209 réponses à ce sujet

[Suron]

LobselVith8 wrote...


He attacked members of the Chantry, who are members of an organization who have enslaved mages for nearly a millennia.

Think before you post anymore please.  For one this is getting off topic..and two what you're saying makes no sense.

basically it's like saying all Muslims (Maker worshipers, who would go to the Chantry) are all part of Al'Qaeda (Templars in this comparison.)

No...those who worship the maker and go to the Chantry to pray in NO WAY means they are to be grouped in with the treatment of the Mages and should be targets.  That's like saying Americans should be targeting all muslims because (by your lack of logic) they're guilty for the terrorist attacks done by Al'Qaeda.

yah real intelligent reasoning there.

What Anders did was an act of terrorism and murder of innocents.  He didn't attack those responsible he attacked innocents.  Like a coward.  Which sums up what a terrorist is.  It's like U.S. Soldiers attacking peaceful muslims and saying it's justified because of what Osama executed on 9/11.

Seriously man, think.

now let's get this back on topic.  It was a good discussion up till your inane posts.

[fathomless33]

You guys act like the church in this story has only one purpose, to oppress mages. Do you really think that is what the entire church is doing, that there isnt hunger drives, helping people, etc. Do you really think that the strongest church in the land is designed just to oppress 1% of the population.

We are talking about a church, not the KKK.

[LobselVith8]

fathomless33 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Funny how bad the very reasoning you are using is....

My reasoning is that I think slavery is wrong and should be abolished.

You forgot to add by any means necessary even killing civilians.

You forgot to add that Anders attacked members of a slavery organization, not civilians.

[fathomless33]

Suron wrote...

fathomless33 wrote...

A not so intelligent, immature mage, possessed by a demon.

/threadclose

congratulations on total lack of reading comprehension and failure.  in and of itself it doesn't even fit as an answer to the thread title...much less what the threads about..but you obviously don't comprehend that.  So how does your off-topic response warrant a "/threadclose" ?

exactly.

My point with that is that anders at the end was just a husk for his demon. He attacked oppressors in the same way a child would think to do so, hence immature. He did not fully think out his actions (due to being possessed by an evil demon) hence not intelligent.

It is just hard to envision so many people standing up for a terrorist. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but dont expect me not to point out their utter lack of common sense and decency in doing so.

[Kabraxal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

And all members of the Chantry are evil or support this stance?  Really?  Huh guess all those sisters and brothers that were just trying to help people had ulterior motives.

That isn't even what I said.

Kabraxal wrote...

Again, Mages have been PROVEN to be far more unstable and evil than the Chantry in the two games we are presented with:  Connor, Uldred, almost every blood mage...

Yeah, because enslaving mages, raping them, torturing them, making them tranquil, or condemning every mage man, woman, and child to die in Kirkwall for the actions of the man standing right in front of you isn't evil in the least...

Kabraxal wrote...

So by your very reasoning the Chantry is completely justified in enslaving every mage, tranquiling who they see fit, and killing those that try to rebel. 

On one hand, you have an organization that enslaves mages. On the other, you have a man wanting to end this millennia long cyle of slavery. I don't think the two situations are remotely similar.

Kabraxal wrote...

Funny how bad the very reasoning you are using is....

My reasoning is that I think slavery is wrong and should be abolished.

I am not supporting the Templars.  I sided with the mages actually.  Funny, condemning all acts of harming innocents and yet you wave away a mage's horrendous act because it was the Chantry.

Your argument is just bad and you continually prove it.  "The Templars did evil and vile things and killed innocents!  So it is okay to go and do an evil and vile thing and kill innocents to rebel against them!  That makes me a good guy!"    Anders is just like the Templar's.  He attacks innocents and commites an atrocity in the name of "good".  Both are evil.  You can't hand wave Anders' actions.  That is what I am arguing.

[fathomless33]

LobselVith8 wrote...

fathomless33 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Funny how bad the very reasoning you are using is....

My reasoning is that I think slavery is wrong and should be abolished.

You forgot to add by any means necessary even killing civilians.

You forgot to add that Anders attacked members of a slavery organization, not civilians.

Come on, use some sense. Saying that the church was full of militant soldiers is just silly. How many soldiers besides Sebastion did you see there? Women, children..... i am sure they were very oppressive to mages, it wasnt the other building that housed the crazed templar leader and the soldiers that did that.

[LobselVith8]

Suron wrote...

Think before you post anymore please.  For one this is getting off topic..and two what you're saying makes no sense.

Maybe you should try refraining from turning this personal simply because I don't agree with you on this issue.

Suron wrote...

No...those who worship the maker and go to the Chantry to pray in NO WAY means they are to be grouped in with the treatment of the Mages and should be targets.  That's like saying Americans should be targeting all muslims because (by your lack of logic) they're guilty for the terrorist attacks done by Al'Qaeda.

Members of the Chantry are indeed members of an organization that is actively enslaving men, women, and children of magical ability. Since he attacked in the middle of the night, the Chantry was closed and civilians wouldn't be in a closed Chantry.

Suron wrote...

What Anders did was an act of terrorism and murder of innocents.  He didn't attack those responsible he attacked innocents.  Like a coward.  Which sums up what a terrorist is.  It's like U.S. Soldiers attacking peaceful muslims and saying it's justified because of what Osama executed on 9/11.

What he did was attack an organization that has enslaved and terrorized his people for centuries. And please refrain from using 9/11 to prop your argument. Attacking civilians and attacking members of an organization involved in slavery are two very different things.

Suron wrote...

now let's get this back on topic.  It was a good discussion up till your inane posts.

You should try maintaining your composure when you discuss issues with people. You seem to have a real problem with people who disagree with you.

[Suron]

LobselVith8 wrote...

fathomless33 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Funny how bad the very reasoning you are using is....

My reasoning is that I think slavery is wrong and should be abolished.

You forgot to add by any means necessary even killing civilians.

You forgot to add that Anders attacked members of a slavery organization, not civilians.

reported.  you're derailing the thread and causing what was a good discussion into a totally off-topic direction that is causing nothing but arguments and trolling by both sides.

Start your own thread.  You're points have no place in this one.  It's not about if he was justified or not or if it was righ tor not.  Or can you not read?  It's about whether Vengeance influenced him and if he is totally responsible (good or bad) for his actions in blowing up the chantry.

go troll somewhere else.

[AllThatJazz]

fathomless33 wrote...

You guys act like the church in this story has only one purpose, to oppress mages. Do you really think that is what the entire church is doing, that there isnt hunger drives, helping people, etc. Do you really think that the strongest church in the land is designed just to oppress 1% of the population.

We are talking about a church, not the KKK.

No, but we are talking about the single most powerful institution in Thedas, one which has, and has had for a thousand years, enough influence to ameliorate the suffering of Mages or at least openly condemn the brutality of those Templars who abuse Mages. It hasn't done so. In a millennium, it hasn't done so. It has chosen to cover itself in a convenient blanket of neutrality whenever the issue has been raised. The Chantry, the Templars, those with all the power, have had centuries to prevent this appalling act from occurring. The surprise is less that it's happened, and more that it's taken so long.

As I have said before, I find the whole thing abhorrent. Anders, the Templars, Blood Mages, all of it. But I find it difficult not to sympathise with Anders' motives.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 19 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[Kabraxal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

fathomless33 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Funny how bad the very reasoning you are using is....

My reasoning is that I think slavery is wrong and should be abolished.

You forgot to add by any means necessary even killing civilians.

You forgot to add that Anders attacked members of a slavery organization, not civilians.

First... not every Chantry member is evil.  Just like your precious mages are not all branded by the acts of others.  Second, it is a bloody church.... have you ever been to one?  There are a constant stream of people in and out of the main churches in such cities like Kirkwall.  There were innocents there.  So no... the act is no better. 

Nice to see you can't show common sense and be able to understand that anyone working with the Chantry is not evil just because they work there.  You can sure apply it for the mages though... pity.

[LobselVith8]

Kabraxal wrote...

I am not supporting the Templars.  I sided with the mages actually.  Funny, condemning all acts of harming innocents and yet you wave away a mage's horrendous act because it was the Chantry.

I address that it was an attack on members of a religious organization involved in the slavery of mages. That's what I've specifically addressed.

Kabraxal wrote...

Your argument is just bad and you continually prove it.  "The Templars did evil and vile things and killed innocents!  So it is okay to go and do an evil and vile thing and kill innocents to rebel against them!  That makes me a good guy!"    Anders is just like the Templar's.  He attacks innocents and commites an atrocity in the name of "good".  Both are evil.  You can't hand wave Anders' actions.  That is what I am arguing.

I don't find your statement particularly compelling. Anders doesn't attack innocent people, he attacks members of a religious order involved in the slavery of mages. You seem to hand wave this fact when you condemn Anders, and I don't honestly see why.

[Suron]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

I am not supporting the Templars.  I sided with the mages actually.  Funny, condemning all acts of harming innocents and yet you wave away a mage's horrendous act because it was the Chantry.

I address that it was an attack on members of a religious organization involved in the slavery of mages. That's what I've specifically addressed.

Kabraxal wrote...

Your argument is just bad and you continually prove it.  "The Templars did evil and vile things and killed innocents!  So it is okay to go and do an evil and vile thing and kill innocents to rebel against them!  That makes me a good guy!"    Anders is just like the Templar's.  He attacks innocents and commites an atrocity in the name of "good".  Both are evil.  You can't hand wave Anders' actions.  That is what I am arguing.

I don't find your statement particularly compelling. Anders doesn't attack innocent people, he attacks members of a religious order involved in the slavery of mages. You seem to hand wave this fact when you condemn Anders, and I don't honestly see why.

reported again.  start your own thread.  your crap doesn't belong in this one.  it's spam and bordering trolling now.

[Ashaman65]

Yea fair enough Ander's could make the claim that all the Priests and such in the Chantry deserved to die and he obviously despises the order, but come on, the innocent church-goers? They're clearly innocents.


Anyway back to original topic (which I had actually forgot about):

Ander's clearly isn't himself, he's changed drastically from awakening into something else.
If he was still plain old Ander's I can't imagine he'd have took such drastic action.
He's possessed by a spirit of the fade and it's basically messing him up.

[fathomless33]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

I am not supporting the Templars.  I sided with the mages actually.  Funny, condemning all acts of harming innocents and yet you wave away a mage's horrendous act because it was the Chantry.

I address that it was an attack on members of a religious organization involved in the slavery of mages. That's what I've specifically addressed.

Kabraxal wrote...

Your argument is just bad and you continually prove it.  "The Templars did evil and vile things and killed innocents!  So it is okay to go and do an evil and vile thing and kill innocents to rebel against them!  That makes me a good guy!"    Anders is just like the Templar's.  He attacks innocents and commites an atrocity in the name of "good".  Both are evil.  You can't hand wave Anders' actions.  That is what I am arguing.

I don't find your statement particularly compelling. Anders doesn't attack innocent people, he attacks members of a religious order involved in the slavery of mages. You seem to hand wave this fact when you condemn Anders, and I don't honestly see why.

Ok technically you are correct, he attacked members of a religous order that is involved in mistreatment of mages (not slavery, because its not slavery)

However he attacked the building of the organization involved which housed nothing by women, children and nuns.

[fathomless33]

Suron... seriously no reason to tattle. If you are unable to handle people posting in a forum you should not be reading in a forum.

Dont be a b*&$h.

[LobselVith8]

Kabraxal wrote...

First... not every Chantry member is evil.  Just like your precious mages are not all branded by the acts of others.  Second, it is a bloody church.... have you ever been to one?  There are a constant stream of people in and out of the main churches in such cities like Kirkwall.  There were innocents there.  So no... the act is no better. 

I never said every Andrastian was evil. You seem to be arguing against points I never actually make. And I know that the Kirkwall Chantry closes at night, and that's not too dissimilar from churches I know.

Kabraxal wrote...

Nice to see you can't show common sense and be able to understand that anyone working with the Chantry is not evil just because they work there. 

Please refrain from being rude to me simply because I disagree with you.

[Suron]

Ashaman65 wrote...

Yea fair enough Ander's could make the claim that all the Priests and such in the Chantry deserved to die and he obviously despises the order, but come on, the innocent church-goers? They're clearly innocents.


Anyway back to original topic (which I had actually forgot about):

Ander's clearly isn't himself, he's changed drastically from awakening into something else.
If he was still plain old Ander's I can't imagine he'd have took such drastic action.
He's possessed by a spirit of the fade and it's basically messing him up.

thank you.  hopefully a mod will come in and clean up the posts.  Thread shouldn't be closed down because one person comes in here off-topic causing arguments and trolling all around.

let's get back to topic people.  The argument this guy is causing is off-topic and spam.  Let him start his own thread.

[LobselVith8]

Suron wrote...

reported again.  start your own thread.  your crap doesn't belong in this one.  it's spam and bordering trolling now.

Please stop trying to police this thread. I'm welcome to have a different opinion on the issue than you do. It's not trolling to have my own thoughts on the matter of Anders. I'm not certain what you're going to be reporting, by the way. Are you reporting that I have a different than you and decided to engage in discussion with people about it? Or are you reporting my request that you don't take these discussions personally?

[Kabraxal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

I am not supporting the Templars.  I sided with the mages actually.  Funny, condemning all acts of harming innocents and yet you wave away a mage's horrendous act because it was the Chantry.

I address that it was an attack on members of a religious organization involved in the slavery of mages. That's what I've specifically addressed.

Kabraxal wrote...

Your argument is just bad and you continually prove it.  "The Templars did evil and vile things and killed innocents!  So it is okay to go and do an evil and vile thing and kill innocents to rebel against them!  That makes me a good guy!"    Anders is just like the Templar's.  He attacks innocents and commites an atrocity in the name of "good".  Both are evil.  You can't hand wave Anders' actions.  That is what I am arguing.

I don't find your statement particularly compelling. Anders doesn't attack innocent people, he attacks members of a religious order involved in the slavery of mages. You seem to hand wave this fact when you condemn Anders, and I don't honestly see why.

You just proved your argument is worthless.  Sorry, but if you can't brand all mages by the acts of other mages, the same applies to any person invovled in the Chantry.  There are both evil and innocent Chantry members as well. 

If you brand all Chantry members as evil just by association then you are already making your argument worthless.  The fact you turn around and claim that you can't brand all mages as evil by association just makes it all the more ludicrous.  Really, do you not see why your argument is so pathetic?


And to those feeling we have derailed this... sorry.  As for the topic of discussion.  It was entirely Justice's warped being influencing, if not full out becoming Anders at the end. 

[Suron]

fathomless33 wrote...

Suron... seriously no reason to tattle. If you are unable to handle people posting in a forum you should not be reading in a forum.

Dont be a b*&$h.

again with reading comprehension.  It's off-topic for this thread and therefore spam.  In case you haven't noticed mods close threads down that degenerate off-topic and into arguments as he's caused in this thread.  I simply don't feel this thread should be closed down because of the crap one person stirs up that doesn't belong.

If he wants to have this discussion then it should be in his own thread.

so grow up, and instead of throwing insults maybe...learn to comprehend things people post before chiming in.

[Venefica]

I think that both sides have some very valid points...if nothing else, this thread is extremely interesting and gives you a lot to think about

[AllThatJazz]

I don't think that Justice exists any more. It clearly isn't 'Just'' to deliberately cause direct harm to people who haven't directly harmed you, even if you have been harmed by their inaction, and however understandable your motives. It's an act of Vengeance. As far as I'm concerned, Justice and Anders both died in the defence of Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine.

[fathomless33]

Maybe you should make more specific thread names......

And it doesnt take reading comprehension to watch you whine.

[Suron]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Suron wrote...

reported again.  start your own thread.  your crap doesn't belong in this one.  it's spam and bordering trolling now.

Please stop trying to police this thread. I'm welcome to have a different opinion on the issue than you do. It's not trolling to have my own thoughts on the matter of Anders. I'm not certain what you're going to be reporting, by the way. Are you reporting that I have a different than you and decided to engage in discussion with people about it? Or are you reporting my request that you don't take these discussions personally?

since you can't read either I'll spell it out.  Your point of view is not why I'm reporting you.  And mods will decide if anything should be done.  I'm done talking about this.

But now to spell it out for you..maybe you'll understand it this way.

I reported you not because you disagree with me.  But because you're taking the thread off-topic and causing nothing but arguments that don't belong in this thread.  It is spam and borderline trolling.  Your stance about the chantry and slavery do not, in any way, belong in this thread.

if you don't understand why..re-read the thread title.  If you still don't get it.  I can't help you.  But I don't care if you disagree with me.  That's not what it's about.

[Kabraxal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

First... not every Chantry member is evil.  Just like your precious mages are not all branded by the acts of others.  Second, it is a bloody church.... have you ever been to one?  There are a constant stream of people in and out of the main churches in such cities like Kirkwall.  There were innocents there.  So no... the act is no better. 

I never said every Andrastian was evil. You seem to be arguing against points I never actually make. And I know that the Kirkwall Chantry closes at night, and that's not too dissimilar from churches I know.

Kabraxal wrote...

Nice to see you can't show common sense and be able to understand that anyone working with the Chantry is not evil just because they work there. 

Please refrain from being rude to me simply because I disagree with you.

Last one I swear...

You said it yourself in other posts.  He was only attacking a building full of those part of an organisation that endorsed slavery.  Evil by association.  You said nothing about any innocents that were clearly in there.