209 réponses à ce sujet

[NinjaRogue]

And my Thomas Hawke I am playing right now is going to follow what I have interpreted as Malcom Hawkes belief system. Meaning he is going to be exact opposite of Anders. And to quote The Templar Friend of Malcom "We should not jail the best of us" That is not an exact quote but that's what I got out of it.

Reason I think Anders is gone:

Anders in Awakening says: "Are they insane? Breaking away from the Chantry is insane!"

[AtreiyaN7]

I would say that Justice played a large part in what happened after they merged, making Anders fixate on the cause of mages and also exacerbating his innate hatred of the templars, etc. It turned him increasingly militant/extremist. However, Anders acknowledges early on that it was his anger that warped Justice, so I think they both share responsibility. In my opinion, Anders just wasn't emotionally balanced enough to merge with Justice. If you look at someone like Wynne, she was at a stage in her life where she was mature and wise and had most of her issues worked out - but maybe a Spirit of Faith is just inherently more gentle and suitable for that kind of merging.

[MortalEngines]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You forgot to add that Anders attacked members of a slavery organization, not civilians.

Please, use a dictionary:

Civilian:
[*]a nonmilitary citizen[*]associated with civil life or performed by persons who are not active members of the military; "civilian clothing"; "civilian life"[/list]Last I remember, the grand cleric wasn't carrying a sword around or posing any sort of military threat (nor any of the people within and around the chantry building). And while the DIVINE, controls the templars, the Grand Cleric tends not to have much control, the Grand Cleric herself says she is in no position to take sides and sympathizes with the mages.

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not "evil by association" when you're an active member of said organization.

Again use proper definition. To 'actively' be a part of the circle treatment, the Grand Cleric would have to be there herself ordering Templars and following Meredith's orders. We see countless times that the Grand Cleric CAN NOT control Meredith's actions and can only attempt to avoid Orsino and Meredith from starting out  a war.

Don't try to justify Anders by saying he did it because the Grand Cleric or the Chantry members were directly 'enslaving' (I would dispute it was slavery but that's another discussion) the mages. He did it because the Grand Cleric was the only thing stopping war, the war he wanted. So don't try to hide behind your own made-up ideals.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 19 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[Suron]

fathomless33 wrote...

Thanks for changing the thread name to something more accurate to what you want to talk about, how about apologizing to the people you were reporting that were responding to your incorrect thread name?

how about no.  It's not my fault people reply without reading the first post.  If anything you have it backwards.

read OP.  then post.  I fess up to my own mistakes.  But I don't apologize when I don't owe one.

[LobselVith8]

Kabraxal wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

My argument is bad because you completely ignored it and invented your own argument in lieu of it? Is this honestly the argument you're trying to make? You do understand that using a re-worded "guilt by association" doesn't mean what you think it does. And maybe you could try to refrain from calling people trolls when they disagree with you?

You are arguing that all Chantry members are evil... and you have said that is what you were doing. 

This isn't factually accurate.

Kabraxal wrote...

Then admitted it...

You mean I quoted you and used quotation marks when I did so, in direct reference to your claim that all I was doing was making an argument about guilt by association?

Kabraxal wrote...

then restated it, then denied that is what you did.  That is trolling. Or you just have no clue how to argue.  Either way, your argument is dead in the water.

I never said all Chantry members were evil. Please stop trying to put words into my mouth. All I did was quote your rephrased "guilt by association" term, and even used quotes when I said it because I was addressing what you specifically said.

[TJPags]

One thing to keep in mind with Anders-as-abomination*.  It's not how it normally works.

Usually, as I think we've been led to understand, a demon will find someone, and offer them something in return for, essentially, possession.  Desire demons give you illusions of desires come true, Pride demons give you power to make your dreams reality, etc.

What does Justice have to offer?  He is a spirit of Justice. 

Justice defined:


–noun
1.
the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2.
rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3.
the moral principle determining just conduct.
4.
conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5.
the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6.
the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
7.
judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community.
8.
a judicial officer; a judge or magistrate.
9.
( initial capital letter ) Also called Justice Department. the Department of Justice.

from Dictionary.com

As we see, Justice is somewhat of an amorphous concept.  Look at the first definition - the quality of being just.  It's a much vaguer concept than a Desire Demon or a Pride Demon can latch onto. 

Look at some examples = In DAO, we see a Desrire Demon feeding from a Templar that she made believe had a family.  Clearly, something he wanted.  In DA2, the Pride Demon tempts Isabela with a fine new, fast ship.

What does Justice have to tempt with?  Bringing Justice to things?  What things?  What form of Justice?

I think it's too vague a concept to embody for long in a possession-type situation.  In DAA, Justice was stirred to action by the unjust entrapment of souls by the Countess.  His goal - let them free of her influence to continue on (wherever souls go in Thedas).  But there, all those souls were trapped.  None knew it.  All were kept from continuing.

How does Justice deal with some mages who seem happy in the Circle? Wynne seemed happy there.  Bethany did.  Finn did.  Ella did.  Its too big a concept for a Spirit/Demon to latch onto, IMO.  Which is why, in the end, the person at issue - Anders - became unstable.


*I refer to Anders-as-abomination since we don't technically know if possession by a "Spirit" rather than a "Demon" makes one an abomination.  I think it does, but it seems debateable.

[Ryzaki]

As for Bethany she writes to you about avoiding certain templars who abuse their charges. She also tells you in the end if you side with the mages that she sees why they want to be free.

She's not pro-circle.

[NinjaRogue]

Anders blew up the Chantry, not the Templar Hall.

[sevalaricgirl]

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 19 mars 2011 - 08:55 .

[Emzamination]

Anders is a fool for calling vengence a curse.

Spirits were the makers first children and were able to manipulate his world (the fade) making them pretty much  minor gods and Its been proven spirits and demons extend your life span.

I think anders should just stop fighting it and become one completely with vengence to unlock his full power and potential. 

[LobselVith8]

MortalEngines wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You forgot to add that Anders attacked members of a slavery organization, not civilians.

Please, use a dictionary

Since you insisted:

n.

A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.
A person who does not belong to a particular group or engage in a particular activity.
A specialist in Roman or civil law.

Considering the Order of Templars work directly for the Chantry of Andraste and control all fourteen Circles of Magi in Ferelden and can declare holy wars on their enemies, it's not the same thing.

That's the reason Anders pulled his "stunt." Meredith ran Kirkwall and the Gallows Prison, but the Grand Cleric officially had authority. We saw that the Grand Cleric could get templars to "escort" the First Enchanter away in Year Seven. I think Anders and Justice became someone new when they symbiotically merged together, because they shared each other's experiences. They weren't really the same person after that experience. Since they both wanted to put an end to the plight of the mages, that was pushed forward when we consider what Anders did.

MortalEngines wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not "evil by association" when you're an active member of said organization.

Again use proper definition.

Fair enough. From "Hierarchy of the Circle" codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. "

So second to the highest ranking member of the Chantry is none other than the Grand Cleric.

The Order of Templars serve the Chantry, not the other way around. This is explicitly said in Dragon Age: Origins and nothing contradicts this in Dragon Age 2. When we consider Anders' "stunt," this should be considered with it.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[Dave of Canada]

Just came back to read real quick and now we're having comparisons that the Chantry endorses slavery? I guess that means any reasonable discussion in this thread is done?

[NinjaRogue]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.

Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just came back to read real quick and now we're having comparisons that the Chantry endorses slavery? I guess that means any reasonable discussion in this thread is done?

Hawke can refer to the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery. So do other characters. Why is this not reasonable?

[Emzamination]

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.

Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 

Meredith is the chantry's whipping girl

The chantry always has its fingers in the pie.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke can refer to the Chantry controlled Circle as slavery. So do other characters. Why is this not reasonable?

Because you're dismissing points by saying it's being done to slavers? That the priests weren't innocent because they were associates to slavery?

[AllThatJazz]

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.

Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 

But the Chantry is the Power in Thedas! The Divine can call for an Exalted March. And technically, aren't the Templars really the military arm of the Chantry? Okay, so in actual fact, in Kirkwall Meredith is more powerful than Elthina, but on paper, the authority of the Chantry supersedes that of the Templars.

[NinjaRogue]

Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.

Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 

Meredith is the chantry's whipping girl

The chantry always has its fingers in the pie.

She invoked the Rite of Annulment without authorization, she tranquiled Mages that passed their Harrowing, she couldn't care a flip about the Chantry law.

To quote the Grand Cleric to Petrice and point it at Meredith

"And you demean his name."

[Icy Magebane]

I'll apologize for speaking in absolutes, but there's no way that I'm going to accept that Mage Circles are a form of slavery. Guess I was wrong to assume this would be something commonly agreed upon. I suppose you're free to see it that way, but I don't get the comparison. Seems to me that it's just a word being used to make this issue favor the side of the mages. If you call them slaves, then anybody who disagrees is automatically "bad." Etc...

IMO, their personal freedoms are restricted, but they are not mind controlled, used as forced labor, compelled into any action they find disagreeable (aside from not being able to travel freely and summon demons), etc. Obviously templars who violate the rules cannot be considered the norm, and if there are templars who abuse mages, that is not the fault of the system itself. That problem stems from the individual.

On the other hand, that's exactly what results from demonic, or in Anders' case, spiritual possession. Mages are too dangerous to be treated like normal people, and special rules need to be in place to mitigate the damage they can cause.

The situation in Mage Circles does not fit any definition of slavery that I've ever heard, but apparently I was wrong about that.

As I said, slavery is a loaded word. I'd contend that we are all mentally enslaved by the cultures and environments we come from. Even those who "rebel" by choosing to live outside the morality, ethics, and ideals with which they were raised are still following a different kind of programming. So if we aren't talking about actual slavery, the forcible control of a persons actions to the benefit of the captor, then what is the point of bringing it up?

Edit:  I also noticed something about being reported for being off topic?  o.O  Hell, maybe I shouldn't be talking in this thread... I thought Anders/Mages/Tempars was the topic...  

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 19 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[AllThatJazz]

 @TJ - that's a really interesting angle. 
I'm not sure I ever got the impression that Wynne was happy in the Circle. Had moments of happiness while she was there, sure - it must be difficult to spend a lifetime somewhere and never experience any happiness at all. I kind of thought that she'd accepted her life there (after being very angry about it in her younger days), but there was still some deep regret - namely the removal of her son, which must have been extraordinarily painful.

[TJPags]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just came back to read real quick and now we're having comparisons that the Chantry endorses slavery? I guess that means any reasonable discussion in this thread is done?

Yup - its another "free the mages, the Chantry is evil" discussion now.

[Last Vizard]

Suron wrote...

ok..let's forget whether it was right, wrong, justified, or not.

When you first meet Anders he says that Justice is a part of him.  And was changed due to Anders hatred for the injustice mages go through into Vengeance.

Then he states that Vengeance is a part of him and that Vengeance's thoughts "are his own."  And no scholar could tell you where Anders ends and Justice begins....

With that...Do you think Anders decision to nuke the Chantry and kill all those innocents was really his own doing...or the fault of (or at least influence of) Justice turned Vengeance?

Do you think Anders would have done it even if Justice/Vengeance wasn't a part of him.  Or did Vengeance's twisted anger and thoughts influence Anders to make the decision to nuke the Chantry?  And if that's the case then is Anders FULLY to blame..or only partially?

1. Anders was the one who started brainstorming to try and figure out how he can bring either true freedom for Mages or a quick death, then asks himself if he should magic bomb the chantry and kill innocents (accept for the chantry mother you can talk to--- (not innocent)) and remove the peaceful solution i wouldn've taken to save more lives on either side even though the Knight-Commander deserved death... and the one who answered his question was Vengeance-- (YES)

2. Only the writter can tell you if he would've still done it or not, people are unpredictable and especially so when someone is ordering Templars to make you all tranquil.

(the writter can even bring the dead back to life).--- and what the hell is up with rpg games today when i have to tell a male character (NO for the love of god NO... i'm as straight as the bloody shortest distance between two points). can i get a start menu option saying i'm straight?

[AllThatJazz]

NinjaRogue wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.

Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 

Meredith is the chantry's whipping girl

The chantry always has its fingers in the pie.

She invoked the Rite of Annulment without authorization, she tranquiled Mages that passed their Harrowing, she couldn't care a flip about the Chantry law.

To quote the Grand Cleric to Petrice and point it at Meredith

"And you demean his name."

We do have to take into account that Meredith is Bat **** crazy by this point. Between her, Anders and Orsino, there isn't a single shred of sanity left.

[TexasToast712]

TJPags wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Just came back to read real quick and now we're having comparisons that the Chantry endorses slavery? I guess that means any reasonable discussion in this thread is done?

Yup - its another "free the mages, the Chantry is evil" discussion now.

And LobselVith, the biggest mage fanboy in existence, is at the heart of it all. I swear he was abused as a child or something.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 19 mars 2011 - 09:10 .

[Dave of Canada]

Last Vizard wrote...

(the writter can even bring the dead back to life).--- and what the hell is up with rpg games today when i have to tell a male character (NO for the love of god NO... i'm as straight as the bloody shortest distance between two points). can i get a start menu option saying i'm straight?

I didn't know being straight made you immune to being flirted by men who found you attractive.