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Why is there some Much hate for DA2?


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#176
Ahisgewaya

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Phaelducan wrote...

Lots of good games out there. Heck if you are that angry about it, go buy a cheap copy of Ninja Gaiden II. That will cure you of any video game rage you have once and for all.


I'm here because I hope that things haven't gotten to that point yet. Some of the old school people still work at Bioware and I hope that they are listening and don't let EA turn them into a soulless corporate automaton.
There are indeed many good games out there, I like Red Dead Redemption quite a bit for example. I played Ninja Gaiden when I was a kid, show you how old I am. lol

I just get really frustrated and angry because it seems like a lot of us older gamers are being left out in the cold, and when we find a game that has all the qualities of the things we grew up loving (Dragon Age) we think "Alright! Now the good things are back! There still are games like this! I can look forward to this series!". Then the second installment of the series does not have what we loved about the first one (the things that reminded us of the games of old, like Torment and Baldur's Gate). But we still bought it because we though "Well, how different can it be? It's the sequel!" 

And then we find out that it was turned into something else, and only pretended to be what we loved in order to draw us in and take our money.

Which brings me to why I have so much anger about it, because I feel like I was seen as a commodity instead of a person. Which is definately something to get so worked up about. I'm also tired of big companies buying up and ruining the things I used to love.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 19 mars 2011 - 08:20 .


#177
TJSolo

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InHarmsWay wrote...

Mass Effect 2 had the exact same rage reactions. I still remember the whole "ZOMG Bioware has killed the Mass Effect series!" threads that popped all over the place. Now look at it now. If I recall it has broken the record for most GotY awards.


I thought the game that was best received and record breaking in number of places it was GoTY and not just (insert genre)GOTY was Red Dead Redemtion.

You should take you time and read the articles there is a suprising number that cite(not belittling) fan outcry, the retconning, action pacing as being issues of them, yet it won GOTY from those places.
Getting RPG GOTY in 2010 with contenders like FFXIII, Fable 3 and Obisdian's copy&paste
FO is like winning first place in an ugly dog competition.

Modifié par TJSolo, 19 mars 2011 - 08:31 .


#178
CitizenSnips

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TJSolo wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

Mass Effect 2 had the exact same rage reactions. I still remember the whole "ZOMG Bioware has killed the Mass Effect series!" threads that popped all over the place. Now look at it now. If I recall it has broken the record for most GotY awards.


I thought the game that was best received and record breaking in number of places it was GoTY and not just (insert genre)GOTY was Red Dead Redemtion.

You should take you time and read the articles there is a suprising number that cite(not belittling) fan outcry, the retconning, action pacing as being issues of them, yet it won GOTY from those places.
Getting RPG GOTY in
2010 with contenders like FFXIII, Fable 3 and Obisdian's copy&paste
FO is like winning first place at the special olympics.


ME2 is one of the highest rated games of the last decade by both critics and fans. Your rage doesn't change that.

#179
Eclectic Wizard

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Nerd Rage is new and cool.

#180
Eclectic Wizard

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Nerd Rage is new and cool !!!!

#181
Caralampio

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I'm one of the haters. I've been playing it and thinking about it. I think the fundamental mistake of Bioware was to open the game with a fight. Now they thought, "we'll get the player right into action and he/she'll be delighted!" But they weren't counting on a substantial percentage of players that would not like the new combat system at all.

So while some players began the game, and when they saw Hawke make his first anime-ish attack they went, "KOOOL!!!!" the rest of us went, "What!?!?!?" 

I think this awful experience (for those of us not liking anime combat, or hack'n'slash, whatever term you prefer) predisposed us against everything in the game, even things that maybe we would have liked, or not hated so much, in other circumstances. 

#182
bEVEsthda

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Eclectic Wizard wrote...

Nerd Rage is new and cool !!!!


...And internet is full of posters like this. Says a lot about the miserable state of most of humanity. Not until internet made us exposed to them all,..   - did we understand so many strange things happening.

#183
Oliver Sudden

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The worst thing about this thread is the continued watering down of the word hate. Soon it won't mean anything at all.

#184
Eclectic Wizard

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Look man we have here many nerd raging maniacs posting hate thread after hate thread, if you guys dislike it so much then go find a new game or get a life.

#185
bEVEsthda

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Caralampio wrote...

I'm one of the haters. I've been playing it and thinking about it. I think the fundamental mistake of Bioware was to open the game with a fight. Now they thought, "we'll get the player right into action and he/she'll be delighted!" But they weren't counting on a substantial percentage of players that would not like the new combat system at all.

So while some players began the game, and when they saw Hawke make his first anime-ish attack they went, "KOOOL!!!!" the rest of us went, "What!?!?!?" 

I think this awful experience (for those of us not liking anime combat, or hack'n'slash, whatever term you prefer) predisposed us against everything in the game, even things that maybe we would have liked, or not hated so much, in other circumstances. 


I so agree. The start of the game pushed my every nerd-rage button. When Flemeth appeared in her Japanese horned or flamed hairdo and feathers, that was the last straw and things really snapped.

#186
Phaelducan

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Ahisgewaya, I'm an older gamer as well, and I think there is plenty of room in the gaming industry for change and growth as well as throw-backs. If there is one thing the industry is terrified of... it's stagnation. The JRPG genre is a great example of this. If it wasn't for the DS and PSP it would be on death's door. Gamers DON'T want the same old thing... even if a few of us love old-school RPG's, the developers have to adapt and change or face having their doors shut down.

Yeah, there were some great CRPG games of old, but there are great new RPG's as well.... as long as you are willing to embrace change instead of hating it.

This is cheap advice, but if it pisses you off this much maybe some perspective is in order. Look at DA2 as just another game in a bigger genre. Take the good with the bad, enjoy what you can with it, then go play a different (better) RPG. DA2 is certainly not the greatest thing out there this year, but there is some pretty cool stuff in it, and if you let go of the rage, it's actually pretty fun imho.

But... if it's not possible not to hate it for not being what you wanted... lots of great games later on this year. Deus Ex, ME3 (although maybe that won't help you, heh), Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur (maybe 2012, not sure), Final Fantasy XIII part 2 the apology, another Assassin's Creed... etc.

I just can't see the value in being so mad about a game that it takes up more time than it clearly already wasted of your life. "Indiana... let it go."

#187
DTKT

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Eclectic Wizard wrote...

Look man we have here many nerd raging maniacs posting hate thread after hate thread, if you guys dislike it so much then go find a new game or get a life.


And we had many very very good constructive threads about how DAII failed in many ways. :)

#188
TJSolo

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mushoops86anjyl wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

Mass Effect 2 had the exact same rage reactions. I still remember the whole "ZOMG Bioware has killed the Mass Effect series!" threads that popped all over the place. Now look at it now. If I recall it has broken the record for most GotY awards.


I thought the game that was best received and record breaking in number of places it was GoTY and not just (insert genre)GOTY was Red Dead Redemtion.

You should take you time and read the articles there is a suprising number that cite(not belittling) fan outcry, the retconning, action pacing as being issues of them, yet it won GOTY from those places.
Getting RPG GOTY in
2010 with contenders like FFXIII, Fable 3 and Obisdian's copy&paste
FO is like winning first place at the special olympics.


ME2 is one of the highest rated games of the last decade by both critics and fans. Your rage doesn't change that.


My perception of the game that won the most GOTY awards in 2010 ws RDR, so I disagreed with that posters count.
The RPG GOTY contenders were ME2, FO:NV, FFXIII, and Fable 3, true? yes. ME2 wins out as RPG GOTY most of the time.
I did not like the game as an RPG or as a sequel to ME1. The ratings it has earned from critics and fans have nothing to do with that. The opinions of those critics and fans are right for them and my opinion is right for me.

#189
Eclectic Wizard

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Yeah it`s just pathetic all the old school CRPGers need to except that RPG`s are different now, Bioware have been focusing on console ever since KOTOR so DAO was actually the exception to the rule.

The problem is that console games for the most part sell much more than PC thus why every developer wants a piece of the action.

#190
bEVEsthda

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Phaelducan wrote...
.....
Lots of good games out there.


That you would think so, entirely illuminates your thoughts and sentiments. Maybe you will understand more, if I tell you that I certainly don't think so?

And why we're here should be obvious, really, shouldn't it? Providing feedback.

...And Ninja Gaiden 2 was a lot easier than Ninja Gaiden...

#191
bEVEsthda

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Eclectic Wizard wrote...

Yeah it`s just pathetic all the old school CRPGers need to except that RPG`s are different now, Bioware have been focusing on console ever since KOTOR so DAO was actually the exception to the rule.

The problem is that console games for the most part sell much more than PC thus why every developer wants a piece of the action.


( a big improvement, btw)

Well, I don't think they need to accept anything, actually. There are many solutions...
Otherwise you are correct. But one can make the case that it's not really originally driven by market forces, but rather self-fulfilling strategies. That's another and long discussion though.

#192
Ahisgewaya

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Phaelducan wrote...

Ahisgewaya, I'm an older gamer as well, and I think there is plenty of room in the gaming industry for change and growth as well as throw-backs. If there is one thing the industry is terrified of... it's stagnation. The JRPG genre is a great example of this. If it wasn't for the DS and PSP it would be on death's door. Gamers DON'T want the same old thing... even if a few of us love old-school RPG's, the developers have to adapt and change or face having their doors shut down.

Yeah, there were some great CRPG games of old, but there are great new RPG's as well.... as long as you are willing to embrace change instead of hating it.

This is cheap advice, but if it pisses you off this much maybe some perspective is in order. Look at DA2 as just another game in a bigger genre. Take the good with the bad, enjoy what you can with it, then go play a different (better) RPG. DA2 is certainly not the greatest thing out there this year, but there is some pretty cool stuff in it, and if you let go of the rage, it's actually pretty fun imho.

But... if it's not possible not to hate it for not being what you wanted... lots of great games later on this year. Deus Ex, ME3 (although maybe that won't help you, heh), Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur (maybe 2012, not sure), Final Fantasy XIII part 2 the apology, another Assassin's Creed... etc.

I just can't see the value in being so mad about a game that it takes up more time than it clearly already wasted of your life. "Indiana... let it go."


It's not so much the game I'm mad at, it's the principle of the thing. I am looking forward to Skyrim and the next Assassin's Creed. I'm mainly here on this forum to try to talk some sense into Bioware, hoping that someone from the company will read it. I did like some things with Dragon Age 2 also, but I just can't help thinking "if they did this to Dragon Age Origins, just imagine how bad Dragon Age 3 will be!". 

I also tend to overreact to things. Especially if things build up. I was worried about this sort of thing when I heard that EA bought Bioware. Just as I freaked out when Disney bought Marvel. lol

SO some of this is also me saying "You greedy grubby businessmen keep your dirty mits off of my childhood!!!"

#193
Eclectic Wizard

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^ Talking sense in too Bioware, how very big headed of you. Man some of you guys really are insane.

You think one poster on a board is going to change anything, the game has had great reviews on the whole, from many respected reviewers.

#194
Phaelducan

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bEVE.... your post style is incredibly snide and negative. Perhaps that has a correlation with your general attitude about gaming.

As a point of reference... there ARE lots of great games out there. Lots of shovelware too, but there is at least a couple dozen games a year (on various consoles) that are a blast to play. If you don't think so, you are probably a genre elitist and nothing you say should be taken outside of that context.

Providing feedback? Incessantly saying the game sucks, EA sucks, Bioware sucks, ad nauseum isn't providing feedback, it's called (rhymes with itching).

Itagaki is on record saying that NG2 was harder. I beat both, I agree with him. As do a number of ranking websites ( do a search if you want). Not that it matters, but you are arguing just to argue.

Seriously, why all the negative energy? Relax, play a different game... maybe Mario Galaxy 2 or something. It's fun but not stressful.

#195
TJSolo

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Eclectic Wizard wrote...

Yeah it`s just pathetic all the old school CRPGers need to except that RPG`s are different now, Bioware have been focusing on console ever since KOTOR so DAO was actually the exception to the rule.

The problem is that console games for the most part sell much more than PC thus why every developer wants a piece of the action.


Yeah using a stereotype to help you form an arguement always works out but at least try to hold out until someone says they are an old school cRPG player or you have evidence they are an old school player. Right now it looks like you are firing into the dark just hoping to hit something.

Modifié par TJSolo, 19 mars 2011 - 09:00 .


#196
Phaelducan

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I get it Ahisgewaya, no one wants their stuff messed with. I hated Final Fantasy 7 because it took away all the distinction from the characters, but I was much much younger then, and now I figure it's just not that important in the grand scheme of things.

I have a Netbook with both the Black Isle Fallout games, both Baldur's Gates, Torment, and a few others (on sale from GoG for like 4 bucks each too!) so there is almost an opportunity to dive into nostalgia. Dragon Age 2, on the other hand, was a good example of how a company can really push the envelope as far as action and excitement... SOTA graphics and sound.. etc etc. It's a different experience. I wouldn't call it better or worse, just different. I thought it was pretty cool flinging around that ridiculous sword and splattering darkspawn everywhere. Maybe over the top (maybe?), and not something I would want every game to emulate... but worth 60 bucks and a few dozen hours of my time.

Onwards and upwards though, hopefully DA3 will correct some of the less desirable parts of 2... but I still wouldn't call 2 a "bad" game.

#197
bEVEsthda

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Phaelducan wrote...

bEVE.... your post style is incredibly snide and negative. Perhaps that has a correlation with your general attitude about gaming.

As a point of reference... there ARE lots of great games out there. Lots of shovelware too, but there is at least a couple dozen games a year (on various consoles) that are a blast to play. If you don't think so, you are probably a genre elitist and nothing you say should be taken outside of that context.

Providing feedback? Incessantly saying the game sucks, EA sucks, Bioware sucks, ad nauseum isn't providing feedback, it's called (rhymes with itching).

Itagaki is on record saying that NG2 was harder. I beat both, I agree with him. As do a number of ranking websites ( do a search if you want). Not that it matters, but you are arguing just to argue.

Seriously, why all the negative energy? Relax, play a different game... maybe Mario Galaxy 2 or something. It's fun but not stressful.


The topic of this particular thread is "Why is there so Much hate for DA2"
That's the topic I'm posting on, and that's the question I try to answer.
I'm perfectly relaxed and calm, looking at this issue as objectively as I can. If that is "snide" (chuckles)... It's your posts which are both out of line (somewhat) and negative.

#198
Phaelducan

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bEVEsthda wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

bEVE.... your post style is incredibly snide and negative. Perhaps that has a correlation with your general attitude about gaming.

As a point of reference... there ARE lots of great games out there. Lots of shovelware too, but there is at least a couple dozen games a year (on various consoles) that are a blast to play. If you don't think so, you are probably a genre elitist and nothing you say should be taken outside of that context.

Providing feedback? Incessantly saying the game sucks, EA sucks, Bioware sucks, ad nauseum isn't providing feedback, it's called (rhymes with itching).

Itagaki is on record saying that NG2 was harder. I beat both, I agree with him. As do a number of ranking websites ( do a search if you want). Not that it matters, but you are arguing just to argue.

Seriously, why all the negative energy? Relax, play a different game... maybe Mario Galaxy 2 or something. It's fun but not stressful.


The topic of this particular thread is "Why is there so Much hate for DA2"
That's the topic I'm posting on, and that's the question I try to answer.
I'm perfectly relaxed and calm, looking at this issue as objectively as I can. If that is "snide" (chuckles)... It's your posts which are both out of line (somewhat) and negative.


So because the thread asks why there is so much negativity, might as well be as obnoxious as possible? How is that productive? Look, it's clear you don't like the game, and you stated your reasons. Counter-arguments have been made as well. Move along. 

How are my posts out of line? I stated that your posts have a certain tone to them, and then postulated that perhaps that has a correlation with your general attitudes about gaming. Given the topic of the thread, that's about as pertinent as it gets. 

Not thinking there are good games out there? Come on man, that's as negative as it gets. That's one step removed from listening to the Cure and self-harm seminars.

#199
bEVEsthda

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Phaelducan wrote...

So because the thread asks why there is so much negativity, might as well be as obnoxious as possible? How is that productive? Look, it's clear you don't like the game, and you stated your reasons. Counter-arguments have been made as well. Move along. 

How are my posts out of line? I stated that your posts have a certain tone to them, and then postulated that perhaps that has a correlation with your general attitudes about gaming. Given the topic of the thread, that's about as pertinent as it gets. 

Not thinking there are good games out there? Come on man, that's as negative as it gets. That's one step removed from listening to the Cure and self-harm seminars.


Look, why don't you go back and read my posts here, instead?
Instead of trying to make both mine and your own arguments? Instead of only all this "- go away", "- stop complaining", "- do something else".

#200
ragnaven

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Well hatred, much like love is a many layer cake. Some people will hate for reasons others won't, but lets look at some of the reasons people may hate DA2.

Scope: not the mouth wash, but the scope of the game. DA:O covered the whole of a country, while DA2 covers just one city, all the while Codex entries are telling us about the rest of Thedas.For some this is a bit of a tease, they want to see more of the world, experience more than one city. For the explorers at heart the one city only focus of the game, and the reused maps is a let down.

Story: DA:O was the classic three acts heroes journey story. Act1 the origin introduces our charater the warden in his/her own world. Act2 he/she is force out of his world into the world of the grey wardens. Act 3 he/she kills the arch demon. DA:A follows much the same pattern but with an established hero. He comes to be a commander, is forced to rebuild the wardens, then ends the game defeating the mother.

The story in DA2 tries to be the same but it skips the important act 1 introduction to Hawke, we instead enter his life in a transitional state. He is going through the door form his world to the world of kirkwall and his path to being a champion. From a writing stand point this is a bad move, character driven stories like Hawkes need to first invest us in the character. If it was a book I'd of suggested it start back in Lothering, the very eve of the towns fall. Giving us just a bit more of a veiw into Hawkes life as he and his family sit by the fire, everything they owned packed, while Carver talks about Ostagar. Then the darkspawn come and force them to leave everything behind.

As a story that is more satisfying and it invests the player/reader more into the life of Hawke.

Gameplay: Now this one is really more about looks than it is about playing from what I feel and I have read. The players that hate DA2 dislike the studden, everybody was kung fu fighting reduex of the game. Ferelden was established as a rather young, barbaric, wild country in the first game, yet somehow in DA2 mage and rogue Hawke have learned Kung Fu, and the people are exploding. Now yes, we can chalk this up to Varric trying to make the story more interesting but it still is a large break from the simi realistic first game.

Art: Once again we see a vast change from the first game, once again we can blaim it on being Varric's veiw of the world. While humans might see elves as a slightly skinnier version of themselves with pointy ears, a dwarf who is broader and more compactly built than a human might see elves differently. Still some prefer the older game.

The party changes: Now this one, after much thought is one that both made sense and it didn't On the one hand being able to outfit your party was the best part of ME and DA:O to many players, while it was a hassel to others. The conversations in camp were quickly mined out of talking options, while the ones in kirkwall were spaced out.

This is due to the set up of the games, camping you have nothing to do at night but talk, while in a city when visiting people most people expect you to have a reason to stop by. Still some people want to be able to outfit their team, and to talk whenever. There is a middle ground here, and that is the fact that one size don't fit all.

Simply put if you want to do the set armor party, then give them armor that is just for each party member and then armor that is for Hawke alone. It will reflect that everyone in the party is not the same, it will also allow people to feel like the party isn't wearing the same thing for years. I personally wouldn't have minded the system if each upgrade changed something about how they dressed. If Isabella's final armor upgrade had put a big belt of golden plates around his middrift and maybe covered her arm with some kind of tribal pattern tooled studed leathe wrap. Something to show that each upgrade acutally upgraded.

The weapon system: For me this was the big killer to the game, dual weild, weapon and shield etc weapons. I prefered being able to choose what weapons I dual weilded, most people do. Forcing daggers only down rogues throats while excluding warriors from dual weild shows biowares sudden spilt from the older game style. What do I mean? Well look at DA:O and ME1 both games let you use any weapon you wanted, you needed training to be good. But, you could be like a real person and pick up and use anything out there in combat.

DA2, ME2, and SWToR are all, this is your class, this is your weapons, deal with it or sod off.

That to me is the layers of the issues people have with DA2, and the trend in recent bioware games.

Modifié par ragnaven, 19 mars 2011 - 09:42 .