206 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

That's your personal preferance. I like to call the shots myself and getting entertained by being the center of the universe in games. I want to make an impact and not be like any other dung covered wandering adventurer.
Besides, as someone else said, after 7000 years or more of history every story on every conceivable way was sometimes told. There's no new thing anymore. And what you consider cliche, I consider to be the best way for this very medium.

There are story archetypes that are way more cliched than others. Saving the world from a force of always chaotic evil creatures or a madman nihilist is one of the most overused cliches. Take JRPGs for example, some of the biggest offenders...most stories are about how a young boy and his young girl love interest saving the world from an evil madman who wants to destroy or conquer everything. Look at Final Fantasy, its almost the same story every game...madman wants to destroy the world, existance, etc. It was awesome when Kefka did it, but the series has the same villian since then...Ultimeca, Kuja, Seymour, that stupid superpope character in FFXIII, and even in the end Sephiroth and the same story...save the world.

Thats what makes Atlus games so fresh...they do not play into cliches. Radiant Historia has big time choice and consquence and a very clever time traveling mechanism in which sometimes, your actions can destroy the world. Then there is Tactics Ogre....making the genre look like crap for 16 years...and has even better morally grey choice and consquence than most WRPGs.

Extremely morally grey political stories have been done before...but they are very rare that you see them in games.

And as a pointman/pointwoman...I find influencing a persons life to be far more powerful than being a god like character in which all the world bows to my decisions. DAII and the rivalry path gives me that choice and influence.

[Rob Sabbaggio]

Just finished DA2, credits playing as I type.

What an ending, what a plot. Wow. Blown away.

[txgoldrush]

And what is one of the reason Planescape Torment is revered as it is?

By not being cliched.

[Dark Specie]

Darkest? If it's the "darkest" by virtue of being a game that contantly dumps a lot of crap in Hawke's lap, then certainly! Still, that's not really the big problem I have with the game. It was fairly good up until the later half off the third arc, which feels rushed and having things that were badly implemented. But not even that is the biggest problem I had with the end of the game. By Conan's well-oiled nipples, the problem is that in the third arc, the player isn't left with any overall feeling of triumph or even accomplishment!


In comparison, let me bring up the Witcher. In The Witcher, things went to hell no matter which side the player supported. Even you stayed neutral - which, IMO, SHOULD have been a choice here as well, with the player opting to protect the town of Kirkwall (seems like a more champion-ish thing to do in any event) from the worst burnt of the battle between the templars & mages - the town burst into battle between the Flaming Rose and the non-humans anyway. But at the VERY least, you're allowed to stop the madman behind it all, recover what was stolen from your order and are rewarded for your efforts. You're left with perhaps not a feeling of triumph, but at least with a feeling of accomplishment. DAO2 leaves you with nothing of that sort, unfortunately - at least not in Act 3.



As for "good"... Well, there are certainly things about DA2 that I love - such as the Friendship/Rivality thing, but otherwise... The feeling of lack of our choices having any greater impact, the badly done late third arc, the already-mentioned lack of feeling of triumph or accomplishment, the reused areas... *shakes head*. DA2 was an entertaining enough game, sure enough. But I wouldn't place it on the top of my top ten of computer game RPG's...

Modifié par Dark Specie, 19 mars 2011 - 08:29 .

[Lady Danger]

The story has its faults, but I like it more for the potential it brings to the series than the actual plot line.

Modifié par Lady Danger, 19 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[Lee337]

The use of the word cliché is becoming such a cliché.

[txgoldrush]

Dark Specie wrote...

Darkest? If it's the "darkest" by virtue of being a game that contantly dumps a lot of crap in Hawke's lap, then certainly! Still, that's not really the big problem I have with the game. It was fairly good up until the later half off the third arc, which feels rushed and having things that were badly implemented. But not even that is the biggest problem I had with the end of the game. By Conan's well-oiled nipples, the problem is that in the third arc, the player isn't left with any overall feeling of triumph or even accomplishment!


In comparison, let me bring up the Witcher. In The Witcher, things went to hell no matter which side the player supported. Even you stayed neutral - which, IMO, SHOULD have been a choice here as well, with the player opting to protect the town of Kirkwall (seems like a more champion-ish thing to do in any event) from the worst burnt of the battle between the templars & mages - the town burst into battle between the Flaming Rose and the non-humans anyway. But at the VERY least, you're allowed to stop the madman behind it all, recover what was stolen from your order and are rewarded for your efforts. You're left with perhaps not a feeling of triumph, but at least with a feeling of accomplishment. DAO2 leaves you with nothing of that sort, unfortunately - at least not in Act 3.



As for "good"... Well, there are certainly things about DA2 that I love - such as the Friendship/Rivality thing, but otherwise... The feeling of lack of our choices having any greater impact, the badly done late third arc, the already-mentioned lack of feeling of triumph or accomplishment, the reused areas... *shakes head*. DA2 was an entertaining enough game, sure enough. But I wouldn't place it on the top of my top ten of computer game RPG's...

and why does every game HAVE to leave you with a sense of accomplisment and/ or triumph? In fact, I think DAII tops the first Witcher game in not having a character be a main antagonist, having "nature" as one, and having the antagonist win. Not every story is of accomplishment, not every choice can have a positive outcome.

The ending is not rushed. Why? Becuase once everything explodes, events happen very quickly and at a frightening pace. The pace was realistic.

You can play neutral if you support the Templars and not execute the mages or allow Meridth to gruesomely run through Bethany with he rlyrium sword. Here you support order, but not Meredith.

[Kats_RK]

You must be joking.

[Lady Danger]

and why does every game HAVE to leave you with a sense of accomplisment and/ or triumph?

I can't figure out the reasoning behind this either. 

Modifié par Lady Danger, 19 mars 2011 - 08:43 .

[Lee337]

Awww now you've ruined the end of the witcher for me!

[Ileanos07]

I can say only this: Story is very good. But that is all.... When someone ask me for my opinion I said 7/10. 7 for the story. For me DA2 is still worst bioware game (tough it is still better than many other RPGs )

[txgoldrush]

Ileanos07 wrote...

I can say only this: Story is very good. But that is all.... When someone ask me for my opinion I said 7/10. 7 for the story. For me DA2 is still worst bioware game (tough it is still better than many other RPGs )

No, the Sonic game is Bioware's worst....

I think DAII tops DAO and NWN, its Biowares thrid worst if I do not include Sonic.

[Dark Specie]

txgoldrush wrote...
and why does every game HAVE to leave you with a sense of accomplisment and/ or triumph?

Because that's what we play it for. Not convinced? See here:

http://www.shamusyou...dedtale/?p=1108

Nothing sadder for a player than to realize that he/she wasn't needed  for the story/didn't really play any important part in it. Or worse yet, played it all for no clear reason. Thing is though, if we're left with only gloom and doom at the end, no feeling of accomplishment or triumph, then what was the point of playing the story? We play it to have fun, to try and make a difference in a fictional world, to be heroes, saviours - or possibly the opposite end of it,  whatever you name it. Take that way and... 

txgoldrush wrote...
Not every story is of accomplishment, not every choice can have a positive outcome.

Agreed, but  there should be a certain limit to that. I can tolerate a certain degree of failure, but when we only get failure upon failure pilled upon each other, then it's too much.

txgoldrush wrote...
The ending is not rushed. Why? Becuase once everything explodes, events happen very quickly and at a frightening pace. The pace was realistic..

*shrugs* . We shall simply have to disagree there then.

txgoldrush wrote...
You can play neutral if you support the Templars and not execute the mages or allow Meridth to gruesomely run through Bethany with he rlyrium sword. Here you support order, but not Meredith.

Sorry, that still doesn't feel neutral to me

[txgoldrush]

Look at Planescape Torment...consistantly refered to as the best written game in all of mankind.

There is only one ending....

Damnation...no matter how good you are in the game.

[CRISIS1717]

The storyline to this game is awful Hawke is just a mercenary that was in the right places at the right time and the plot can be summed up as just Orzammar expedition, Qunari attack and Mages vs Templars.

Terrible terrible story that lacks purpose and direction. Bioware the last bastion of hope for great rpgs has fallen, this is a sad day indeed.

[Unichrone]

No.

Seeing my undead mother break-dancing during the fight with the Necromancer just ruined the magic.

Load a save if you don't believe me.

Also, Isabela was just stereotypically obscene. We get it. You're promiscuous. No subtlety, no wit. She may as well just have gone around saying "Phallus, lol!"

Also, the modern culture references were obvious and highly uncreative.

[txgoldrush]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The storyline to this game is awful Hawke is just a mercenary that was in the right places at the right time and the plot can be summed up as just Orzammar expedition, Qunari attack and Mages vs Templars.

Terrible terrible story that lacks purpose and direction. Bioware the last bastion of hope for great rpgs has fallen, this is a sad day indeed.

maybe you did not get the unconventional direction it had....it had purpose, to show that your actions as well as the actions of others can spiral things out of control. Sometimes things take years. Your actions taken to prepare for the Deep Roads expedition impact the plot later. In fact, the artifact found in the Deep Roads plays huge roles later.

A story can change its focus and direction, it isn't forced to stick to one direction.

[Dangerfoot]

I'm really tired of everyone calling everything cliche. Dragon Age used tropes that aren't original, sure, but they crafted a great game out of those tropes. Nothing is original anymore, all you can do is tell your story in a more fascinating way than the last guy.

[TheJediSaint]

Tropes are tools, the quality of a work is based on how one uses them, not one their originality.

[txgoldrush]

Dangerfoot wrote...

I'm really tired of everyone calling everything cliche. Dragon Age used tropes that aren't original, sure, but they crafted a great game out of those tropes. Nothing is original anymore, all you can do is tell your story in a more fascinating way than the last guy.

But lack of originality can be a problem...if it s done before and done better, it just shows how lesser of the work it is.

You cannot avoid every cliche and trope, but using too many or telling a story thats been told before is a problem.

[heretica]

Totally agree with OP !!! I don't understand all the hate

[AlexXIV]

Well the story as such is better than DA:O story simply because the DA;O story was pretty generic. At least on the whole. Of course there were surprising details, but the whole recruiting and gathering forces for the final battle didn't hold many surprises. But the really good stuff is in the lore.

Anyway, DA2's story was better, but in my opinion they went too far with Hawke's mother. It's a dark and sad tale anyway and that was just unnecessary and I just can't help to find it ruining the story and game a bit for me.

[Relshar]

To the OP what are you smoking? The story was crap. Your character has no influence within it. Hawke is just a supporting actor between two waring factions within the city. The game play is poor as is the maps that get recycled in each and every quest. Once your done with Act1 you seen all your going to see in the city, dungeons and caves.

You can't even choose a different race nor can you change the equipment on your companions plus the fact you cant speak to them. I felt no attachment to any of them other than Varric, and I put that down to the fact he is the one telling the story.

If people think this is a good game after playing DA:O, then they wouldn't know what a good game is if it slapped them in the face with a wet fish.

[txgoldrush]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well the story as such is better than DA:O story simply because the DA;O story was pretty generic. At least on the whole. Of course there were surprising details, but the whole recruiting and gathering forces for the final battle didn't hold many surprises. But the really good stuff is in the lore.

Anyway, DA2's story was better, but in my opinion they went too far with Hawke's mother. It's a dark and sad tale anyway and that was just unnecessary and I just can't help to find it ruining the story and game a bit for me.

I think it was the game's greatest scene...although the animation could use work.

But the greatest part is how a party member and Aveline will try to console you, especially if its Isabella and really how much better it makes to have a voiced protagonist.

[AllThatJazz]

[quote]Relshar wrote...

To the OP what are you smoking? The story was crap. Your character has no influence within it. Hawke is just a supporting actor between two waring factions within the city. The game play is poor as is the maps that get recycled in each and every quest. Once your done with Act1 you seen all your going to see in the city, dungeons and caves.

You can't even choose a different race nor can you change the equipment on your companions plus the fact you cant speak to them. I felt no attachment to any of them other than Varric, and I put that down to the fact he is the one telling the story.

If people think this is a good game after playing DA:O, then they wouldn't know what a good game is if it slapped them in the face with a wet fish. [/quote]

Or possibly that they just have a different opinion to yours?