209 réponses à ce sujet

[DrGulag]

I don't see why it would be such a difficult thing for the Chantry to set up 'Mage schools' - yes, the kids can be taught to control and use their power, Templars can stand guard in case of problems, but the students can still spend time with their families, and make some kind of attempt at a normal life. Why do they all have to be shipped off to the Circle to spend the rest of their lives in comparative isolation?

You are not looking at the whole situation as if you were a normal citizen living in Thedas but as a player living in a rather free society (unless you live in some hellhole in which case you have my condolences lol).

Lets see what the average templar or citizen thinks.

Magic and mages are responsible for

-Corrupting the paradise
-The Maker abandoning everyone
-Creating the darkspawn and almost dooming the entire world

Mages

-Have immense power which can be lethal to anyone in close proximity. They can cast firestorms, shoot lightning from their hands and paralyze people with various spells (even the player can cast spells which have pretty nasty descriptions)
-Have the ability to summon demon-like creatures to assist them
-Have the ability to transform into a powerful fade demon at any second without doing so willingly. One of these demons can be powerful enough to destroy an entire city or village like RedCliffe when inside a small child. I would assume that some of the entities in fade might pose a serious threat to entire nations.
-Rule a nation (Tevinter Imperium) which uses normal people like cattle, sacrificing them for dark rituals.
-Seem to use blood magic quite often when angry which leads to tragedies.

So yeah.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 10:28 .

[AllThatJazz]

Icy Magebane wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

The Dalish seem to have the right of it. They have only one or two magic users per clan, and the clan hunters are responsible for 'dealing' with them if they start to pose a threat. 

I don't see why it would be such a difficult thing for the Chantry to set up 'Mage schools' - yes, the kids can be taught to control and use their power, Templars can stand guard in case of problems, but the students can still spend time with their families, and make some kind of attempt at a normal life. Why do they all have to be shipped off to the Circle to spend the rest of their lives in comparative isolation?

The only thing I can say about this is that the number of mages would depend on birth rates... so unless you just kill every mage until there's one or two per city (maybe that's what the Dalish do?), how can that be applied to human society?  I think the small number of mages in Dalish clans indicates that they either kill mages and it's not common knowledge, or that the number is just a representation.  Like... the clan is bigger than what you see, because otherwise the designers would have to use way too many npc models... so there aren't realy 2 mages in total, but "a small number."  Or something... I'd really prefer believing the Dalish don't just kill most of their mages, even if we don't actually see them.

As far as the mage school example... That's pretty much what Circles are, except you can't leave or have contact with your family.  Abominations are just too powerful... while I'm going to have to agree that it's weird that mages can't have visitors, and I have no idea why it's like that, I still don't think they should be allowed to wander around freely.  Even after training in a sheltered environment, if they were allowed to leave once they reach adulthood, what's to stop them from deciding they want to explore forbidden magic or contact demons?

There didn't seem to be very many mages in the Circle in Origins. I mean, the apprentice quarters and the like weren't exactly huge, so I'm guessing there aren't such vast numbers of them that there couldn't be some kind of 'care in the community' set up  Most places seem to have a Chantry and a handful of templars, after all.

And what's to stop anyone from trying to access dangerous forbidden power? Mages don't exactly have a monopoly on evil. You can instill the idea that Blood Magic and deals with demons are terrible things that will get you hunted down and killed, without assuming future guilt by restricting their freedoms and future.

Okay, I do understand that mages have more power than most, and therefore a mage gone bad is potentially a lot more harmful than say, a farmer gone bad (if Orsino turns into a Harvester, could an evil farmer turn into a Combine Harvester?) But of all the powerful villains we faced in Origins and DA2, by no means have they all been Magic users, and yet magic users are unique in that their entire community undergoes a sort of punishment because of their potential to cause harm.

[Emzamination]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

He however has no right to give away a mage's aka human/elf life as if they were cattle being put to slaughter.That statement alone showed just how much the lives he was suppose to be protecting meant to him and exactly why these rebellions are occuring.

His job at the time was to protect the Circle's doors and make sure nothing went out, his job isn't to go in and risk killing all his men to save a few mages that might or might not exist. A lone abomination is enough to kill over 70 people when possessing a child (note: ignoring game mechanics) and takes a time to kill, what do you want him to do? 

Mages were his last priority at that time, he was awaiting reinforcements and preventing any of the mess from spilling out in Ferelden. Hundreds of abominations running loose in Ferelden would be a disaster.

In other words, he was doing his job. He just has correct priorities. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He himself didn't even know if there were mages alive in the tower.

I don't see why he wasn't blown to ash by the mages that survived once those doors were opened.

Because not all mages are insane.

Thats the point! He didn't try to check

He saw an abomination and immediately called for the doors to be sealed and proclaimed no hope

His job is to kill abominations and protect the mages of the circle just as much if not more then fereldens and given that a lone warden and a old woman did what twenty templars who are specifically trained for that sort of thing couldn't I'd say he didn't put in any effort which brings us back to "I'd lay down my life and the lives of any mages"


Whats insane is if someone locks you in with near certain death while you beat on the door begging to be let out and you don't attempt to kill them the next time you meet.

[DrGulag]

He saw an abomination and immediately called for the doors to be sealed and proclaimed no hope

It was probably the right thing to do. That sloth demon was extremely powerful and would probably have killed a lot of people had it escaped.

It was wise to seal the perimeter and wait for reinforcements. That gave enough time for the mages/warden to clear the situation before purging the entire circle. 

A couple of templars would have stood no chance. The very fact that an abomination was running free inside the circle was already evidence enough that things had gone down the toilet.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 10:37 .

[Thrennion]

Justified != Necessary

What Ju/VeAnders did was definitely unjust, but most likely necessary.

[Emzamination]

DrGulag wrote...

He saw an abomination and immediately called for the doors to be sealed and proclaimed no hope

It was probably the right thing to do. That sloth demon was extremely powerful and would probably have killed a lot of people had it escaped.

It was wise to seal the perimeter and wait for reinforcements. That gave enough time for the mages/warden to clear the situation before purging the entire circle. 

A couple of templars would have stood no chance. The very fact that an abomination was running free inside the circle was already evidence enough that things had gone down the toilet.

So basically templars are pretty much useless in their own field of expertise <_<

Just another reason why the circle needs to be free of the dead weight.

[AllThatJazz]

DrGulag wrote...

I don't see why it would be such a difficult thing for the Chantry to set up 'Mage schools' - yes, the kids can be taught to control and use their power, Templars can stand guard in case of problems, but the students can still spend time with their families, and make some kind of attempt at a normal life. Why do they all have to be shipped off to the Circle to spend the rest of their lives in comparative isolation?

You are not looking at the whole situation as if you were a normal citizen living in Thedas but as a player living in a rather free society (unless you live in some hellhole in which case you have my condolences lol).

Lets see what the average templar or citizen thinks.

Magic and mages are responsible for

-Corrupting the paradise
-The Maker abandoning everyone
-Creating the darkspawn and almost dooming the entire world

Mages

-Have immense power which can be lethal to anyone in close proximity. They can cast firestorms, shoot lightning from their hands and paralyze people with various spells (even the player can cast spells which have pretty nasty descriptions)
-Have the ability to summon demon-like creatures to assist them
-Have the ability to transform into a powerful fade demon at any second without doing so willingly. One of these demons can be powerful enough to destroy an entire city or village like RedCliffe when inside a small child. I would assume that some of the entities in fade might pose a serious threat to entire nations.
-Rule a nation (Tevinter Imperium) which uses normal people like cattle, sacrificing them for dark rituals.
-Seem to use blood magic quite often when angry which leads to tragedies.

So yeah.

Actually, my local town is a bit of a dive. Being razed by mages wouldn't be all bad  I live in a village, though, which is very pretty.

Yes, more powerful mages can be a danger, but this doesn't mean that they necessarily are. Dalish Keepers protect their clans, they don't blast all their friends with fireballs. And I'm not arguing that mages should be completely unregulated, only that long term, it is perhaps a mistake to really ****** off a group of very powerful individuals by treating them as second class citizens.

If Connor could have been taught by a Circle endorsed Mage without being ripped away from his mother, maybe Isolde would not have hidden his talent away as she did. It was her fear of losing her son to the Circle forever which caused the Redcliffe problem.

And yes, the Tevinter Imperium is the single best argument why mages can never be allowed to have too much power, the Magisters represent the other extreme to the Qunari (leashing their Saarebas) or even Kirkwall, who seem to make their mages tranquil at the drop of a hat. There absolutely should be checks and balances. But that system is out of kilter. The pendulum has swung too far in favour of the Templars, especially in places like Kirkwall. Not allowing a group to have too much power does not equal savagely curtailing their rights and freedoms out of fear. 

Some mages use blood magic, yes. Many of those seem to do so as a response to the oppression they consider themselves to be suffering. Evil finds it far easier to gain a foothold with the desperate. So a lighter hand by the Templars/Chantry might well see fewer Blood Mages as a result.

[Dave of Canada]

Emzamination wrote...

Thats the point! He didn't try to check

He saw an abomination and immediately called for the doors to be sealed and proclaimed no hope

And if he pressed on, he could've been wiped out and the abominations would've been set loose on Ferelden. Reinforcements would mean nothing.

His job is to kill abominations and protect the mages of the circle just as much if not more then fereldens

His job is to watch mages and protect them from corruption, if it gets too bad he calls the Right of Anullment. Which he did. A Knight-Commander's priorities is Ferelden over the mages, which Gregoir does.

and given that a lone warden and a old woman did what twenty templars who are specifically trained for that sort of thing couldn't

Game mechanics. An untrained mage possessed by a demon was enough to kill over 70 people before the templar finally managed to kill her, the tower was filled with abominations that could do this (maybe more, since they possessed trained mages). If these trained individuals have trouble fighting demons, logically normal people barely stand a chance.

Wouldn't have been fun to see an abomination and get turned into ashes in 5 seconds, now would it?

I'd say he didn't put in any effort which brings us back to "I'd lay down my life and the lives of any mages"

Again, what do you want him to do? Charge in blindly, leave nobody to defend the door and let the abominations loose on Ferelden? If he actually found mages, who said they weren't possessed or blood mages? 

What is he supposed to do then? Go back to the front door with them and hope everything's fine or does he keep pressing on and fight through the abominations until he's either wiped out and killed, brainwashed and forced to obey or fails in his duty to protect the door?

Whats insane is if someone locks you in with near certain death while you beat on the door begging to be let out and you don't attempt to kill them the next time you meet.

There's no cases of this at all, Wynne and the group were defending each other from demons deeper in the tower and the rest of the mages were at the top of the tower being turned into abominations. Wynne never said anything like the templar prevented her from going in for example.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[DrGulag]

So basically templars are pretty much useless in their own field of expertise /images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

Not at all. Eventually they would have purged the circle.

Their main responsiblity is to safeguard society as a whole. Protecting magic practitioners from themselves is a secondary priority.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[AllThatJazz]

DrGulag wrote...

He saw an abomination and immediately called for the doors to be sealed and proclaimed no hope

It was probably the right thing to do. That sloth demon was extremely powerful and would probably have killed a lot of people had it escaped.

It was wise to seal the perimeter and wait for reinforcements. That gave enough time for the mages/warden to clear the situation before purging the entire circle. 

A couple of templars would have stood no chance. The very fact that an abomination was running free inside the circle was already evidence enough that things had gone down the toilet.

They weren't waiting for reinforcements, though. They were waiting for approval for the Rite of Annulment so they could charge in and execute everything that moved. 

And for that matter, how are a couple of grey wardens an old woman and a dog better equipped to deal with a tower full of demons than a platoon of templars who have been trained for this very thing for their entire adult lives? The Wardens aren't superheroes, they are just not in immediate danger of being corrupted by darkspawn. Greagoir could have survived the one corridor leading to Wynne and the apprentices, but he ultimately would have preferred to execute innocent mages than attempt to save them. And protecting mages from each other, or from those who would harm them is part of the Templar's job as well.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 19 mars 2011 - 10:55 .

[Dave of Canada]

AllThatJazz wrote...

They weren't waiting for reinforcements, though. They were waiting for approval for the Rite of Annulment so they could charge in and execute everything that moved.

They already called the Rite, they were waiting for reinforcements because if the templar charged in they'd be wiped out. When you talk with Wynne, she's shocked that the Rite was called but is glad to hear reinforcements haven't arrived yet.

[DrGulag]

Actually, my local town is a bit of a dive. Being razed by mages wouldn't be all badI live in a village, though, which is very pretty.

Yes, more powerful mages can be a danger, but this doesn't mean that they necessarily are. Dalish Keepers protect their clans, they don't blast all their friends with fireballs. And I'm not arguing that mages should be completely unregulated, only that long term, it is perhaps a mistake to really ****** off a group of very powerful individuals by treating them as second class citizens.

If Connor could have been taught by a Circle endorsed Mage without being ripped away from his mother, maybe Isolde would not have hidden his talent away as she did. It was her fear of losing her son to the Circle forever which caused the Redcliffe problem.

And yes, the Tevinter Imperium is the single best argument why mages can never be allowed to have too much power, the Magisters represent the other extreme to the Qunari (leashing their Saarebas) or even Kirkwall, who seem to make their mages tranquil at the drop of a hat. There absolutely should be checks and balances. But that system is out of kilter. The pendulum has swung too far in favour of the Templars, especially in places like Kirkwall. Not allowing a group to have too much power does not equal savagely curtailing their rights and freedoms out of fear.

Some mages use blood magic, yes. Many of those seem to do so as a response to the oppression they consider themselves to be suffering. Evil finds it far easier to gain a foothold with the desperate. So a lighter hand by the Templars/Chantry might well see fewer Blood Mages as a result.

Stop being so reasonable! You are either with the templars or the mages, remember what Meredith said l!

The problem is that Dragon Age 2 completely turned the whole thing upside down. I had a lot of sympathy for magic practitioners during my time in Origins.

This second installment deals too much in absolutes but it is what it is.

In Origins mages who had passed their harrowing could not be possessed by a fade demon. And it took powerful spells to summon fade creatures like happened in Warden's Keep.

In Dragon Age 2 every other blood mage has an army of shades helping him/her when things go haywire.

But then again. Maybe it's just Kirkwall. A plothole when asked from a future gamer so that DA2 could be more epic and edgy.

[Esternogligen]

TobiTobsen wrote...

I'll quote myself from another topic

TobiTobsen wrote...

I fail to see why so many people think of Anders as the Anders from Awakening. That Anders doesn't exist anymore! He ceased to exist when he choose to share his body with Justice. He said it himself. There is no more Anders or Justice, just the abomination Vengeance. And even then it seems like the part of Justice turned Vengeance is taking over the shared body. In a rivalmance Anders says he has blackouts, cant remember what he did, cant control when his "Justice" side shows up and so on.

At the beginning of Act3 or maybe even earlier than that the part of Anders that still was in the body of Vengeance has lost. Justice/Vengeance is in control now, even if his eyes don't glow. They have the same goal now: Vengeance. Pure and simple. You're with them or against them. No compromise.

This.

Anders didnt do it.
Justice didnt do it.

Vengeance did it.

[AllThatJazz]

DrGulag wrote...

Actually, my local town is a bit of a dive. Being razed by mages wouldn't be all badI live in a village, though, which is very pretty.

Yes, more powerful mages can be a danger, but this doesn't mean that they necessarily are. Dalish Keepers protect their clans, they don't blast all their friends with fireballs. And I'm not arguing that mages should be completely unregulated, only that long term, it is perhaps a mistake to really ****** off a group of very powerful individuals by treating them as second class citizens.

If Connor could have been taught by a Circle endorsed Mage without being ripped away from his mother, maybe Isolde would not have hidden his talent away as she did. It was her fear of losing her son to the Circle forever which caused the Redcliffe problem.

And yes, the Tevinter Imperium is the single best argument why mages can never be allowed to have too much power, the Magisters represent the other extreme to the Qunari (leashing their Saarebas) or even Kirkwall, who seem to make their mages tranquil at the drop of a hat. There absolutely should be checks and balances. But that system is out of kilter. The pendulum has swung too far in favour of the Templars, especially in places like Kirkwall. Not allowing a group to have too much power does not equal savagely curtailing their rights and freedoms out of fear.

Some mages use blood magic, yes. Many of those seem to do so as a response to the oppression they consider themselves to be suffering. Evil finds it far easier to gain a foothold with the desperate. So a lighter hand by the Templars/Chantry might well see fewer Blood Mages as a result.

Stop being so reasonable! You are either with the templars or the mages, remember what Meredith said l!

The problem is that Dragon Age 2 completely turned the whole thing upside down. I had a lot of sympathy for magic practitioners during my time in Origins.

This second installment deals too much in absolutes but it is what it is.

In Origins mages who had passed their harrowing could not be possessed by a fade demon. And it took powerful spells to summon fade creatures like happened in Warden's Keep.

In Dragon Age 2 every other blood mage has an army of shades helping him/her when things go haywire.

But then again. Maybe it's just Kirkwall. A plothole when asked from a future gamer so that DA2 could be more epic and edgy.

Hmmm. Actually I've been reading in another thread about the codex entries for the Enigma of Kirkwall, which seem to imply that Kirkwall has more demonic activity than other places, and that mages and non mages alike are therefore more vulnerable to this sort of thing. Maybe there shouldn't be a Kirkwall Circle at all! 


Oh yeah, I have a question, not remotely topic related (Helloooo? Topic? Where are you?). At one point in my mansion I get a conversation with Sandal and Bodahn about Sandal being haunted by an old woman with a 'nasty laugh'. Is there a quest for this, or is it just a random snippet of Sandal being weird?

Edit: And yes, it would have been lovely to have an option to side with the People of Kirkwall, rather than just the Templars or Mages, both of whom you have to kill anyway. 

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 19 mars 2011 - 11:07 .

[DrGulag]

I think Sandal might have a role in the next game.

I always assumed the old woman was Flemeth and the boy is not a human. Or why else is the fella standing next to hordes of slaughtered darkspawn in Origins and defeated them again in DA2.

Could be just comic relief....could be:bandit:

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 11:09 .

[Emzamination]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Thats the point! He didn't try to check

He saw an abomination and immediately called for the doors to be sealed and proclaimed no hope

And if he pressed on, he could've been wiped out and the abominations would've been set loose on Ferelden. Reinforcements would mean nothing.

His job is to kill abominations and protect the mages of the circle just as much if not more then fereldens

His job is to watch mages and protect them from corruption, if it gets too bad he calls the Right of Anullment. Which he did. A Knight-Commander's priorities is Ferelden over the mages, which Gregoir does.

and given that a lone warden and a old woman did what twenty templars who are specifically trained for that sort of thing couldn't

Game mechanics. An untrained mage possessed by a demon was enough to kill over 70 people before the templar finally managed to kill her, the tower was filled with abominations that could do this (maybe more, since they possessed trained mages). If these trained individuals have trouble fighting demons, logically normal people barely stand a chance.

Wouldn't have been fun to see an abomination and get turned into ashes in 5 seconds, now would it?

I'd say he didn't put in any effort which brings us back to "I'd lay down my life and the lives of any mages"

Again, what do you want him to do? Charge in blindly, leave nobody to defend the door and let the abominations loose on Ferelden? If he actually found mages, who said they weren't possessed or blood mages? 

What is he supposed to do then? Go back to the front door with them and hope everything's fine or does he keep pressing on and fight through the abominations until he's either wiped out and killed, brainwashed and forced to obey or fails in his duty to protect the door?

Whats insane is if someone locks you in with near certain death while you beat on the door begging to be let out and you don't attempt to kill them the next time you meet.

There's no cases of this at all, Wynne and the group were defending each other from demons deeper in the tower and the rest of the mages were at the top of the tower being turned into abominations. Wynne never said anything like the templar prevented her from going in for example.

His job is to protect and safeguard the mages as thrask reaffirms in Da2 and if he dies doing that job then so be it.If he didn't want to risk his life then he should've become a brother in the chantry.

No its story  not mechanics
Whether the hero helped the mages or the templars either way he/she purged the tower of all abominations and besides that wynne (an old woman) was inside killing abominations and holding them back from the doors so again I stand by statement of him not putting in any effort.


If he had any balls he would've taken a group of templars in with him to combat the abominations and left the others to keep the doors sealed.As for the mages I'll quote my warden "I'd rather spare maleficarum then kill an innocent".


Wynne was already inside when the doors were shut and you can tell she tried to get out with the others because she ask your warden why the templars let he/she through.

DrGulag wrote...

So basically templars are pretty much useless in their own field of expertise /images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

Not at all. Eventually they would have purged the circle.

Their main responsiblity is to safeguard society as a whole. Protecting magic practitioners from themselves is a secondary priority.

With duty comes responsibility and purging the circle because someone may or may not be possesed is a cowards way out.

[AllThatJazz]

DrGulag wrote...

I think Sandal might have a role in the next game.

I always assumed the old woman was Flemeth and the boy is not a human. Or why else is the fella standing next to hordes of slaughtered darkspawn in Origins and defeated them again in DA2.

Could be just comic relief....could be:bandit:

Hey, I hadn't even considered Flemeth. Good call. 

[LobselVith8]

MortalEngines wrote...

Maybe in Kirkwall but Fereldan is a very different story. The Magi Origin shreds some light on this, templars have very little input in the life of the mages, they stand there to guard and make sure nothing goes sour in the circle. But most of what the mages do is dictates by the First Enchater and the Senior Enchanters, Gregoire pretty much sits back and allows Irving to take control, only stepping in if he feels something is wrong.

I don't agree with your opinion here. We see Greagoir override Irving. He tells Irving to stop talking to the mage protagonist during the Harrowing, he's shuts down Duncan's request (i.e. who was sent on behalf of the King of Ferelden during a Blight), and all the Senior Enchanters are ready to initially side with Uldred at the promise of freedom from the Chantry as Wynne herself admits. If Irving had as much authority as you think, Greagoir would have been overridue when he only permitted seven mages to go to Ostagar despite the King's quest for more troops and Irving's support for more mages being sent to fight the darkspawn.

MortalEngines wrote...

Even Tranquility on Jowan was no allowed till both Gregoire and Irving had signed for approval. The only restraints on Mages is to never marry and to never leave (though sometimes this is wavered anyway). I would hardly call this slavery, especially seeing as a mage having childern normally results on more mages. The lack of contact with family is also for the Mages sake, the circle has to become there life, removing family ties allows them to fully understand that the Circle is their life now and their past life no longer means anything. Also the fact that family members can be abusive (like Jowan's mother) or attempt to help the mages escape.

This is inaccurate. Irving admits he never even saw the evidence in question against Jowan, and he reveals he has no say in the matter. He tells the mage protagonist that "if it were up to me, things would be different, but the Chantry..." specifically because First Enchanter Irving had no say over the matter.

MortalEngines wrote...

Not all mages are a) Completely Guiltless
                             Against the circle.

The fact is mages DO turn to blood magic, to abominition, DON'T go through something like a harrowing without the circle. All it takes is a mages emotions to run high or go amock and BAM a demon comes to make a contract, normally using mind control to persuade the mage.

Yet we have societies that don't endorse imprisoning mages as a rule, and they weren't destroyed by blood mages or abominations. We know the Dalish clans have mages, as do the Chasind tribes. We know that the town of Haven had free mages, and there was no magocracy there when Kolgrim (a non-mage Reaver) was in charge. We know the nation of Rivain has its witches and seers. Are they better than the Andrastian societies? Impossible to say when we know so little about them, but so far we're encountered abominations and the Circle hasn't really cut back on the number of them. The argument about blood magic and abominations in Kirkwall is pretty much a "chicken and egg" argument where we could argue in circles over whether it happens because of the Chantry and its templars, or the other way around, but I doubt we'll reach a consensus.

MortalEngines wrote...

Also you do know that some mages WANT to be come tranquil? There was that mage praying in the Magi Origins, talking about how she hated magic and wish to be rid of it. And considers becoming tranquil if you suggest it to her.

She's been indocturinated to see magic as evil and mages deserving of death, as she openly admits when you return to Ostagar during "A Broken Circle" and she prays for death.

MortalEngines wrote...

Power corruption happens everywhere, that is the a fault with society rather than exclusively the circles. The right of annulment can only be done at the LAST moment when everything has gone to hell (which in both cases it has been called upon so far, is the case). Not to mention Meredith actually broke protocol because she didn't wait for the Divine to authorize it. Many members of the Chantry and Templars are bothered by it (like Samson, Cullen and Thrask) and don't approve of it at all.

It's certainly not exclusive to the Chantry controlled Circles, but it's an issue that exists because the templars and the Chantry control the Circle. When we hear how a mage is getting raped because the templar is threatening to turn him tranquil if he says anything, it's a form of abuse that exists because of the system in place.

MortalEngines wrote...

Two important facts, they have 2 mages, this is vastly different from many thousand in one country. Secondly, the Dalish are even harsher than the templars, rather than using tranquility you are killed right off the bat. (some people might say dying is better, but that's not the point).

You're outright killed if you're an abomination, not if you're a mage. Remember Aneirin the Healer? Remember Velanna and Merrill wondering who the new First would be from their own clans?

MortalEngines wrote...

Well the first half is what the Circle does anyway. As for the families, I explained the reasons before, Mages can never intergrete with normal life because firstly, alot of people fear and want them dead and secondly because it would make them more likely to fall into temptations. And it's not isolation, mages have formed their own groups and their own way of life. Many mages enjoy their life in the Chantry, heck even Bethany enjoys being at the circle and that's KIRKWALL'S CHANTRY. 

Haven has mages and non-mages integrating. The Dalish clans and the Chasind tribes have people integrating. The people of Rivain refuse to be parted from their seers. Plenty of people in Kirkwall appreciated Anders because he was healing the sick and delivering babies, and were willing to kill Hawke to defend him. And I don't think avoiding abusive templars and realizing how little freedom she has means Bethany is happy at the Circle.

[AlexXIV]

Honestly, Anders could have been the same of Awakenings and even without Justice. It is something of a theme throughout the whole game that mages if you put too much pressure on them turn to desperate measures. The whole 'the more the mages rebelled, the harder the templar squeezed them'. It is a downward spiral to the worst possible end. Anders, not different than Orsino or other mages saw how hopeless their situation was. So he did what he saw his only chance to 'win' anything in this whole situation. He made sure that even if the mages perish, a message is sent to all other mages of Thedas. Justice spirit or not, it is the action of a desperate man.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 mars 2011 - 11:27 .

[Sabresandiego]

Anders became lost in hatred. He was disillusioned. I didnt kill him, but I banished him from my party for killing innocents.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Since you insisted:

n.

A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.
A person who does not belong to a particular group or engage in a particular activity.
[/quote]

By your own words, the Templars are the MILITARY force of the order. The members of the chantry and those who come for prayer are civilians. It's like saying because I work for Nike I am responible for their use of child labour in some countries. Even though I have no direct influence into those events. [/quote]

They belong to the Chantry, an organization a group that runs the military. By definition, they aren't civilians.

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the Order of Templars work directly for the Chantry of Andraste and control all fourteen Circles of Magi in Ferelden and can declare holy wars on their enemies, it's not the same thing.[/quote]

So the chantry in Kirkwall = The chantry of the White Divine? All those lay sisters and priests, with near zero responibilities when it comes to mages, were guilty? [/quote]

The Chantry of Kirkwall is governed by the Grand Cleric, who is second to the White Divine, according to the Hierarchy of the Chantry. All Grand Clerics work for the Divine.

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That's the reason Anders pulled his "stunt." Meredith ran Kirkwall and the Gallows Prison, but the Grand Cleric officially had authority. We saw that the Grand Cleric could get templars to "escort" the First Enchanter away in Year Seven. [/quote]

Anders himself states the reason he did it was because the Grand Cleric was the only thing stopping the war. HE believe there was no middle groud, the Cleric believed otherwise and was keeping the peace. So he removed her. Just as Justice was going to remove that mage girl because she was in the way of their ideals.

Meredith honoured the Grand Clerics orders because she is well loved by the people and there was a huge crowd surrounding them. She couldn't exactly say no and you speak as if escorting Orsino away was a bad thing, when it was done to prevent a fight breaking out. [/quote]

The Grand Cleric is second only to the Divine herself. Meredith had no authority to countermand the Grand Cleric. And I pointed out such authority by addressing that she orders templars to escort the First Enchanter to his cell.

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I think Anders and Justice became someone new when they symbiotically merged together, because they shared each other's experiences. They weren't really the same person after that experience. Since they both wanted to put an end to the plight of the mages, that was pushed forward when we consider what Anders did.[/quote]

That doesn't justify his actions. [/quote]

That's the entire debate we've been having, and we clearly aren't going to reach consensus on the issue any more than people agree on whether Loghain is a hero or a villain or whether the Chantry and its templars or the mages are right.

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Fair enough. From "Hierarchy of the Circle" codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. " [/quote]

Seeing as there is about 7 different Grand Cleric, each within a different circle and with different levels of influence, that isn't really a good use of evidence. Not to mention that the Templars run on a different Hierarchy anyway. I don't see what you're trying to dispute, the Grand Cleric clearly states WITHIN the game that she cannot take either side in the fight. Why you keep insisting she was taking the Templar side, I do not know. [/quote]

I never said she took the side of the templars, I address that she's a high ranking member of the Chantry - and the Order of Templars take their orders from the Chantry. It was within her power to resolve the dispute. She says she won't take a side, not that she's forbidden to.

[quote]MortalEngines wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Order of Templars serve the Chantry, not the other way around. [/quote]

Incorrect, the do not SERVE the Chantry, the are simply a different sect. Just as the Seekers are (who only respond to the Divine). Just like the Secret Service is apart of the Army but runs under a different system. The secret service has been known to commit terrible acts in many countries, would you condemn the whole Army for it? [/quote]

According to the codex entry Templars:

"Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry." The codex goes on to say lyrium use is regulated by the Chantry, so why do you assume they have nothing to do with each other?

[NinjaRogue]

Lyrium smugglers

[kaispan]

fathomless33 wrote...

Oh so its cool that it is a civilian church, with children and families gathering for prayer. Its not like that was the clerical office for the templars. He could have done the same thing and attacked the problem, he did not. He attacked innocent civilians. Unforgivable.

He attacked a symbol. The civilian lives were completely peripheral to his motivation... I don't believe Anders-as-Justice really considered them at all aside from how they added to the impact of his statement. I don't think it's easy to understand just how extreme his "single-mindedness" is in this context. I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying it's an excuse, but in his mind it needed to happen. He was not above sacrificing anything to reach his goal, including himself.

fathomless33 wrote...

If your sister, or mother, or brother was in that church praying or attending class, would you honestly feel that Anders was correct?

And didn't Anders say something along those lines? If it was your mother or brother that  was a mage and was being abused by templars/made Tranquil maybe that would make it easier to see from that perspective. I'm not trying to get super-defensive or anything (oops ) but regardless of right or wrong it seems quite clear what his reasoning was and how that was derived from Vengeance/Justice and I JUST DON'T GET WHY EVERYONE DOESN'T GET IT ugh I've been away from the internets too long. xD

Modifié par kaispan, 19 mars 2011 - 11:54 .

[Roadside]

I for one did not kill Anders. As Hawke, I played the game as a Mage, thus it puts me very high on Meridith hit list. I was not happy that Anders blow up the Chantry and killed innocent people, however I consider Anders a friend who stickby my side from DAO to now. Hard to see how Justice could take a wrong path since at the end of DAO he was doing humanitarin work protecting the down trodden. DA II is a little too gloomy and just didn't mesh right with the story lines of DAO and DAA (evne thouh its been told by Verric). Meridith had to go, but it was the Maker who gave the final hit, why? and why siding with Merill have to ended up with cleansing all the Dalish in the Camp. Bioware: This was too dark and the signature edition was no better than buying the regular copy.

[nicethugbert]

Maybe we should call him Janders?