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So let's talk about Vengeance's influence on Anders.....stunt


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#151
NinjaRogue

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AllThatJazz wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.


Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 


Meredith is the chantry's whipping girl

The chantry always has its fingers in the pie.


She invoked the Rite of Annulment without authorization, she tranquiled Mages that passed their Harrowing, she couldn't care a flip about the Chantry law.

To quote the Grand Cleric to Petrice and point it at Meredith

"And you demean his name."


We do have to take into account that Meredith is Bat **** crazy by this point. Between her, Anders and Orsino, there isn't a single shred of sanity left.


Agreed :D But she was Tranquil Crazy befor Deep Roads Idol

Modifié par NinjaRogue, 19 mars 2011 - 09:13 .


#152
Icy Magebane

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So as not to ****** off the OP... ON TOPIC - As I said before, Anders and Justice are one and the same, so that entity is the one responsible, not Anders, and not Justice.

#153
TJPags

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AllThatJazz wrote...

 @TJ - that's a really interesting angle. 
I'm not sure I ever got the impression that Wynne was happy in the Circle. Had moments of happiness while she was there, sure - it must be difficult to spend a lifetime somewhere and never experience any happiness at all. I kind of thought that she'd accepted her life there (after being very angry about it in her younger days), but there was still some deep regret - namely the removal of her son, which must have been extraordinarily painful.



See, I saw her differently - that she had moments of unhappiness, but was on the whole happy.  She talked positively about being around people like her, about the camraderie she felt.  She certainly had freedom to travel, to engage in her research, as did other mages.  I really did get the impression she was, overall, happy there.

#154
TexasToast712

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

(the writter can even bring the dead back to life).--- and what the hell is up with rpg games today when i have to tell a male character (NO for the love of god NO... i'm as straight as the bloody shortest distance between two points). can i get a start menu option saying i'm straight?


I didn't know being straight made you immune to being flirted by men who found you attractive.

Actually, a start menu option would be appreciated.

#155
Emzamination

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NinjaRogue wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.


Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 


Meredith is the chantry's whipping girl

The chantry always has its fingers in the pie.


She invoked the Rite of Annulment without authorization, she tranquiled Mages that passed their Harrowing, she couldn't care a flip about the Chantry law.

To quote the Grand Cleric to Petrice and point it at Meredith

"And you demean his name."


There are a few good priest in the chantry but the grand cleric is small potatoes compared to the tyrant divine who calls exalted marches on any who dare to defy her influence and power.

Remember the dwarves in dao?

#156
NinjaRogue

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Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.


Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 


Meredith is the chantry's whipping girl

The chantry always has its fingers in the pie.


She invoked the Rite of Annulment without authorization, she tranquiled Mages that passed their Harrowing, she couldn't care a flip about the Chantry law.

To quote the Grand Cleric to Petrice and point it at Meredith

"And you demean his name."


There are a few good priest in the chantry but the grand cleric is small potatoes compared to the tyrant divine who calls exalted marches on any who dare to defy her influence and power.

Remember the dwarves in dao?


Last playthrough I did, I didn't make a Chantry in Orzammar :P

#157
Emzamination

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Icy Magebane wrote...

I'll apologize for speaking in absolutes, but there's no way that I'm going to accept that Mage Circles are a form of slavery. Guess I was wrong to assume this would be something commonly agreed upon. I suppose you're free to see it that way, but I don't get the comparison. Seems to me that it's just a word being used to make this issue favor the side of the mages. If you call them slaves, then anybody who disagrees is automatically "bad." Etc...

IMO, their personal freedoms are restricted, but they are not mind controlled, used as forced labor, compelled into any action they find disagreeable (aside from not being able to travel freely and summon demons), etc. Obviously templars who violate the rules cannot be considered the norm, and if there are templars who abuse mages, that is not the fault of the system itself. That problem stems from the individual.

On the other hand, that's exactly what results from demonic, or in Anders' case, spiritual possession. Mages are too dangerous to be treated like normal people, and special rules need to be in place to mitigate the damage they can cause.

The situation in Mage Circles does not fit any definition of slavery that I've ever heard, but apparently I was wrong about that.

As I said, slavery is a loaded word. I'd contend that we are all mentally enslaved by the cultures and environments we come from. Even those who "rebel" by choosing to live outside the morality, ethics, and ideals with which they were raised are still following a different kind of programming. So if we aren't talking about actual slavery, the forcible control of a persons actions to the benefit of the captor, then what is the point of bringing it up?

Edit:  I also noticed something about being reported for being off topic?  o.O  Hell, maybe I shouldn't be talking in this thread... I thought Anders/Mages/Tempars was the topic...  


You can't bring yourself to accept mages having their feelings,dreams and lives stripped away just for thinking about freedom as a form of slavery?

#158
AllThatJazz

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

(the writter can even bring the dead back to life).--- and what the hell is up with rpg games today when i have to tell a male character (NO for the love of god NO... i'm as straight as the bloody shortest distance between two points). can i get a start menu option saying i'm straight?


I didn't know being straight made you immune to being flirted by men who found you attractive.


I'm a straight woman, I don't object to being flirted with by women. I can always, you know, tell them I'm not interested. I don't get why it's such a big deal to be flirted with by someone who isn't a member of your gender of choice. Isn't it just the same as being flirted with by someone of the 'right' gender who you just don't fancy? 

#159
Emzamination

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NinjaRogue wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

NinjaRogue wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Who said or gave any indication that civilians were in the chantry when it went down? Every time my Hawke went into the chantry in Kirkwall, no one but the grand cleric and other chantry people were in it. I didn't see one civilian which leaves me to believe that there were no civilians in the chantry when it went. Another thing, this is a game people. It's not real life so if your Hawke agrees with Anders then so be it. Mine would have done the same thing. She was a mage. She heard the stories, she listened when a templar told a mage he'd rape her because she'd be made tranquil and she listened when the grand cleric said that she had no intention of stopping or interfering in the templar/mage conflict. Also to make a point that mages must be imprisoned for just being mages is ridiculous. Hawke's father was an apostate. We don't know what happened to him but it is the case that apostates would be murdered or made tranquil if they were caught. Fighting back was the only way to go and one more thing, the chantry was NOT a civilian building. It was the power in Kirkwall. The only problem my Hawke had with the whole thing was that Anders didn't trust her enough to tell her.


Meredith and the Templars where the power in Kirkwall....never once is the Chantry seen as the power. 


Meredith is the chantry's whipping girl

The chantry always has its fingers in the pie.


She invoked the Rite of Annulment without authorization, she tranquiled Mages that passed their Harrowing, she couldn't care a flip about the Chantry law.

To quote the Grand Cleric to Petrice and point it at Meredith

"And you demean his name."


There are a few good priest in the chantry but the grand cleric is small potatoes compared to the tyrant divine who calls exalted marches on any who dare to defy her influence and power.

Remember the dwarves in dao?


Last playthrough I did, I didn't make a Chantry in Orzammar :P




Au ^_^

#160
TJPags

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AllThatJazz wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

(the writter can even bring the dead back to life).--- and what the hell is up with rpg games today when i have to tell a male character (NO for the love of god NO... i'm as straight as the bloody shortest distance between two points). can i get a start menu option saying i'm straight?


I didn't know being straight made you immune to being flirted by men who found you attractive.


I'm a straight woman, I don't object to being flirted with by women. I can always, you know, tell them I'm not interested. I don't get why it's such a big deal to be flirted with by someone who isn't a member of your gender of choice. Isn't it just the same as being flirted with by someone of the 'right' gender who you just don't fancy? 


I think, with Anders, it's the rivalry hit when you turn him down.  He actually seems pissed off that you're not gay.

#161
TexasToast712

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AllThatJazz wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

(the writter can even bring the dead back to life).--- and what the hell is up with rpg games today when i have to tell a male character (NO for the love of god NO... i'm as straight as the bloody shortest distance between two points). can i get a start menu option saying i'm straight?


I didn't know being straight made you immune to being flirted by men who found you attractive.


I'm a straight woman, I don't object to being flirted with by women. I can always, you know, tell them I'm not interested. I don't get why it's such a big deal to be flirted with by someone who isn't a member of your gender of choice. Isn't it just the same as being flirted with by someone of the 'right' gender who you just don't fancy? 

I dont like being hit on by manly men who shouldnt be homosexual in the first place. Anders and Fenris are way to manly to be homosexual and its annoying to know that. Anders made is very clear on several occassions in Awakenings that he likes the ladies and then all of a sudden he is hitting on me in DAII. At least Fenris never blatantly hit on me.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 19 mars 2011 - 09:21 .


#162
Emzamination

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AllThatJazz wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

(the writter can even bring the dead back to life).--- and what the hell is up with rpg games today when i have to tell a male character (NO for the love of god NO... i'm as straight as the bloody shortest distance between two points). can i get a start menu option saying i'm straight?


I didn't know being straight made you immune to being flirted by men who found you attractive.


I'm a straight woman, I don't object to being flirted with by women. I can always, you know, tell them I'm not interested. I don't get why it's such a big deal to be flirted with by someone who isn't a member of your gender of choice. Isn't it just the same as being flirted with by someone of the 'right' gender who you just don't fancy? 


No its pretty awkward and embarassing for both parties towards the end

#163
Icy Magebane

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Emzamination wrote...
You can't bring yourself to accept mages having their feelings,dreams and lives stripped away just for thinking about freedom as a form of slavery?

I'm just not seeing how that overrides societal responsibilities.  And as I said, Kirkwall's Circle was an extreme case.  It was way too oppressive.  Griegor was nothing like Meredith, and he didn't run the Ferelden Circle that way.  The Circles work.  They keep the world from being overrun by abominations, which IMO is more important than every person being able to have absolute freedom.

#164
Emzamination

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Icy Magebane wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
You can't bring yourself to accept mages having their feelings,dreams and lives stripped away just for thinking about freedom as a form of slavery?

I'm just not seeing how that overrides societal responsibilities.  And as I said, Kirkwall's Circle was an extreme case.  It was way too oppressive.  Griegor was nothing like Meredith, and he didn't run the Ferelden Circle that way.  The Circles work.  They keep the world from being overrun by abominations, which IMO is more important than every person being able to have absolute freedom.


He sealed innocent mages inside with abominations without even attempting to mount a rescue effort because he was trying to save his own butt.

"I would lay down my life and the life of any mage to protect ferelden"

That doesn't sound like a slave master to you?

#165
NinjaRogue

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Icy Magebane wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
You can't bring yourself to accept mages having their feelings,dreams and lives stripped away just for thinking about freedom as a form of slavery?

I'm just not seeing how that overrides societal responsibilities.  And as I said, Kirkwall's Circle was an extreme case.  It was way too oppressive.  Griegor was nothing like Meredith, and he didn't run the Ferelden Circle that way.  The Circles work.  They keep the world from being overrun by abominations, which IMO is more important than every person being able to have absolute freedom.


"What I do with the black race, I do for the security of the Union" Abrahamn Lincoln, the man who is hailed as anti-slavery.

#166
Dave of Canada

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Emzamination wrote...

He sealed innocent mages inside with abominations without even attempting to mount a rescue effort because he was trying to save his own butt.

"I would lay down my life and the life of any mage to protect ferelden"



That sounds like the Knight-Commander doing his job, surprising I know.

That doesn't sound like a slave master to you?


Nope.

Protecting the lives of innocent citizens is better than risking than trying to save mages that might or might not be dead or possessed, so no. That doesn't sound like a slave master. He doesn't force mages to do anything against their will except remain in the tower, he doesn't sell mages and stuff.

Mages =/= Slaves

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2011 - 09:35 .


#167
AllThatJazz

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TJPags wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

 @TJ - that's a really interesting angle. 
I'm not sure I ever got the impression that Wynne was happy in the Circle. Had moments of happiness while she was there, sure - it must be difficult to spend a lifetime somewhere and never experience any happiness at all. I kind of thought that she'd accepted her life there (after being very angry about it in her younger days), but there was still some deep regret - namely the removal of her son, which must have been extraordinarily painful.



See, I saw her differently - that she had moments of unhappiness, but was on the whole happy.  She talked positively about being around people like her, about the camraderie she felt.  She certainly had freedom to travel, to engage in her research, as did other mages.  I really did get the impression she was, overall, happy there.


Well it does seem, regardless of feelings about the idea of the Circle in general, that the Kirkwall Circle is a much harsher place than Ferelden's Circle, largely because of Meredith I'm guessing. It would have been interesting to know a little more about her motivations. Was she betrayed by a Mage? Was she in love with a Mage who rejected her? Did a Mage harm/kill someone she cared about? Or has she always just been particularly devoted to her job/zealous in her duties? 

Er, OT:  Though I agree that they've essentially been one entity since they joined, Anders has struggled to retain his humanity, to be more than a walking embodiment of a cause or virtue or whatever. His romance with Hawke can be seen as an illustration of that. He actually says of the relationship that 'Justice doesn't like it, he sees you as a distraction', so there is part of Anders that is distinct and apart from Justice.

But ultimately, possession is what spirits/demons do. And there really isn't much difference between the two, except that demons embody things we consider to be vices and spirits embody virtues. Spirits might take longer to fully possess a host and be gentler about it and do it with the consent of the host, but spirits, like demons, are the distilled essence of a single concept or emotion. And a human being would have to be tremendously resilient, and have phenomenal willpower to not be consumed utterly by that. And we already know from Awakening, that those characteristics don't particularly describe Anders.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 19 mars 2011 - 09:40 .


#168
MortalEngines

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Sorry for the late response. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
Since you insisted:

n.

A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.


By your own words, the Templars are the MILITARY force of the order. The members of the chantry and those who come for prayer are civilians. It's like saying because I work for Nike I am responible for their use of child labour in some countries. Even though I have no direct influence into those events.


Considering the Order of Templars work directly for the Chantry of Andraste and control all fourteen Circles of Magi in Ferelden and can declare holy wars on their enemies, it's not the same thing.


So the chantry in Kirkwall = The chantry of the White Divine? All those lay sisters and priests, with near zero responibilities when it comes to mages, were guilty?


That's the reason Anders pulled his "stunt." Meredith ran Kirkwall and the Gallows Prison, but the Grand Cleric officially had authority. We saw that the Grand Cleric could get templars to "escort" the First Enchanter away in Year Seven.


Anders himself states the reason he did it was because the Grand Cleric was the only thing stopping the war. HE believe there was no middle groud, the Cleric believed otherwise and was keeping the peace. So he removed her. Just as Justice was going to remove that mage girl because she was in the way of their ideals.

Meredith honoured the Grand Clerics orders because she is well loved by the people and there was a huge crowd surrounding them. She couldn't exactly say no and you speak as if escorting Orsino away was a bad thing, when it was done to prevent a fight breaking out.

I think Anders and Justice became someone new when they symbiotically merged together, because they shared each other's experiences. They weren't really the same person after that experience. Since they both wanted to put an end to the plight of the mages, that was pushed forward when we consider what Anders did.


That doesn't justify his actions.


LobselVith8 wrote...

Fair enough. From "Hierarchy of the Circle" codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. "


Seeing as there is about 7 different Grand Cleric, each within a different circle and with different levels of influence, that isn't really a good use of evidence. Not to mention that the Templars run on a different Hierarchy anyway. I don't see what you're trying to dispute, the Grand Cleric clearly states WITHIN the game that she cannot take either side in the fight. Why you keep insisting she was taking the Templar side, I do not know.

The Order of Templars serve the Chantry, not the other way around.


Incorrect, the do not SERVE the Chantry, the are simply a different sect. Just as the Seekers are (who only respond to the Divine). Just like the Secret Service is apart of the Army but runs under a different system. The secret service has been known to commit terrible acts in many countries, would you condemn the whole Army for it?

Modifié par MortalEngines, 19 mars 2011 - 09:45 .


#169
AllThatJazz

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

He sealed innocent mages inside with abominations without even attempting to mount a rescue effort because he was trying to save his own butt.

"I would lay down my life and the life of any mage to protect ferelden"



That sounds like the Knight-Commander doing his job, surprising I know.

That doesn't sound like a slave master to you?


Nope.

Protecting the lives of innocent citizens is better than risking than trying to save mages that might or might not be dead or possessed, so no. That doesn't sound like a slave master. He doesn't force mages to do anything against their will except remain in the tower, he doesn't sell mages and stuff.

Mages =/= Slaves


But they are forced to do things against their will. They are forced to have largely no contact with their families, to do what they are told to do by the Templars for their entire lives, to never marry or have a family of their own, to never leave the Circle on pain of death or Tranquility. Maybe Imprisonment is, strictly speaking, a more accurate term than Slavery, but it's still a pretty harsh set of conditions to impose on people who have done nothing wrong. Then when you add into the mix the fact that some Templars abuse their already considerable power and the Chantry doesn't seem too bothered about it, and that there is an actual Law that says entire communities of mages can be eradicated if even a few are deemed enough of a threat, it's not a surprise that they are pissed off.

The Dalish seem to have the right of it. They have only one or two magic users per clan, and the clan hunters are responsible for 'dealing' with them if they start to pose a threat. 

I don't see why it would be such a difficult thing for the Chantry to set up 'Mage schools' - yes, the kids can be taught to control and use their power, Templars can stand guard in case of problems, but the students can still spend time with their families, and make some kind of attempt at a normal life. Why do they all have to be shipped off to the Circle to spend the rest of their lives in comparative isolation?

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 19 mars 2011 - 09:58 .


#170
Icy Magebane

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AllThatJazz wrote...

The Dalish seem to have the right of it. They have only one or two magic users per clan, and the clan hunters are responsible for 'dealing' with them if they start to pose a threat. 

I don't see why it would be such a difficult thing for the Chantry to set up 'Mage schools' - yes, the kids can be taught to control and use their power, Templars can stand guard in case of problems, but the students can still spend time with their families, and make some kind of attempt at a normal life. Why do they all have to be shipped off to the Circle to spend the rest of their lives in comparative isolation?


The only thing I can say about this is that the number of mages would depend on birth rates... so unless you just kill every mage until there's one or two per city (maybe that's what the Dalish do?), how can that be applied to human society?  I think the small number of mages in Dalish clans indicates that they either kill mages and it's not common knowledge, or that the number is just a representation.  Like... the clan is bigger than what you see, because otherwise the designers would have to use way too many npc models... so there aren't realy 2 mages in total, but "a small number."  Or something... I'd really prefer believing the Dalish don't just kill most of their mages, even if we don't actually see them.

As far as the mage school example... That's pretty much what Circles are, except you can't leave or have contact with your family.  Abominations are just too powerful... while I'm going to have to agree that it's weird that mages can't have visitors, and I have no idea why it's like that, I still don't think they should be allowed to wander around freely.  Even after training in a sheltered environment, if they were allowed to leave once they reach adulthood, what's to stop them from deciding they want to explore forbidden magic or contact demons?

#171
Emzamination

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

He sealed innocent mages inside with abominations without even attempting to mount a rescue effort because he was trying to save his own butt.

"I would lay down my life and the life of any mage to protect ferelden"



That sounds like the Knight-Commander doing his job, surprising I know.

That doesn't sound like a slave master to you?


Nope.

Protecting the lives of innocent citizens is better than risking than trying to save mages that might or might not be dead or possessed, so no. That doesn't sound like a slave master. He doesn't force mages to do anything against their will except remain in the tower, he doesn't sell mages and stuff.

Mages =/= Slaves


He has the right to give away his own life and the life of his templar underlings who are sworn to him and thats about the extent of it.

He however has no right to give away a mage's aka human/elf life as if they were cattle being put to slaughter.That statement alone showed just how much the lives he was suppose to be protecting meant to him and exactly why these rebellions are occuring.

I don't see why he wasn't blown to ash by the mages that survived once those doors were opened.

#172
Dave of Canada

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Icy Magebane wrote...

As far as the mage school example... That's pretty much what Circles are, except you can't leave or have contact with your family.


You can leave if given permission to, such as Finn in Witch Hunt leaving without asking permission because he had it granted. He just has to go back eventually. And he also has full contact with his family, enough that his clothes are stuff made by his parents to celebrate his Harrowing.

So the Circle can't be that bad. :P

#173
Dave of Canada

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Emzamination wrote...

He however has no right to give away a mage's aka human/elf life as if they were cattle being put to slaughter.That statement alone showed just how much the lives he was suppose to be protecting meant to him and exactly why these rebellions are occuring.


His job at the time was to protect the Circle's doors and make sure nothing went out, his job isn't to go in and risk killing all his men to save a few mages that might or might not exist. A lone abomination is enough to kill over 70 people when possessing a child (note: ignoring game mechanics) and takes a time to kill, what do you want him to do? 

Mages were his last priority at that time, he was awaiting reinforcements and preventing any of the mess from spilling out in Ferelden. Hundreds of abominations running loose in Ferelden would be a disaster.

In other words, he was doing his job. He just has correct priorities. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He himself didn't even know if there were mages alive in the tower.

I don't see why he wasn't blown to ash by the mages that survived once those doors were opened.


Because not all mages are insane.

#174
MortalEngines

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[quote]AllThatJazz wrote...
But they are forced to do things against their will. They are forced to have largely no contact with their families, to do what they are told to do by the Templars for their entire lives, to never marry or have a family of their own, to never leave the Circle on pain of death or Tranquility. [/quote]

Maybe in Kirkwall but Fereldan is a very different story. The Magi Origin shreds some light on this, templars have very little input in the life of the mages, they stand there to guard and make sure nothing goes sour in the circle. But most of what the mages do is dictates by the First Enchater and the Senior Enchanters, Gregoire pretty much sits back and allows Irving to take control, only stepping in if he feels something is wrong.

Even Tranquility on Jowan was no allowed till both Gregoire and Irving had signed for approval. The only restraints on Mages is to never marry and to never leave (though sometimes this is wavered anyway). I would hardly call this slavery, especially seeing as a mage having childern normally results on more mages. The lack of contact with family is also for the Mages sake, the circle has to become there life, removing family ties allows them to fully understand that the Circle is their life now and their past life no longer means anything. Also the fact that family members can be abusive (like Jowan's mother) or attempt to help the mages escape.

[quote]Maybe Imprisonment is, strictly speaking, a more accurate term than Slavery, but it's still a pretty harsh set of conditions to impose on people who have done nothing wrong.[/quote]

Not all mages are a) Completely Guiltless
                             B) Against the circle.

The fact is mages DO turn to blood magic, to abominition, DON'T go through something like a harrowing without the circle. All it takes is a mages emotions to run high or go amock and BAM a demon comes to make a contract, normally using mind control to persuade the mage.

Also you do know that some mages WANT to be come tranquil? There was that mage praying in the Magi Origins, talking about how she hated magic and wish to be rid of it. And considers becoming tranquil if you suggest it to her.

[quote]
Then when you add into the mix the fact that some Templars abuse their already considerable power and the Chantry doesn't seem too bothered about it, and that there is an actual Law that says entire communities of mages can be eradicated if even a few are deemed enough of a threat, it's not a surprise that they are pissed off.[/quote]

Power corruption happens everywhere, that is the a fault with society rather than exclusively the circles. The right of annulment can only be done at the LAST moment when everything has gone to hell (which in both cases it has been called upon so far, is the case). Not to mention Meredith actually broke protocol because she didn't wait for the Divine to authorize it. Many members of the Chantry and Templars are bothered by it (like Samson, Cullen and Thrask) and don't approve of it at all.

[quote]
The Dalish seem to have the right of it. They have only one or two magic users per clan, and the clan hunters are responsible for 'dealing' with them if they start to pose a threat. [/quote]

Two important facts, they have 2 mages, this is vastly different from many thousand in one country. Secondly, the Dalish are even harsher than the templars, rather than using tranquility you are killed right off the bat. (some people might say dying is better, but that's not the point).

[quotepI don't see why it would be such a difficult thing for the Chantry to set up 'Mage schools' - yes, the kids can be taught to control and use their power, Templars can stand guard in case of problems, but the students can still spend time with their families, and make some kind of attempt at a normal life. Why do they all have to be shipped off to the Circle to spend the rest of their lives in comparative isolation?[/quote]

Well the first half is what the Circle does anyway. As for the families, I explained the reasons before, Mages can never intergrete with normal life because firstly, alot of people fear and want them dead and secondly because it would make them more likely to fall into temptations. And it's not isolation, mages have formed their own groups and their own way of life. Many mages enjoy their life in the Chantry, heck even Bethany enjoys being at the circle and that's KIRKWALL'S CHANTRY. 

Modifié par MortalEngines, 19 mars 2011 - 10:37 .


#175
Icy Magebane

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

As far as the mage school example... That's pretty much what Circles are, except you can't leave or have contact with your family.


You can leave if given permission to, such as Finn in Witch Hunt leaving without asking permission because he had it granted. He just has to go back eventually. And he also has full contact with his family, enough that his clothes are stuff made by his parents to celebrate his Harrowing.

So the Circle can't be that bad. :P

This is a good point.  As far as I can tell, the only people who have these huge objections are those who want to do something bad once they get outside like Uldred, Decimus (blood mage leader from DA2), Jowan (blood mage + broke rules regarding dating Chantry sisters), and possibly the Warden.

Edit:  Jowan was a shady, but nice guy.  I use him in the example simply because he did break a lot of rules... not the least of which was poisoning the Arl.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 19 mars 2011 - 10:17 .