209 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Kabraxal wrote...

You just proved your argument is worthless.  Sorry, but if you can't brand all mages by the acts of other mages, the same applies to any person invovled in the Chantry.  There are both evil and innocent Chantry members as well. 

When did I brand all Chantry members or all templars evil? I don't think that's the case at all.

Kabraxal wrote...

If you brand all Chantry members as evil just by association then you are already making your argument worthless.  The fact you turn around and claim that you can't brand all mages as evil by association just makes it all the more ludicrous.  Really, do you not see why your argument is so pathetic?

I see you apparently take these discussions very personally, and seem to continue to debate issues that I haven't made at all.

[LobselVith8]

Kabraxal wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

First... not every Chantry member is evil.  Just like your precious mages are not all branded by the acts of others.  Second, it is a bloody church.... have you ever been to one?  There are a constant stream of people in and out of the main churches in such cities like Kirkwall.  There were innocents there.  So no... the act is no better. 

I never said every Andrastian was evil. You seem to be arguing against points I never actually make. And I know that the Kirkwall Chantry closes at night, and that's not too dissimilar from churches I know.

Kabraxal wrote...

Nice to see you can't show common sense and be able to understand that anyone working with the Chantry is not evil just because they work there. 

Please refrain from being rude to me simply because I disagree with you.

Last one I swear...

You said it yourself in other posts.  He was only attacking a building full of those part of an organisation that endorsed slavery.  Evil by association.  You said nothing about any innocents that were clearly in there.

It's not "evil by association" when you're an active member of said organization.

[AllThatJazz]

Venefica wrote...

I think that both sides have some very valid points...if nothing else, this thread is extremely interesting and gives you a lot to think about

I agree. I think DA2 is a very thought provoking game.

[Suron]

since people can't seem to read the OP before chiming in. I changed the thread title to more reflect what the OP is about.

next time read before posting. Either way I'm done with the off-topic crap brought in here.

[Kabraxal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

You just proved your argument is worthless.  Sorry, but if you can't brand all mages by the acts of other mages, the same applies to any person invovled in the Chantry.  There are both evil and innocent Chantry members as well. 

When did I brand all Chantry members or all templars evil? I don't think that's the case at all.

Kabraxal wrote...

If you brand all Chantry members as evil just by association then you are already making your argument worthless.  The fact you turn around and claim that you can't brand all mages as evil by association just makes it all the more ludicrous.  Really, do you not see why your argument is so pathetic?

I see you apparently take these discussions very personally, and seem to continue to debate issues that I haven't made at all.

Read your damn posts.  You clearly said he only blew up a building with people working for an organisation that endorses slavery.   That is branding any chantry member by association.

And upon further thought... I am wondering if anything of the real Anders is left.  He doesn't seem like the Anders of Awakenings.  Maybe Vengeance smothered both Anders and Justice.

[AllThatJazz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

First... not every Chantry member is evil.  Just like your precious mages are not all branded by the acts of others.  Second, it is a bloody church.... have you ever been to one?  There are a constant stream of people in and out of the main churches in such cities like Kirkwall.  There were innocents there.  So no... the act is no better. 

I never said every Andrastian was evil. You seem to be arguing against points I never actually make. And I know that the Kirkwall Chantry closes at night, and that's not too dissimilar from churches I know.

Kabraxal wrote...

Nice to see you can't show common sense and be able to understand that anyone working with the Chantry is not evil just because they work there. 

Please refrain from being rude to me simply because I disagree with you.

Last one I swear...

You said it yourself in other posts.  He was only attacking a building full of those part of an organisation that endorsed slavery.  Evil by association.  You said nothing about any innocents that were clearly in there.

It's not "evil by association" when you're an active member of said organization.

To be fair, I doubt the average Kirkwall citizen is all that aware of the Chantry's political stance on Mages/Templars. Anyone in there not actively employed by the Chantry is probably just there asking the Maker to look after their sick grandma or something. 

[DrGulag]

Anders is basically a terrorist bomber who believes that he will achieve martyrdom by saving his fellow mages from persecution, and damn the consequences.

He is basically a care-free dreamer who doesn't see the dark side of magic practitioners. Probably, because he has been dabbling with fade demons.

The society has a very good reason to keep mages locked up and isolated from the rest. But there are not enough checks and balances to stop abuse inside the Circle of Magi. The templars should be working directly under the government.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 08:18 .

[Dave of Canada]

Suron wrote...

next time read before posting. Either way I'm done with the off-topic crap brought in here.

Any thread about a mage will bring out modern morals in people and they'll say mages deserve freedom, it's been this way even before it released.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Suron wrote...

reported again.  start your own thread.  your crap doesn't belong in this one.  it's spam and bordering trolling now.

Please stop trying to police this thread. I'm welcome to have a different opinion on the issue than you do. It's not trolling to have my own thoughts on the matter of Anders. I'm not certain what you're going to be reporting, by the way. Are you reporting that I have a different than you and decided to engage in discussion with people about it? Or are you reporting my request that you don't take these discussions personally?

Please show me the post where you discussed whether it was Anders, Justice, or Vengeance which influenced the attack on the Chantry?

[Kabraxal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

First... not every Chantry member is evil.  Just like your precious mages are not all branded by the acts of others.  Second, it is a bloody church.... have you ever been to one?  There are a constant stream of people in and out of the main churches in such cities like Kirkwall.  There were innocents there.  So no... the act is no better. 

I never said every Andrastian was evil. You seem to be arguing against points I never actually make. And I know that the Kirkwall Chantry closes at night, and that's not too dissimilar from churches I know.

Kabraxal wrote...

Nice to see you can't show common sense and be able to understand that anyone working with the Chantry is not evil just because they work there. 

Please refrain from being rude to me simply because I disagree with you.

Last one I swear...

You said it yourself in other posts.  He was only attacking a building full of those part of an organisation that endorsed slavery.  Evil by association.  You said nothing about any innocents that were clearly in there.

It's not "evil by association" when you're an active member of said organization.

So all Chantry members are evil.

You just admitted it.  Now thank you for proving how bad your argument is... good day and have fun trolling some more.

[fathomless33]

Thanks for changing the thread name to something more accurate to what you want to talk about, how about apologizing to the people you were reporting that were responding to your incorrect thread name?

[AllThatJazz]

Suron wrote...

since people can't seem to read the OP before chiming in. I changed the thread title to more reflect what the OP is about.

next time read before posting. Either way I'm done with the off-topic crap brought in here.

This is kind of what happens to threads, particularly popular and interesting ones as this is. They have a tendency to go off-topic for a bit, then get back on the rails, then go off a bit again. Anders is still in the thread somewhere 

[fathomless33]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Suron wrote...

since people can't seem to read the OP before chiming in. I changed the thread title to more reflect what the OP is about.

next time read before posting. Either way I'm done with the off-topic crap brought in here.

This is kind of what happens to threads, particularly popular and interesting ones as this is. They have a tendency to go off-topic for a bit, then get back on the rails, then go off a bit again. Anders is still in the thread somewhere 

Yea ha, welcome to the internet.

It seems that once his outfit changed it felt like he had gone almost completely demon, i didnt buy any of the getting rid of justice stuff at all, i knew something bad was going down. Didnt think it would be that bad though.

Like i have stated before, he was a off to begin with but by late game i think he was just a anders shaped body for his demon possessing him.

[NinjaRogue]

LobselVith8 wrote...

[
Finn escaped the Circle, and he was an apostate. Wynne specifically mentions that mages aren't free, and never contests the Circle being a prison or a place of oppression when the Warden uses those terms; in fact, she says the Warden can change the Circle being an oppressive place.

Furthermore, Wynne notes in Awakening that the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free.

.

Finn didn't escape the Circle.......WTH

[LobselVith8]

Kabraxal wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

You said it yourself in other posts.  He was only attacking a building full of those part of an organisation that endorsed slavery.  Evil by association.  You said nothing about any innocents that were clearly in there.

It's not "evil by association" when you're an active member of said organization.

So all Chantry members are evil.

You just admitted it.  Now thank you for proving how bad your argument is... good day and have fun trolling some more.

My argument is bad because you completely ignored it and invented your own argument in lieu of it? Is this honestly the argument you're trying to make? You do understand that using a re-worded "guilt by association" doesn't mean what you think it does. And maybe you could try to refrain from calling people trolls when they disagree with you?

[AllThatJazz]

DrGulag wrote...

Anders is basically a terrorist bomber who believes that he will achieve martyrdom by saving his fellow mages from persecution, and damn the consequences.

He is basically a care-free dreamer who doesn't see the dark side of magic practitioners. Probably, because he has been dabbling with fade demons.

The society has a very good reason to keep mages locked up and isolated from the rest. But there are not enough checks and balances to stop abuse inside the Circle of Magi. The templars should be working directly under the government.

Anders/Justice hates Blood Mages, probably almost as much as he hates Templars. He thinks they are part of the problem. He's right. Every time a Mage turns Maleficar, it justifies the Templars treatment of all Mages, at least to many people. But to others, every time a Mage is abused by a Templar, it justifies the use of Blood Magic to escape. A horrid vicious Circle.

Anders admits in one conversation later in the game that he has no idea whether it is Justice or Vengeance dictating his actions.  Whatever scraps of Awakening Anders that still existed at that point, he was completely unable to distinguish between the two, and powerless to resist. Godammit, Anders, you foolish boy!

[NinjaRogue]

Let's point out, that Malcom Hawke, and apostate was friends with a Templar, and it sounded like Carver was what Malcom thought Templar's where supposed to be. Bethany acts like she was raised to believe in the Maker, her main teacher Malcom Hawke

[Kabraxal]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

You said it yourself in other posts.  He was only attacking a building full of those part of an organisation that endorsed slavery.  Evil by association.  You said nothing about any innocents that were clearly in there.

It's not "evil by association" when you're an active member of said organization.

So all Chantry members are evil.

You just admitted it.  Now thank you for proving how bad your argument is... good day and have fun trolling some more.

My argument is bad because you completely ignored it and invented your own argument in lieu of it? Is this honestly the argument you're trying to make? You do understand that using a re-worded "guilt by association" doesn't mean what you think it does. And maybe you could try to refrain from calling people trolls when they disagree with you?

You are arguing that all Chantry members are evil... and you have said that is what you were doing.  Then admitted it... then restated it, then denied that is what you did.  That is trolling. Or you just have no clue how to argue.  Either way, your argument is dead in the water.

[Foolsfolly]

Suron wrote...

ok..let's forget whether it was right, wrong, justified, or not.

When you first meet Anders he says that Justice is a part of him.  And was changed due to Anders hatred for the injustice mages go through into Vengeance.

Then he states that Vengeance is a part of him and that Vengeance's thoughts "are his own."  And no scholar could tell you where Anders ends and Justice begins....

With that...Do you think Anders decision to nuke the Chantry and kill all those innocents was really his own doing...or the fault of (or at least influence of) Justice turned Vengeance?

Do you think Anders would have done it even if Justice/Vengeance wasn't a part of him.  Or did Vengeance's twisted anger and thoughts influence Anders to make the decision to nuke the Chantry?  And if that's the case then is Anders FULLY to blame..or only partially?

And I think at one point he says he can't tell the difference between Justice and Vengence.

And he says that he is the cause for all mages. Which is a big bit of delusion.

I think Anders, by probably Act 2, is insane. He's gone batty and can no longer decern right/wrong. He's a crazy man and if you let him live he'll do this again. Look at the mission where he almost/does kill that Mage girl. Anders isn't in control, Justice isn't in control, and Vengence isn't in control. He's just a mindless killing machine at that point.

[AllThatJazz]

fathomless33 wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Suron wrote...

since people can't seem to read the OP before chiming in. I changed the thread title to more reflect what the OP is about.

next time read before posting. Either way I'm done with the off-topic crap brought in here.

This is kind of what happens to threads, particularly popular and interesting ones as this is. They have a tendency to go off-topic for a bit, then get back on the rails, then go off a bit again. Anders is still in the thread somewhere 

Yea ha, welcome to the internet.

It seems that once his outfit changed it felt like he had gone almost completely demon, i didnt buy any of the getting rid of justice stuff at all, i knew something bad was going down. Didnt think it would be that bad though.

Like i have stated before, he was a off to begin with but by late game i think he was just a anders shaped body for his demon possessing him.

Agree. I really liked the Renegade Coat, although it was a bit of a giveaway that Anders had pretty much turned to the Dark Side!

[TJPags]

NinjaRogue wrote...

Let's point out, that Malcom Hawke, and apostate was friends with a Templar, and it sounded like Carver was what Malcom thought Templar's where supposed to be. Bethany acts like she was raised to believe in the Maker, her main teacher Malcom Hawke

Indeed.

I found it interesting that Bethany expressed, early in the game, thoughts that maybe she should have gone to a Circle as a child.  And I also found it interesting that she seemed to like it in there once she got there.

[Dave of Canada]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Anders isn't in control, Justice isn't in control, and Vengence isn't in control. He's just a mindless killing machine at that point.

This is how I feel, he says countless times that there isn't Justice / Anders anymore and they are both one. So each time he blames that he lost control or something, I simply view it as him losing his anger and going bat**** crazy killer on everybody.

Like that guy who blames the demons for his killing ways.

[AllThatJazz]

TJPags wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

Let's point out, that Malcom Hawke, and apostate was friends with a Templar, and it sounded like Carver was what Malcom thought Templar's where supposed to be. Bethany acts like she was raised to believe in the Maker, her main teacher Malcom Hawke

Indeed.

I found it interesting that Bethany expressed, early in the game, thoughts that maybe she should have gone to a Circle as a child.  And I also found it interesting that she seemed to like it in there once she got there.

But she also says that she never realised how much freedom she had until she went to the Circle.

[Dave of Canada]

TJPags wrote...

I found it interesting that Bethany expressed, early in the game, thoughts that maybe she should have gone to a Circle as a child.  And I also found it interesting that she seemed to like it in there once she got there.

Mostly it's because the Circle isn't as bad as people make it out to be, you don't have to be afraid that you're going to be killed for something you didn't do and you're among peers and learn how to control your magic. Most of the bad things we hear of the Circle is rumors, Anders bias or something. 

Mages are protected by the templar as much as the normal people.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2011 - 08:35 .

[LobselVith8]

Kabraxal wrote...

Read your damn posts.  You clearly said he only blew up a building with people working for an organisation that endorses slavery.   That is branding any chantry member by association.

And upon further thought... I am wondering if anything of the real Anders is left.  He doesn't seem like the Anders of Awakenings.  Maybe Vengeance smothered both Anders and Justice.

Even in Awakening, Anders wanted to be free, and Justice spoke to him about rising up against his oppressors. Clearly, they shared the ideal that mages shouldn't be treated the way they are by the templars long before they shared the same body. Furthermore, you seem to be conflating the issue of Andrastians with members of the Chantry. You seem to attack me for pointing out that the Chantry controls the mages when you villify Anders for wanting an end to slavery. When Anders made the decision to attack, he did so because he wanted to end the stalemate. He didn't want any middle ground between freedom and subjugation.

I don't think Anders has ever truly been simply Anders since he merged with Justice, because both of them are symbiotically merged together in a way where Anders openly admitted that he doesn't know where he ends and Justice begins.

TJPags wrote...

Please show me the post where you discussed whether it was Anders, Justice, or Vengeance which influenced the attack on the Chantry?

This doesn't even touch on what you were replying to, but I disagreed with what Nox had said, then I responded to people who directly addressed me afterwards.

NinjaRogue wrote...

Finn didn't escape the Circle.......WTH

I thought you were talking about Sketch.