209 réponses à ce sujet

[Suron]

ok..let's forget whether it was right, wrong, justified, or not.

When you first meet Anders he says that Justice is a part of him.  And was changed due to Anders hatred for the injustice mages go through into Vengeance.

Then he states that Vengeance is a part of him and that Vengeance's thoughts "are his own."  And no scholar could tell you where Anders ends and Justice begins....

With that...Do you think Anders decision to nuke the Chantry and kill all those innocents was really his own doing...or the fault of (or at least influence of) Justice turned Vengeance?

Do you think Anders would have done it even if Justice/Vengeance wasn't a part of him.  Or did Vengeance's twisted anger and thoughts influence Anders to make the decision to nuke the Chantry?  And if that's the case then is Anders FULLY to blame..or only partially?

Modifié par Suron, 19 mars 2011 - 08:12 .

[Shepard Lives]

Anders is the person who freaked out when I decided to raze Amaranthine.

Whatever decided to blow up the Chantry was not Anders. Character development only goes so far.

[Medhia Nox]

I think adding Justice was a total failure of Bioware. It muddies and trivializes everything this character did by adding a "patsy". People can blame a supernatural force - and they always will.

Anders:

- Took in Justice of his own accord.
- Perverted Justice into Vengeance
- Wanted mage freedom before Justice

====

I think that "Justice" is just his obsession with freeing mages at any cost. I think to add a supernatural element completely trivializes the event and makes it impossible to actually discuss.

Perhaps I'll say - "Justice and Anders" are both at fault. They're co-conspirators in a heinous act of terrorism.

[JulianoV]

Old Anders wouldn't. He is now, however, a different person, both personalities merged. It's not as much of a matter of being influenced as it is of not being there anymore to be influenced. The reasoning was perfectly suited to the new, and currently only, Anders AND Justice.

[Volourn]

I think Anders is fully to blame. People claim it wasn't the same Anders from A. that's the point. Over the eyars, Anders changed from the fun loving cat caressing mage to hatefulm bigot who took his hatred of tempalrs to the extreme. He is a would be freedom fighter who cna't see the blurry line between freedom fighter and terrorist.. kinda like the people who blow up abortion clinics murdering doctors and nurses because they view abortion a smurder and murder is wrong yet they are willing to commit it and feel fully justified.

Anders changed. He is the same Anders as Awakening. It's called character development. Afterall, i don't see people complaining that Anders is bi sexual even though there were no hints of it in A to my knowledge. Him being forced to become a Warden (which he loathes and makes it clear he does so) was just the start of him losing his fun loving aspect.

Great job, BIO.

P.S. To answer the question, yeah, I do see him feeling he should do it even without the demon. Humans need no demons to commit extremist acts.


P.S.S. There's a certain character who had a spirit in her who would never commit such an act, and would be disgusting by Ander's actions.

Modifié par Volourn, 19 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[Shazzie]

If you are Rivalmancing Anders, you get an awful lot  that you miss out on otherwise. You really need to see this...
It's like the longer we go, the less of me there is.

[Hawke the Champ]

Did anyone else kill him or let him go?

[Valcutio]

The truth is he was forced into the story to make him a more important character than what he is. He's the only healer in the game and is forced on the party in that regard as well. The bombing made no sense from either an Anders or Justice point of view. It was just bad writing. I guess he decided to kill a bunch of harmless priests instead of Meredith? Right.

Anders was a decent character in Awakenings (if not a poor replacement for Alistair). He's absolute trash in DA2.

Modifié par Valcutio, 19 mars 2011 - 09:05 .

[TJPags]

Suron wrote...

ok..let's forget whether it was right, wrong, justified, or not.

When you first meet Anders he says that Justice is a part of him.  And was changed due to Anders hatred for the injustice mages go through into Vengeance.

Then he states that Vengeance is a part of him and that Vengeance's thoughts "are his own."  And no scholar could tell you where Anders ends and Justice begins....

With that...Do you think Anders decision to nuke the Chantry and kill all those innocents was really his own doing...or the fault of (or at least influence of) Justice turned Vengeance?

Do you think Anders would have done it even if Justice/Vengeance wasn't a part of him.  Or did Vengeance's twisted anger and thoughts influence Anders to make the decision to nuke the Chantry?  And if that's the case then is Anders FULLY to blame..or only partially?

I think you answer your own question before you ask it.  Justice is Anders is Vengeance.

When he was first announced, with the indication he was harboring Justice, he was referred to on these forums as Janders.  I think that's actually an accurate assessment.

As you point out:  He tells us that Justice is a part of him.  He tells us that Vengeance is a part of him.  He tells us that Vengeance's thoughts are his own.  He tells us that no scholar can tell where one begins and the other ends.

In this sense, there is no more Anders, and there is no more Justice, not as separate personalities.  There may have briefly been a Vengeance, but again, there is no more Vengeance, not as a separate personality.

There is now Janders.  Or Vanders, if you prefer.  One personality, merged from two, which has Anders desires and Justice/Vengeance's single-mindedness.

[Siven80]

Shazzie wrote...

If you are Rivalmancing Anders, you get an awful lot  that you miss out on otherwise. You really need to see this...
It's like the longer we go, the less of me there is.

Hmm, that was interesting.

Glad i killed him.....it 

[hawat333]

Nope. Anders alone wouldn't have done it.
Justice, who never really understood the concept of death, who could never really make a difference between just and right, he was the motivator for that event.
Anders cannot be called an innocent though, he was willing to embrace Justice when he realized they can't be seperated.

[ExistsAlready]

If my Templar/Spirit Warrior Warden had been there, he would've pimp slapped some sense into both of them.

The whole thing is the fault of whoever made my Warden and his strong pimp hand vanish from the face of the earth.

[Suron]

good discussion so far. Personally I see it as both sides. He isn't FULLY to blame, but that doesn't mean he isn't accountable for it fully. Justice is Anders is Vengeance...As said.

I find it hard to believe that Anders from Awakening would resort to this. It was a definite influence from Vengeance's anger fueling his own. That in no way, however, means he deserves any pity, remorse, or forgiveness for it.

While not fully "his own" doing..he is fully responsible. Much like a clinically insane person murdering someone else. Yes it was their mental condition that lead to the act but that doesn't excuse them from responsibility or having to pay for their crime.

[lockdown51]

Anders sparked off a revolution because of a cat. In DAA he explains that he ran from the Circle so that he could have a pet cat. In between DAA and DA2, the warden makes Anders get rid of the cat, which caused Anders to throw a hissy fit and run from the Wardens. Being possessed didn't help any as Justice just festered on not having a cat like a normal person. So if you boil it down, the revolution is call because of Ser Pounce-a-lot, mass murderer.

[MrManzano]

I think the terror attack was a wonderful twist, and, interestingly, upon seeing it I was actually saddened by the fact that Bioware had gone ahead with the whole JusteVengeance thing; wouldn't it have been a much better story if Anders had decided to do such a thing on his own?
Hell, I'm so saddened that I even developed a rationalization: since he did not become a full-blown madman-abomination, maybe Anders was never actually possessed, maybe he's never even met Justice: is it so far-fetched to believe that maybe he has multiple personality disorder?


Yes, it is too far fetched. Still, it remains a good tale, and if the third part unites the Champion and the Hero, I'm a happy mother****er.

edit: LOL@above post

Modifié par MrManzano, 19 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[TobiTobsen]

I'll quote myself from another topic

TobiTobsen wrote...

I fail to see why so many people think of Anders as the Anders from Awakening. That Anders doesn't exist anymore! He ceased to exist when he choose to share his body with Justice. He said it himself. There is no more Anders or Justice, just the abomination Vengeance. And even then it seems like the part of Justice turned Vengeance is taking over the shared body. In a rivalmance Anders says he has blackouts, cant remember what he did, cant control when his "Justice" side shows up and so on.

At the beginning of Act3 or maybe even earlier than that the part of Anders that still was in the body of Vengeance has lost. Justice/Vengeance is in control now, even if his eyes don't glow. They have the same goal now: Vengeance. Pure and simple. You're with them or against them. No compromise.

[AllThatJazz]

Anders as he was in Awakening did feel angry about the plight of Mages, but covered it up with glibness and flippancy - he did the classic thing of using humour as deflection and protection. He also wouldn't have had the nerve to do what he ended up doing in DA2 - with his habit of running away from situations, he lacked the moral backbone for one thing.

Justice/Vengeance gave him this in spades, as well as the single-minded focus necessary to really devote oneself to a cause, whatever the consequences. Justice/Vengeance, however is also why Anders lost much of the charm and humour he displayed in Awakening.

You can't really blame one without blaming the other. As has already been said, Anders accepted Justice; and at the very least it was Anders' own deep-seated rage that warped Justice into Vengeance. However, I think that any 'entity', even a good one, will end up completely taking over its host, because the force of such single-mindedness must be incredibly difficult for a human being, all distractions and differing perspectives, to resist. By the time he bombed the Chantry, there was not much, if anything, left of the old Anders.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 19 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[EricHVela]

Let's start a new thread about Ander's actions. Great idea.

Anyway, as said before in the existing thread: Anders is impatient and paranoid. His actions were the same. The result was nothing unexpected of such a person and such an act. What do we call those people in the real world?

Also as said in the existing thread: There is no way to guarantee that there wasn't another way given that we discovered that Meredith was already doing things against the Chantry and many Templars' wishes and she came under the further influence of a mind-altering device. Options regarding those factors existed until Anders' paranoid and impatient action destroyed all hope.

He took it upon himself to know more than everyone else what was "right" and forced his decision on everyone. So, that adds arrogance to his impatience and paranoia. Let's reflect such a personality to someone in the real world.

[Shacary]

NO,Anders is guilty imo. He seemed to me like one of the weak mages that used blood magic for strength, altho this sequel seemed to show all mages when scared or whatever turning into aboms. [ wonder any children ever made it to the circle in the first place if that happens so easily in adults...] By the time i got to the ending where i find that Anders betrayed me [ set me up and used me as a distraction for his lying scheme. I had had it with the mages. Despite the fact that my sister and purported father was a mage , I just felt used and used up. I killed him. I also dont like the : devil made me do it; excuse. He CHOOSE to betray is friend and kill innocents to gain " notice."
I agree with a few it was difficult to even like anders, and tbh most of the characters were one dimensional this go round. mb if i can force myself to replay it , i will experience some more faucets.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Perhaps I'll say - "Justice and Anders" are both at fault. They're co-conspirators in a heinous act of terrorism.

An act of wanting to abolish slavery that's been perpetuated for a thousand years by the Chantry, you mean?

[Badpie]

I think its a little of both. Anders had a lot of anger and hate and a cause he was obsessed with. But I don't think he would have done it had Justice not become a part of him. He twisted Justice with his anger and I think in turn Justice twisted right back. There was no Anders anymore after awhile. Yes he was still him and he is totally at fault for his actions, but I don't think it would have happened it if had just been Anders.

[NinjaRogue]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Perhaps I'll say - "Justice and Anders" are both at fault. They're co-conspirators in a heinous act of terrorism.

An act of wanting to abolish slavery that's been perpetuated for a thousand years by the Chantry, you mean?

Did you talk to the Grand Cleric at all? The Woman he killed in cold blood, even though she showed nothing but sympathy to? 

[LobselVith8]

NinjaRogue wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An act of wanting to abolish slavery that's been perpetuated for a thousand years by the Chantry, you mean?

Did you talk to the Grand Cleric at all? The Woman he killed in cold blood, even though she showed nothing but sympathy to? 

Yes, the same person who did absolutely nothing to stop the plight of the mages. I remember her very well.

[ExistsAlready]

Did you even listen to Anders? His little speech can be summed up as "I just killed the only person of mediating a peaceful solution, so you'll just HAVE to go and have a needlessly bloody conflict that might end up freeing all mages everywhere". His whole plan was: 1. Get mages and templars to kill each other 2. ???? 3. Pr-Freedom for All Mages.

[LobselVith8]

ExistsAlready wrote...

Did you even listen to Anders? His little speech can be summed up as "I just killed the only person of mediating a peaceful solution, so you'll just HAVE to go and have a needlessly bloody conflict that might end up freeing all mages everywhere". His whole plan was: 1. Get mages and templars to kill each other 2. ???? 3. Pr-Freedom for All Mages.

Because the options were between freedom and subjugation. I don't think another thousand years of slavery was the appropriate option, if you want my honest opinion.