339 réponses à ce sujet

[StingingVelvet]

1. Not everyone wants things simpler and easier to manage. Depth and complexity can add a lot to the experience.

2. It's a disappointing game, even without focusing on the streamlining. Repeated content all through the game, you play act one and then play it again two more times. The waves of enemies that spawn right in front of you. No companion customization. Simplistic dialogue system that feels neutered. Did I say repeated content already?

There are reasons why the game is disappointing to many people. It was rushed to market and it shows, and some of the basic decisions were poor. I still like it, it's an RPG and has many upsides, but it's a massive disappointment.

[Persephone]

StingingVelvet wrote...

1. Not everyone wants things simpler and easier to manage. Depth and complexity can add a lot to the experience.

2. It's a disappointing game, even without focusing on the streamlining. Repeated content all through the game, you play act one and then play it again two more times. The waves of enemies that spawn right in front of you. No companion customization. Simplistic dialogue system that feels neutered. Did I say repeated content already?

There are reasons why the game is disappointing to many people. It was rushed to market and it shows, and some of the basic decisions were poor. I still like it, it's an RPG and has many upsides, but it's a massive disappointment.

Really? I felt huge differences in Act I, II and III. The only thing you can't do with your companions is play dress up the dolly. You can still upgrade their equipment, swap their weapons etc.

[hawat333]

Persephone wrote...
Really? I felt huge differences in Act I, II and III. The only thing you can't do with your companions is play dress up the dolly. You can still upgrade their equipment, swap their weapons etc.

No variety in armors. You could have a heavy armor wearing rogue or an archer mage if you liked in the first game. After the first playthrough it was fun.
What really hurts is the lack of ability to change weapon specs/styles for companions. You don't carry two tanks or three archers because you don't need them. It would be easily remedied by adding a secondary spec to companions, but nooo, they have to be simple as a rock.
So there are a lot of things you can't do with your companions.

[Ajspeed]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
It is still worst showing for bioware game ever unless you count sonic I suppose.

And few reviewers have given it 6/10 which is very low, do you not agree.

I am not talking about user scores you know.

Indeed metascore is almost as low as it is with awakening.

So unless a game breaks 90, it's objectively crap? Wow.

Let me break it down for you. You're right, many reviewers didn't like DA2 as much as DA:O. Many players didn't like DA2 as much as DA:O. Also, many reviewers like DA2 better, as did many players.

I loved DA:O, I liked DA2 slightly better. You liked DA:O and didn't like DA2. Who is right? Neither. They're both objectively good games, and neither is objectively better than the other. The things that I like in a game? DA2 did better. The things that you like in a game? DA:O did better.

Haters seem to take offense to the idea of subjective quality, despite the fact that it's a pretty age old concept. I'm perfectly happy to say that there are things that each game did better, than the things that DA2 did better are things that mattered more to me, personally. But haters? NO EVERYONE MUST HATE IT LIKE I DO OR THEY ARE WRONG.

Thats what i meant by the intial comment, the game isnt bad in no respects. Sure its got bugs and balancing problems but what games these days dont? Review wise alot of them are purely from a solo perspective but its not a bad game its more refined the DA:O or as some may say less Traditional but who wants to stick to the original RPG formula, from the get go its had major problems in trying to balance a simulation of someone else

[Persephone]

Galad22 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Galad22 wrote...


That is just not fair, I am in these forums now a little because I didn't like the changes Bioware made to dragon age 2. Thus I am complaining here so that my voice it at least heard by bioware, just in hopes they change it to the better next time. I think it is perfectly reasonable thing to do. And wouldn't you do exactly same thing if you had problems with some of the changes?

I don't whine in metacritic either, I whine here. Much better change to make some difference.

Gala, the point is this: I have no problem with constructive, reasonable criticism. Bioware is looking for that too. What I have a problem with is hate spewing. You're not doing that, you say. Good for you then.

Alright, but you should practise that some since you seem to have a problem with every single point of criticism that anyone have about the game.

Not exactly. The re-used enviroments bother me. As do the suddenly spawning waves. (I hated being wedged in by enemies in DAO just as much though) I also would like to be able to play dress up the doll with my companions. Or have more interactions with companions....I'd love a combo of DAO and DA2 mechanics there.

[RosaAquafire]

StingingVelvet wrote...
but it's a massive disappointment.

To you.

StingingVelvet wrote...
1. Not everyone wants things simpler and easier to manage. Depth and complexity can add a lot to the experience.

Like, for instance, the more complex talent trees that DA2 added? Or the more robust cross class combos, versus DA:O's simplistic and overpowered magic combos? Or better synergy between statistics? Or different types of enemies who require different tactics to beat, as opposed to "melee dudes, archer, occassional mage?" Or armour enchanting in addition to weapon enchanting? Or sidequests more complex than "go here, kill a dude, talk to Chanter for cash?"

That sort of depth and complexity?

StingingVelvet wrote...
2.
It's a disappointing game, even without focusing on the streamlining.
Repeated content all through the game, you play act one and then play it
again two more times. The waves of enemies that spawn right in front
of you.

I agree with these, though I respect those who disagree and thought those were good changes. No, actually, I don't care about "repeated content," the story was focused on the City of KIrkwall, leaving Kirkwall would have accomplished nothing narratively and would have been a bone thrown to people who like exploration more than storyline, but I get where the complaint COMES from. I hated waves of enemies and have knocked them all over the place, but DA2's combat was superiour on every other level so I think it's a fair trade.

StingingVelvet wrote...
No companion customization.

Weapons, belts, rings, amulets, and enchanting. Sorry, I don't need to dress my companions in the morning like I'm their mom. Give me ~*lack of customization*~ over my entire party looking like NPCs in identical plate mail. I positively LOVED seeing all my dudes wearing clothing that was INTERESTING, UNIQUE, and SPECIFIC to them. Much better than Leliana in yet another roman centurian leather skirt.

StingingVelvet wrote...
Simplistic dialogue system that
feels neutered.

To you. There were about as many dialogue options for every choice in DA2 as in DA:O, and I say this as I'm replaying DA:O at this very moment and paying close attention to that. I'd say DA:O has ONE more option about 25% of the time, and it's worth the trade for a character who doesn't dumbly stare.

EDIT: Oh, and also, I've noticed that characters respond to your tone a lot more often in DA2 than in DA:O. They'll ignore snarkiness in DA:O, but in DA2, they'll usually either laugh or call you on it. How is that neutered?

StingingVelvet wrote...
Did I say repeated content already?

This post is full of repeated content, I'm going to slam it on the internet!

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 19 mars 2011 - 01:17 .

[Persephone]

hawat333 wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Really? I felt huge differences in Act I, II and III. The only thing you can't do with your companions is play dress up the dolly. You can still upgrade their equipment, swap their weapons etc.

No variety in armors. You could have a heavy armor wearing rogue or an archer mage if you liked in the first game. After the first playthrough it was fun.
What really hurts is the lack of ability to change weapon specs/styles for companions. You don't carry two tanks or three archers because you don't need them. It would be easily remedied by adding a secondary spec to companions, but nooo, they have to be simple as a rock.
So there are a lot of things you can't do with your companions.

There's a mod fixing almost everything you listed there. (Except dressing up the dolly) Want a link? 

[FedericoV]

I believe that while DA2 deserve some criticism and indeed feel like a game that would have benefitted a lot by a longer dev cycle and more budget, we should not forget that even DA:O received a lot of criticism at its publication (mostly deserved criticism).

So, while there is allways a place for rational criticism and the game have indeed some shortcomings due to the rushed dev cycle, I believe that the hate is not deserved and that it has nothing to do with the quality of the game but more with gaming politics and internet rage.

[Ajspeed]

Become a reviewer rosa you have some great points

[Loc'n'lol]

"Beacuase" !

[RosaAquafire]

And for the record -- I don't think DA2 was perfect.

I recognize that c/ped caves was lazy, though I don't personally care. I HATED waves of enemies, they kicked tactics in the balls, who cares about being tactical when another ****ing rage demon is going to spawn and stunlock Anders anyways. Thought there could have been more variation of outcomes for some of the conflicts -- though I'll defend the linearity of the Lily Killer plotline to my grave, you're SUPPOSED to feel helpless there, thematic elements of narrative > player agency. Healing was sooo not fun in DA2, weak and useless and lame, I enjoy playing support characters and I miss the option to do it with dedication. The ending was a little abrupt and I didn't feel I got any closure for Hawke or her companions, aside from her LI.

But I did like it better than DA:O. And I did like it better than any game I've played recently. And I'm gonna defend it from the hate legions.

[Persephone]

RosaAquafire wrote...

And for the record -- I don't think DA2 was perfect.

I recognize that c/ped caves was lazy, though I don't personally care. I HATED waves of enemies, they kicked tactics in the balls, who cares about being tactical when another ****ing rage demon is going to spawn and stunlock Anders anyways. Thought there could have been more variation of outcomes for some of the conflicts -- though I'll defend the linearity of the Lily Killer plotline to my grave, you're SUPPOSED to feel helpless there, thematic elements of narrative > player agency. Healing was sooo not fun in DA2, weak and useless and lame, I enjoy playing support characters and I miss the option to do it with dedication. The ending was a little abrupt and I didn't feel I got any closure for Hawke or her companions, aside from her LI.

But I did like it better than DA:O. And I did like it better than any game I've played recently. And I'm gonna defend it from the hate legions.

*Persephone approves + 100000000000000000000*

[Ajspeed]

Persephone wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

And for the record -- I don't think DA2 was perfect.

I recognize that c/ped caves was lazy, though I don't personally care. I HATED waves of enemies, they kicked tactics in the balls, who cares about being tactical when another ****ing rage demon is going to spawn and stunlock Anders anyways. Thought there could have been more variation of outcomes for some of the conflicts -- though I'll defend the linearity of the Lily Killer plotline to my grave, you're SUPPOSED to feel helpless there, thematic elements of narrative > player agency. Healing was sooo not fun in DA2, weak and useless and lame, I enjoy playing support characters and I miss the option to do it with dedication. The ending was a little abrupt and I didn't feel I got any closure for Hawke or her companions, aside from her LI.

But I did like it better than DA:O. And I did like it better than any game I've played recently. And I'm gonna defend it from the hate legions.

*Persephone approves + 100000000000000000000*

Second that seconding with my name in that place!

[FedericoV]

StingingVelvet wrote...

1. Not everyone wants things simpler and easier to manage. Depth and complexity can add a lot to the experience.

DA2 combat system has more depth than DA:O. It's more accessible but that has nothing to do with depth. People saying that the game is an hack and slash button masher, have not learned to play it how is meant to be played (or are playing the game on consolle wich forces you to push for each attack wich for me would be a tragedy).

2. It's a disappointing game, even without focusing on the streamlining. Repeated content all through the game, you play act one and then play it again two more times. The waves of enemies that spawn right in front of you. No companion customization. Simplistic dialogue system that feels neutered. Did I say repeated content already?

Most issues you raise are subjective.

The only objective point is the recycle issue wich is indeed very bad. Kirkwall is really beautifull and I love the idea of that large quest hub. The problem is that since the game recycle all of the other locations, even Kirkwall risks to loose its charm after a while.

Dialogues are not that simplistic. It's that they feel disjointed. Honestly I don't know if it's an isse of the dialogue wheel itself or if it's only a question of lack of polish.

The wave mechanic: I love it. Yes, enemy spawning from nowhere are questionable but it's a game after all and not a movie by Kurosawa... the wave mechanic adds a layer of strategy to combat that DA:O entirely missed. I don't know why people say that it kills tactics since you have to play tactically and strategically because of the wave mechanic...

Modifié par FedericoV, 19 mars 2011 - 01:35 .

[Ronin2006]

RosaAquafire wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...
but it's a massive disappointment.

To you.

StingingVelvet wrote...
1. Not everyone wants things simpler and easier to manage. Depth and complexity can add a lot to the experience.

Like, for instance, the more complex talent trees that DA2 added? Or the more robust cross class combos, versus DA:O's simplistic and overpowered magic combos? Or better synergy between statistics? Or different types of enemies who require different tactics to beat, as opposed to "melee dudes, archer, occassional mage?" Or armour enchanting in addition to weapon enchanting? Or sidequests more complex than "go here, kill a dude, talk to Chanter for cash?"

That sort of depth and complexity?

StingingVelvet wrote...
2.
It's a disappointing game, even without focusing on the streamlining.
Repeated content all through the game, you play act one and then play it
again two more times. The waves of enemies that spawn right in front
of you.

I agree with these, though I respect those who disagree and thought those were good changes. No, actually, I don't care about "repeated content," the story was focused on the City of KIrkwall, leaving Kirkwall would have accomplished nothing narratively and would have been a bone thrown to people who like exploration more than storyline, but I get where the complaint COMES from. I hated waves of enemies and have knocked them all over the place, but DA2's combat was superiour on every other level so I think it's a fair trade.

StingingVelvet wrote...
No companion customization.

Weapons, belts, rings, amulets, and enchanting. Sorry, I don't need to dress my companions in the morning like I'm their mom. Give me ~*lack of customization*~ over my entire party looking like NPCs in identical plate mail. I positively LOVED seeing all my dudes wearing clothing that was INTERESTING, UNIQUE, and SPECIFIC to them. Much better than Leliana in yet another roman centurian leather skirt.

StingingVelvet wrote...
Simplistic dialogue system that
feels neutered.

To you. There were about as many dialogue options for every choice in DA2 as in DA:O, and I say this as I'm replaying DA:O at this very moment and paying close attention to that. I'd say DA:O has ONE more option about 25% of the time, and it's worth the trade for a character who doesn't dumbly stare.

EDIT: Oh, and also, I've noticed that characters respond to your tone a lot more often in DA2 than in DA:O. They'll ignore snarkiness in DA:O, but in DA2, they'll usually either laugh or call you on it. How is that neutered?

StingingVelvet wrote...
Did I say repeated content already?

This post is full of repeated content, I'm going to slam it on the internet!

Rosa you have criticised those that go on forums and review sites and disparage Dragon Age 2 and call them nerds, yet you are resorting to the same forum to defend it.  Pot/kettle much?

Also, you mention the notion of objectivity and the way those that disliked Dragon Age dislike it without objectivity, yet your arguments are littered with subjective value judgments such as the combat being "superior."

Ultimately, a lot of posters such as myself are posting negativity here not because of 'nerd rage' as you so eloquently put it, but because this is a forum for feedback.  One where Bioware has openly invited constructive criticism, and thus that is what they will be getting.  Obviously this will seem negative and appear to have hatred, but if you read most of it carefully, it certainly isn't without it's own merits.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 19 mars 2011 - 01:32 .

[RosaAquafire]

Ronin2006 wrote...
Rosa you have criticised those that go on forums and review sites and disparage Dragon Age 2 and call them nerds, yet you are resorting to the same forum to defend it.  Pot/kettle much?

Also, you mention the notion of objectivity and the way those that disliked Dragon Age dislike it without objectivity, yet your arguments are littered with subjective value judgments such as the combat being "superior."

Ultimately, a lot of posters such as myself are posting negativity here not because of 'nerd rage' as you so eloquently put it, but because this is a forum for feedback.  One where Bioware has openly invited constructive criticism, and thus that is what they will be getting.  Obviously this will seem negative and appear to have hatred, but if you read most of it carefully, it certainly isn't without it's own merits.

On the contrary! You are being reasonable and well spoken and I respect that. I have no problems with people disliking DA2, I have a problem with it being popular to hate and throw fruit at.

Few of my arguments are entirely objective , as no argument is ever objective. However, some of it (characters react more to tone of dialogue in DA2 than they do in DA:O, DA2's combat trees are more complex [not hard to be more complex than a line], etc.) is objective at least to my own data gathering -- I'd happily be proven wrong with evidence.

I honestly have no issues with people disliking the game, though I'll argue with them. When I talk about nerd rage, I'm sure as hell not talking about sensible, reasonable people making a list of things that worked and didn't work for them in DA2, even when the worked list is short and the didn't work list is long.

[TJSolo]

Like, for instance, the more complex talent trees that DA2 added?

Mages got stiffed on spells.
Rogues gained useless things.
Warrior can now only go 2h or SnS, mixing the two sucks because there is no alternative gear setting.

Or the more robust cross class combos, versus DA:O's simplistic and overpowered magic combos?

The CCC system is limiting because it removes intra-class combos and self-combos.The modifers are still overpowered, brittle + assassinate = 40k+ damage.

Or better synergy between statistics?

The synergy is the same magic and willpower are just as important to a non-blood mage in DAO as it is in DAO. However, the willpower reqs for gear is limits the synergy of magic and constitution for a blood mage in DA2.

Or different types of enemies who require different tactics to beat, as opposed to "melee dudes, archer, occassional mage?"

Not different types, just certain bosses. The majority of both games would be beating melee dudes, archers, and mages in the normal fashion.

Or armour enchanting in addition to weapon enchanting?

Too bad there is fewer runes.

Or sidequests more complex than "go here, kill a dude, talk to Chanter for cash?"

Here is a list of your "complex" quests in DA2.
http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)
Funny thing is there is a rather large number of quests that have Hawke finding trash around Kirkwall and magically knowing who that trash belongs to and where they are.

[Ronin2006]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...
Rosa you have criticised those that go on forums and review sites and disparage Dragon Age 2 and call them nerds, yet you are resorting to the same forum to defend it.  Pot/kettle much?

Also, you mention the notion of objectivity and the way those that disliked Dragon Age dislike it without objectivity, yet your arguments are littered with subjective value judgments such as the combat being "superior."

Ultimately, a lot of posters such as myself are posting negativity here not because of 'nerd rage' as you so eloquently put it, but because this is a forum for feedback.  One where Bioware has openly invited constructive criticism, and thus that is what they will be getting.  Obviously this will seem negative and appear to have hatred, but if you read most of it carefully, it certainly isn't without it's own merits.

On the contrary! You are being reasonable and well spoken and I respect that. I have no problems with people disliking DA2, I have a problem with it being popular to hate and throw fruit at.

Few of my arguments are entirely objective , as no argument is ever objective. However, some of it (characters react more to tone of dialogue in DA2 than they do in DA:O, DA2's combat trees are more complex [not hard to be more complex than a line], etc.) is objective at least to my own data gathering -- I'd happily be proven wrong with evidence.

I honestly have no issues with people disliking the game, though I'll argue with them. When I talk about nerd rage, I'm sure as hell not talking about sensible, reasonable people making a list of things that worked and didn't work for them in DA2, even when the worked list is short and the didn't work list is long.

Thanks Rosa, I appreciate that you too are being reasonable, and believe that if more people were like this, the forum certainly would be more 'constructive' rather than destructive.

Further, as there are many people posting who seem determined to say things like "this game sux" and bring it down with baseless accusations, there are just as many people making baseless defences of the game saying that it is 'awesome' without any real merits either.

[james1976]

StingingVelvet wrote...

1. Not everyone wants things simpler and easier to manage. Depth and complexity can add a lot to the experience.

2. It's a disappointing game, even without focusing on the streamlining. Repeated content all through the game, you play act one and then play it again two more times. The waves of enemies that spawn right in front of you. No companion customization. Simplistic dialogue system that feels neutered. Did I say repeated content already?

There are reasons why the game is disappointing to many people. It was rushed to market and it shows, and some of the basic decisions were poor. I still like it, it's an RPG and has many upsides, but it's a massive disappointment.

This. Not saying it's completely a bad game as it has some good points, but the above quote says pretty much what kills the game for me.  Companion interaction was lacking as well.  Overall it feels at times like a mature rated game made for a 5 year old.

Modifié par james1976, 19 mars 2011 - 01:51 .

[RosaAquafire]

TJSolo wrote...
Mages got stiffed on spells.

I see why Bioware did this and I agree with their philosophy, but I understand why people wouldn't be down with it, so fair enough.

TJSolo wrote...
Rogues gained useless things.

Except that you then brought this up! Most of the spells that were ditched for mages were either "useless" or overpowered. I liked everything about rogues in DA2 so again we're at subjective arguments.

TJSolo wrote...
Warrior can now only go 2h or SnS, mixing the two sucks because there is no alternative gear setting.

Again, I think this was a good design choice, but we're looking at it from such vastly different points of view that we'll never convince each other so I'll give you this one.

TJSolo wrote...
The CCC system is limiting because it removes intra-class combos and self-combos.

I will defend this one -- this was on purpose. Self combos aren't supposed to exist, they're not a part of DA's philosophy. Dragon Age is about party based combat, and forcing all combos to be party related supports this design choice and pushes Dragon Age's most unique feature compared to other games out there. Eliminating self combos was the point.

TJSolo wrote...
The modifers are still overpowered, brittle + assassinate = 40k+ damage.

The difference being that you have to spec into it, you have to set it up, you have to have certain characters present. Still overpowered, but the effort to return ratio is much more balanced than the CoC/Stonefist tomfoolery from DA:O/

TJSolo wrote...
The synergy is the same magic and willpower are just as important to a non-blood mage in DAO as it is in DAO. However, the willpower reqs for gear is limits the synergy of magic and constitution for a blood mage in DA2.

Choosing between better gear and more health isn't depth and complexity in the old school sense?

TJSolo wrote...
Not different types, just certain bosses. The majority of both games would be beating melee dudes, archers, and mages in the normal fashion.

There's normal mage, blood mage, assassin, rage demons (**** THOSE GUYS I HATE THEM SO MUCH), numerous others. There are definitely more enemy archetypes in DA2, man, this is just a objective fact.

TJSolo wrote...
Too bad there is fewer runes.

Are there? I thought there was roughly the same amount, they just got rid of "novice," "journeyman," and whatnot. I will happily eat this if I'm wrong.

TJSolo wrote...

Here is a list of your "complex" quests in DA2. http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II) Funny thing is there is a rather large number of quests that have Hawke finding trash around Kirkwall and magically knowing who that trash belongs to and where they are.

Hey, I didn't say they were brilliant! I just said they were overall better. DA:O basically has the worst sidequests in any game ever Keep in mind, though, this list takes a different approach than I do to what a sidequest is. Companion quests are sidequests, in my opinion, for example. My definition of a sidequest is any optional quest. YMMV.

Ronin2006 wrote...
Further, as there are many people posting
who seem determined to say things like "this game sux" and bring it down
with baseless accusations, there are just as many people making
baseless defences of the game saying that it is 'awesome' without any
real merits either.

I would argue that positive opinions are more forgiveable to express poorly than negative ones, as the intent is rarely to ruin somebody else's day, insult them, or accuse them of selling their souls and consorting with demons. But this is just me being a nice person

Of course, I'd prefer EVERYONE to express themselves well, but I think that "I LOVED IT" is generally "better" than spewing poison, even if neither is useful.

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 19 mars 2011 - 01:51 .

[Pyrate_d]

ME was a shooter with poor shooting. ME2 gave it good shooting.

DAO was a good RPG. DA2 removed most of the elements that made it a good RPG.

Just my opinion.

[AkiKishi]

Because it packs all the things that I loathe about certain designs and packs them all into one handly little package.
I've played games with all the flaws DA2 has, but never in the same game.

[Persephone]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Because it packs all the things that I loathe about certain designs and packs them all into one handly little package.
I've played games with all the flaws DA2 has, but never in the same game.

Play Gothic IV....

[Drogo45]

There are haters - they are the Loud and Stupid. Ignore them.

There are thoughtful people who have solid ideas to better the franchise.

And there are folks, like me, who love this game and believe it is the best in the series so far.

[randName]

For me its partly due to DA2 being a rushed, fairly shoddy game in some regards, caves, storyline bugs, balance, many of the fights are badly planned, some are not, cheap solutions in many areas leaving the world to feel empty and half baked; But its mainly that BW decided that they could ignore what happened in DA:O; and suddenly DA2 is also destroying what you did in DA:O; ruining both games for me.

EDIT: I kind of can enjoy DA2 on its own, many of the fights are fine, and many of the quests and companion stories are decent or in fact really good; but the lack of continuity of my experience from DA:O Vanilla, and the, for me at least, badly written main story will always make this a supbar game for me.

@Drogo45: Ad Hominem attacks are your forte apparently.

Modifié par randName, 19 mars 2011 - 02:33 .