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[Soul Cool]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Why indeed? Games were better before every character had to be 100% voiced.

So, the decline of the quality of games is, in some part, caused by the implementation of full voice acting?

Just an observation. Corollation is not causation.

But your claim was that the quality of games HAS declined since the implementation of full voice acting in such a way as to imply that full voice acting was in some part responsible. Good to know you weren't implying that full voice acting was a direct cause of a supposed decline in the quality of video games.

Modifié par Soul Cool, 20 mars 2011 - 12:36 .

[EmsaFallkin]

@Soul Cool, To some part I would have to agree. VO's do have huge costs to it and take time, and then there is the extra pit fall of customer opinions, where there will always be arguments about which VO's are good and which are bad. Taking time and money away from a game with deadlines and budgets, it does to some part negatively affect the end product.
On the other hand if the time and the money was earmarked for VO's by the publisher, and couldn't have been used for anything else anyways, then that argument would fail of course.

@DieHigh, I already commented on that above you. I do not feel a disconnect between the "silent" protagonist and the characters around with VO's.

Modifié par EmsaFallkin, 20 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[mesmerizedish]

Soul Cool wrote...

But your claim was that the quality of games HAS declined since the implementation of full voice acting in such a way as to imply that full voice acting was in some part responsible. Good to know you weren't implying that.

Oh, I was implying that. I wouldn't say it's categorically true, though.

[EDIT] Allow me to clarify. I think that BGII's dialogue system does more to make BGII a great game than DAII's dialogue system does to make DAII a great game. I love both games, and I love both games' dialogue. I think that one way does more to elevate a game than the other, though. DAII has many more things going for it than it's dialogue, however. It's superior to BGII on a lot of levels. But the need to give audible voice to every line has been more of a hindrance to game writing than it's been a help to immersion or coolness or whatever VO is supposed to accomplish.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 20 mars 2011 - 12:40 .

[ransompendragon]

I agree with the OP and ishmael and others. I always "heard" my responses in DAO, my warden(s) always had their own voice. That doesn't mean I hate voice acting, either. If it adds to the experience, great.

If paying for voice acting takes money from, I don't know, level design? (One cave is enough, right?) then maybe it does take away more than it adds.

The bigger thing is that the "mute warden" is one of many swipes at DAO used to prop up DA2. If the new game can stand on its own merits--as so many stridently shout (oh, I know, they are just forum posts, nobody is REALLY shouting) -- why do we have to bash DAO? (The other argument being, of course, that "it's not DAO, it is its own game, get over it...")

Talk about speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Only in your imagination of course.

[DieHigh2012]

EmsaFallkin wrote...

@Veex, Ah, but that's a valid opinion, I'm not disturbed by you thinking that. I didn't feel that disconnect, and neither would I have cared if there were no VO's at all in DAO. Although I like it just fine as it is

But saying that just because there is no audible voice there can be no speech is just sad.

Who is saying that? There was plenty of speech in DAO, just nothing audible from the warden.

[Soul Cool]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

But your claim was that the quality of games HAS declined since the implementation of full voice acting in such a way as to imply that full voice acting was in some part responsible. Good to know you weren't implying that.

Oh, I was implying that. I wouldn't say it's categorically true, though.

Just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't after being so hot on agreeing with that particular bit of what you were saying. I do rather like voice-acting, it makes the conversation and character interactions seem more natural. I'm more for having that feeling of believability than I am of being in total control of a character.

EmsaFallkin wrote...

@Soul Cool, To some part I would have
to agree. VO's do have huge costs to it and take time, and then there
is the extra pit fall of customer opinions, where there will always be
arguments about which VO's are good and which are bad. Taking time and
money away from a game with deadlines and budgets, it does to some part
negatively affect the end product.
On the other hand if the time and
the money was earmarked for VO's by the publisher, and couldn't have
been used for anything else anyways, then that argument would fail of
course.

Depends on factors that we aren't aware of. No real reason in talking about it when we can't even begin to predict what effect voice acting has on the consumer reaction.

Modifié par Soul Cool, 20 mars 2011 - 12:40 .

[DieHigh2012]

EmsaFallkin wrote...

@Soul Cool, To some part I would have to agree. VO's do have huge costs to it and take time, and then there is the extra pit fall of customer opinions, where there will always be arguments about which VO's are good and which are bad. Taking time and money away from a game with deadlines and budgets, it does to some part negatively affect the end product.
On the other hand if the time and the money was earmarked for VO's by the publisher, and couldn't have been used for anything else anyways, then that argument would fail of course.

@DieHigh, I already commented on that above you. I do not feel a disconnect between the "silent" protagonist and the characters around with VO's.

I do, see how it's just an opinion?

[Meltemph]

Blastback wrote...

I the Warden didn't speak, then none of the characters would respond to the dialoge options you select. So the Warden does speak. We just can't hear it.

So, the term mute is wrong. Now the compliants about the unvoiced protagonist are fine. I don' agree, but they are valid opinions. But the termonolgy is wrong.

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/mute

–adjective1.silent; refraining from speech or utterance.2.not emitting or having sound of any kind.3.incapable of speech; dumb.4.(of letters) silent; not pronounced.5.Law . (of a person who has been arraigned) making no plea orgiving an irrelevant response when arraigned, or refusing tostand trial (used chiefly in the phrase to stand mute ).6.Fox Hunting . (of a hound) hunting a line without givingtongue or cry.

Bolded is what definition people are refering to.  The termonology is fine, people are just trying to nit pick instead of actually having a discussion.

[mesmerizedish]

Soul Cool wrote...

Just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't after being so hot on agreeing with that particular bit of what you were saying. I do rather like voice-acting, it makes the conversation and character interactions seem more natural. I'm more for having that feeling of believability than I am of being in total control of a character.

Allow me to clarify. I think that BGII's dialogue system does more to make BGII a great game than DAII's dialogue system does to make DAII a great game. I love both games, and I love both games' dialogue. I think that one way does more to elevate a game than the other, though. DAII has many more things going for it than it's dialogue, however. It's superior to BGII on a lot of levels. But the need to give audible voice to every line has been more of a hindrance to game writing than it's been a help to immersion or coolness or whatever VO is supposed to accomplish.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 20 mars 2011 - 12:51 .

[EmsaFallkin]

@DieHigh, Does it really matter then? You agree that the warden has speech which means he communicates with the world around him... And isn't that all that's needed?

[sonsonthebia07]

Yes.
Yes.
Ready.
Yeeeeup, the waiting around part is...awesome.
Let's go.
Yeeeeup, the waiting around part is...awesome.

Oh wait, that's Alistair. But what if you don't agree with any of the preset voices for your Origins character? Do you just turn the voices sound off and do everything text based?

[Soul Cool]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

Just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't after being so hot on agreeing with that particular bit of what you were saying. I do rather like voice-acting, it makes the conversation and character interactions seem more natural. I'm more for having that feeling of believability than I am of being in total control of a character.

Allow me to clarify. I think that BGII's dialogue system does more to
make BGII a great game than DAII's dialogue system does to make DAII a
great game. I love both games, and I love both games' dialogue. I think
that one way does more to elevate a game than the other, though. DAII
has many more things going for it than it's dialogue, however. It's
superior to BGII on a lot of levels. But the need to give audible voice
to every line has been more of a hindrance to game writing than it's
been a help to immersion or coolness or whatever VO is supposed to
accomplish.

Hm. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Not saying that I don't agree with you on some parts, but I really feel that the voice acting is worth it overall. (Just in my opinion.)

[Blastback]

Meltemph wrote...

Blastback wrote...

I the Warden didn't speak, then none of the characters would respond to the dialoge options you select. So the Warden does speak. We just can't hear it.

So, the term mute is wrong. Now the compliants about the unvoiced protagonist are fine. I don' agree, but they are valid opinions. But the termonolgy is wrong.

http://dictionary.re...com/browse/mute

–adjective1.silent; refraining from speech or utterance.2.not emitting or having sound of any kind.3.incapable of speech; dumb.4.(of letters) silent; not pronounced.5.Law . (of a person who has been arraigned) making no plea orgiving an irrelevant response when arraigned, or refusing tostand trial (used chiefly in the phrase to stand mute ).6.Fox Hunting . (of a hound) hunting a line without givingtongue or cry.

Bolded is what definition people are refering to.  The termonology is fine, people are just trying to nit pick instead of actually having a discussion.

No because the Warden does emit sound.  Not in conversations, but sounds are emited.  So that definition doesn't work:P

I'm nitpicking here myself, but the use of "mute" bugs me.  If you prefer the voiced PC, fine great!  I just wish a diffrent word or term was used by the critics of the unvoiced PC.

[mesmerizedish]

Soul Cool wrote...

Hm. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Not saying that I don't agree with you on some parts, but I really feel that the voice acting is worth it overall. (Just in my opinion.)

I should say again, that I do like the VO, and, if my only experiences were Origins and DAII, I prefer the voiced protagonist. But Mass Effect did the voiced PC horribly, and the Inifinity Engine games did (relatively) voiceless characters beautifully. There are good and bad examples on both ends of the spectrum. And I do think that silent characters are in the past, and I'm not going to petition for a return to it.

[Meltemph]

No because the Warden does emit sound. Not in conversations, but sounds are emited. So that definition doesn't work

Have you been missing the context of what people are talking about when they say mute? They are not talking about the combat of the game, they are talking about the dialog.

I'm nitpicking here myself, but the use of "mute" bugs me. If you prefer the voiced PC, fine great! I just wish a diffrent word or term was used by the critics of the unvoiced PC.

Then just say I dont like it no need to make crap up.

If you prefer the voiced PC, fine great!

This leads me to believe you are not really reading the posts and are just trying to voice a pet peeve?

[EmsaFallkin]

Just to make it clear, I said it in my first post in this thread and I'll say it again. I don't hate VO's. I even like them. And I like non-VO games as well. Tey lend themselves to different kinds of gaming. For me an all VO cast is great for a cinematic game where you're following a predefined character. Hawke is a good example. And non-VO is great when you want a more "this is my character" feeling. The Warden is a good example where I got that feeling.

So I don't hate VO's, I like it. It's just not the only thing I like.

[DieHigh2012]

EmsaFallkin wrote...

@DieHigh, Does it really matter then? You agree that the warden has speech which means he communicates with the world around him... And isn't that all that's needed?

Not when everyone eles can open there mouth and *gasp* actually make sounds. While my warrden just stands there looking stupid.

This is a vidogame not a book. There are many more sences involed in the former. Making it so one character (the main character at that) is unable to speak (out loud) is at the very lest nunatural. Makes something feel off as it doesn't fit in with the rest of the DA universe.

That being said, I'm not saying I had that big a problem with the DAO system, but the DA2 system makes more sence.

[Blastback]

Meltemph wrote...

No because the Warden does emit sound. Not in conversations, but sounds are emited. So that definition doesn't work

Have you been missing the context of what people are talking about when they say mute? They are not talking about the combat of the game, they are talking about the dialog.

I'm nitpicking here myself, but the use of "mute" bugs me. If you prefer the voiced PC, fine great! I just wish a diffrent word or term was used by the critics of the unvoiced PC.

Then just say I dont like it no need to make crap up.

If you prefer the voiced PC, fine great!

This leads me to believe you are not really reading the posts and are just trying to voice a pet peeve?

With the last couple posts, yeah, pretty much.    Sorry I wasn't more clear about that.

On topic:  Thus far, I enjoy the silent PC more than voiced ones.  It gives me a greater feeling of control.  I like using my imagination to "hear" my character that's part of what I consider to be the cRPG experiance.  Where what goes on in your head is as much a part of the game as what is on screen.  Or comming from the speakers.

[Meltemph]

Just to make it clear, I said it in my first post in this thread and I'll say it again. I don't hate VO's. I even like them. And I like non-VO games as well. Tey lend themselves to different kinds of gaming. For me an all VO cast is great for a cinematic game where you're following a predefined character. Hawke is a good example. And non-VO is great when you want a more "this is my character" feeling. The Warden is a good example where I got that feeling.

So I don't hate VO's, I like it. It's just not the only thing I like.

Sounds to me though that you like VO's more then you don't though. Because you liked DAO well enough it seems, despite the fact that everyone in the game besides your warden had a VO. VO's can enhance story telling in a more audio way in the same way that a movie tells a story different then a book, but imo, I would rather read a book more often then not.

That said I personally don't like it when companies make bookmovies(Partial VO's). To me story/plot suffers when they try and do this. And I honestly find it strange, personally, that people who prefer silent VO's like games with VO at all since it restricts a hell of a lot more then just your protagonist silent.

[TJSolo]

Have you been missing the context of what people are talking about when they say mute? They are not talking about the combat of the game, they are talking about the dialog.

Deylar started this thread because of the voiced combat reactions to him exclude the Warden from being a definitive mute despite the dialogue scenes.

Modifié par TJSolo, 20 mars 2011 - 01:05 .

[Blastback]

TJSolo wrote...

Have you been missing the context of what people are talking about when they say mute? They are not talking about the combat of the game, they are talking about the dialog.

Deylar started this thread because of the voiced reactions to him exclude the Warden from being a definitive mute despite the dialogue scenes to him.

Validation!

[EmsaFallkin]

@Meltemph, Haha, but currently I'm playing through BG1+2 because I didn't like DA2. But DA2's voices wasn't part of why I didn't like it though.

But I'm having a grand time with Baldur's Gate and plan to play Planescape: Torment after that. All of whom are non-VO games and some of the best cRPGS ever made

[DieHigh2012]

TJSolo wrote...

Have you been missing the context of what people are talking about when they say mute? They are not talking about the combat of the game, they are talking about the dialog.

Deylar started this thread because of the voiced reactions to him exclude the Warden from being a definitive mute despite the dialogue scenes to him.

So you must have skipped the entire 5 or so pages of the evolving discussion...

[Meltemph]

Deylar started this thread because of the voiced reactions to him exclude the Warden from being a definitive mute despite the dialogue scenes to him.

Yes, but that conversation stopped 3 pages back and its been about the VO vs non VO for the lst 3 or so pages, when he responded. Besides, did that many people take the main point seriously? I thought it was just an excuse to talk about VO's and silent protagonists?

[TJSolo]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Have you been missing the context of what people are talking about when they say mute? They are not talking about the combat of the game, they are talking about the dialog.

Deylar started this thread because of the voiced reactions to him exclude the Warden from being a definitive mute despite the dialogue scenes to him.

So you must have skipped the entire 5 or so pages of the evolving discussion...

I believe I commented on the first page that the combat reactions are ignored by the folks hellbent on making the claim "The Warden was mute."  Your posts and my current responses to you support my first comment in this thread. 

This is a thread, not a living creature. The starting topic can always be referred to no matter what the current flow of a thread is.

Modifié par TJSolo, 20 mars 2011 - 01:16 .