicks and underlying resentments reign supreme as the Mages, led by the fraternity of the Libertarians, attempted to push for a more independent circle. Their hopeful revolution ended in a massacre, as abominations and demons surged through their home and killed mage and templar alike, their leader becoming an abomination of Pride and their magicks turning to the power of blood. The Templars are calling for the Rite of Annullment, the thing to end all life in the Tower, innocent or not, due to fear an inability. You rush in, either to rescue or to condem, and make your way through the carnage, fighting demons and blood mages at every turn. You are trapped in the fade and must look past the desires and wishes of both yourself and your friends to emerge victorious.

Loghain - Fereldens most inspired and celebrated General, turning on his King out of fear and paranoia of the Orlesian threat that he saved his country from thirty years before.  He does not believe that there is a Blight, nor that the Grey Wardens are as instrumental in its defeat as they claim. He removes the precieved orlesian plotters and the man who would hand his beloved country over to tyrants again. Time and time again, his refusal to acknowledge the Blight for what it really is is showcased, and only when we have arrived to directly threaten his power does he concede that the Blight may exist, but still does not believe in the necessity of the wardens. A true Patriot, corrupted by his paranoia and his alliegance with Rendon Howe

Archdemon - an ancient evil, one of the Old Gods of Tevinter, corrupted and twisted by the blood of the evil Darkspawn, a menace and blight upon the entire land. What they touch is poisoned, what they leave is a gruesome mockery of life. Their endless search for the one that they will corrupt, the one that will lead them, ends in triumph as Urthemiel rises and the Blight begins. Political alliances are strained, armies are slaughtered, and the Darkspawn continue their inexorable march forward after the betrayal at Ostagar. The Archdemon leads the attack on Denerim, the capital of Ferelden, and at the top of Fort Drakon it meets its doom. along with it, the possible death of the Warden who struggled to unite the peoples of Ferelden against this ancient evil and emerge victorious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh yeah, Origins is such a terrible redone story, excuse my foolish perception and enjoyment.

All of which present conicidences that are somewhat a strain on credulity. Orzammar *just happens" to be in the middle of a political deadlock? The Circle tower *just happens* to have seen a blood mage coup d'etat? Redcliffe *just happens* to be under attack from a demon spawned undead horde?

They had to implement Loghain as a villain because they knew the Archdemon and darkspawn were just a mindless army of evil that on their own would be downright boring. And his posturing and treachery makes little sense with said mindless army of evil bearing down on the kingdom.

But the main reason people say Origins is cliched is as follows.

1. Hero starts off with stable life > 2. Hero's said stable life is shattered by an unexpected attack or event > 3. Hero joins an elite mysterious order > 4. Hero is joined by two companions, one male one female, one magial, one martial > 5. Hero must journey to several (often four) locations recruiting additional allies along the way > 6. At some point in his travels the hero ends up exploring the remains of an ancient civilisation > 7. Hero and the forces he has gathered sally forth for an epic confrontation with the villains who have been dogging his steps throughout steps 2-5. Allies may die/betray you if you have neglected their sidequests and relationships.

Its a formula, and Origins mostly fits it. You'll have a harder time fitting the plot of DA2 to it.

[txgoldrush]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I can see that you're never going to accept the merit of DA:O so I'm just going to end this talk right now with this simple statement.

It is said that there are only so many stories to be told.

KotOR: The Redeemer Story
Mass Effect: Save the Universe
Mass Effect 2: Save the Universe Part 2
Dragon Age: Save the World.
Dragon Age 2: Right Place, Right Time

And sure, they followed the 4 world mid game cliche. The only difference is that in DA2 instead of 4 world it's one city that never changes (The Viscount is dead but someone is apparently still waiting to meet him *rolls eyes*) and multiple worlds, though for the most part you'll just be probing them for elements so you can upgrade stuff.

Why should I accept the merit? and I have done so for the side stories and Leliana's character...but the game is so very cliched and so unimaginative in its plot that it just falls behind better RPG narratives that came before. Dark fantasy stories such as The Witcher and NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer completely annihilate Origins's story and were released a couple years before DAO, while being way more original.

The city does change, the characters grow, and so do their relationships. In fact, Aveline and Isabela, who can't stand eachother in the first two acts, become friendlier in Act III.

[Darian Tylmare]

That's your personal preferance. I like to call the shots myself and getting entertained by being the center of the universe in games. I want to make an impact and not be like any other dung covered wandering adventurer.
Besides, as someone else said, after 7000 years or more of history every story on every conceivable way was sometimes told. There's no new thing anymore. And what you consider cliche, I consider to be the best way for this very medium.

[KittinKirby]

Lulia wrote...

I couldn't disagree with you more.

I'm not arguing about the lack of a "hero" ending, but i think we went from hero to civil servant.

The whole mage vs templar scenario was a mistake because we ourselves can be mages and it just doesn't work. Why would everyone, including Meredith, turn a blind eye for us? They wouldn't.

The conflicting points of veiws and ulterior motives meant we couldn't connect with any of the other characters in any meaningful way.

Merrill was a nut. Who was she supposed to be helping? No one needed or asked for her help. I was never made aware of how she was gong to help someone... just that she insisted on "helping" by alienating herself and eventually killing her loved ones.

End game, we didn't impact the situation at all.

The Qunari were always going to attack, Anders was always going to blow up the chantry, Meredith was always goign to be possessed and the first enchanter was always going to be a blood mage.

None of it would have been any different if we hadn't been there.

It isn't particularly dark - it's controversial, but mundane. We were already aware of the templar/mage thing in DA1 and us taking sides doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

I enjoyed the game, but seriously - the story does nothing for me.

The best bit was Flemeth popping out of the amulet and getting one over on Morrigan. Oh and mother dying was sad too

I knew Anders was going to do something stupid, but i thought it would at least be for his cause. Blowing up the chantry, yes it was a shock moment - but it was only so out of the blue because it made no sense at all!

I've tried, but i just cannot comprehend any logic behind what Anders did. Blow up Meredith, yes, but up some old dear and loads of mages because they wouldn't take his side...

The only way to have made anything out of the story would have been to allow us to side with Thrask, but that wasn't an options.

The whole plot could have been summised at the end of DA1 - "Soon after the mages in Kirkwall rebelled against the Templars. The chantry was destroyed."

^^^ This.

[fathomless33]

Chronicdoodler wrote...

I tend to always play good characters because I have trouble being mean to pixels (I am pathetic), that being said I didn't really register the lack of actual choices. I however do recognize now my choices have little effect on the story. But more so then in Origins, I found myself pausing the game and stepping from the computer trying to determine how to respond.

My character can be helpless in how it all plays out in the end. But It felt so real, that I am not sacrificing how the story ultimately plays out, but who my character is. Some of the ways my character can respond, though futile can be powerful. I felt really in tune with with my Hawke, more then my warden.

Also my Hawke is not penalized for being who she is, I am essentially rewarded for being a consistent character with integrity, then one who will be random just to appease the characters I am with at the time.

I can't even compare Origins with DA2, they both seem like completely different games and I enjoy them both immensely. I played the first on console, and the second on my computer so I can't compare mechanics either.

As for story, I enjoyed the ride it took me on and I see it as a complete story. This isn't a story about the whole world, its a story about Hawke.

This... there were so many moments in this game i stopped to consider my actions and the consequences that go along with them, the crappy part is the fact that i just wasted time because none of those thought out choices made a difference. It was all frosting and no cake.