696 réponses à ce sujet

[szsleepy]

I've heard both sides of the argument on this forum, and I'm still convinced that half of you out there have no idea what you're talking about when you say that you think that mages are fine.

To start, I want to say that I KNOW that the game is meant to be played with a full party of characters and that the CCC system was put in place for a reason.  Even still, I want to prove to you that mages are completely and totally gimped compared to the other two.

The rules:

1) Start a new game (as a mage, even on Casual difficulty, it doesn't matter)
2) After your first conversation with Varric in High Town, leave the area and go immediately to Gamlen's House in Low Town.
3) From here, continue as you normally would, completing quests with only the main character in the party.
4) During companion quests, use only the locked companion, and immediately remove the companion from the party when the quest is done.

-- Once you're sick and tired of dying, try it again with a rogue.  And again after that with a warrior.

This should prove to ANYONE, beyond any shadow of a doubt that mages are simply not on par with the other classes.

I'll be surprised if anyone actually does this challenge and comes away thinking mages are fine.

[candyrehab]

kinda beat the purpose of mages, which is setting up the battlespace for companion to exploit. Without companions mages are totally useless because they're unable to deal damage.

[szsleepy]

My point is that the class simply cannot stand on it's own compared to the other two. Do the challenge. See for yourself.

Unless you're afraid. Are you scared?



Also, on a side note, I would argue up and down that the warrior and rogue are far more capable of "setting up the battlespace" with more talents for that purpose than the mage has.  Mage has Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Petrify.  That's IT.

Warriors have Sunder (PASSIVE), Cleave, Pommel Strike, Tremor and Devour.
Rogues have Pinning Shot, Fatiguing Fog, Confusion, and Disorienting Criticals (PASSIVE)

Modifié par szsleepy, 19 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[templar706]

szsleepy wrote...

My point is that the class simply cannot stand on it's own compared to the other two. Do the challenge. See for yourself.

Unless you're afraid. Are you scared?



Also, on a side note, I would argue up and down that the warrior and rogue are far more capable of "setting up the battlespace" with more talents for that purpose than the mage has.  Mage has Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Petrify.  That's IT.

Oh so afraid <_<

You realise this defeats the whole point of mages, who cannot simply survive on their own. They are squishy like that. Mages heavily rely on cross class combos and tanks to take damage for them. Then they support their companions or deal heavy dps. Of course they cant stand on their own, thats natural (unless you make a battlemage bloodmage build). Your argument makes no sense...

Modifié par templar706, 19 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[szsleepy]

templar706 wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

My point is that the class simply cannot stand on it's own compared to the other two. Do the challenge. See for yourself.

Unless you're afraid. Are you scared?



Also, on a side note, I would argue up and down that the warrior and rogue are far more capable of "setting up the battlespace" with more talents for that purpose than the mage has.  Mage has Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Petrify.  That's IT.

Oh so afraid <_<

You realise this defeats the whole point of mages, who cannot simply survive on their own. They are squishy like that. Mages heavily rely on cross class combos and tanks to take damage for them. Then they support their companions or deal heavy dps. Your argument makes no sense...

First, you make my point exactly.  The mage CANNOT survive on his own.  The rogue and warrior, on the other hand, CAN. 

Second, once again, the mage only has 3 active BRITTLE talents, compared to the four, or five that warriors and rogues have (also, each of them also has a PASSIVE that grants a chance on every attack to cause DISORIENT or STAGGERED).

Third, I would argue all day that the mage can ever deal "heavy dps".

Do the challenge.  See for yourself. 

Modifié par szsleepy, 19 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[ezrafetch]

Yeah, not sure how being unable to solo a game really screams "this sucks!"  DA2 was designed around having people around you.  Playing the game in an unnatural scenario and seeing a lack of success does not mean the class is actually bad.  It just means that in a scenario it was not designed for, it's not succeeding, which is more than perfectly valid since it WASN'T, in fact, designed for it.

If you're really concerned about managing the battle, it's hard to not take Force Mage. It just oozes CC. I'd say Rogues are worse at crowd control than Mages by far, Warriors are better but it's impossible to out-CC a good mage.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 19 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[Eilati]

I really don't get this, do you want a Mage with the surrvivability of a Tank/high def warrior?
Thats not really the point of a mage class is it?

'Glasscannon' comes to mind.

That said, I do think the 'autoattack' Staff Blasts are really really bad Damage early in the game, noticeably so on Hard.

[szsleepy]

ezrafetch wrote...

Yeah, not sure how being unable to solo a game really screams "this sucks!"

If you're really concerned about managing the battle, it's hard to not take Force Mage. It just oozes CC. I'd say Rogues are worse at crowd control than Mages by far, Warriors are better but it's impossible to out-CC a good mage.

Crowd control?  Sure, a Force Mage can pack em all nice and tight like, but the CC a rogue is capable of outshines a mage in every way.  Let's take a loot at the talents, shall we?

Mage CC: Cone of Cold, Petrify, Crushing Prison, Horror, Sleep, Pull of the Abyss, Gravitic Ring, and Hemorrhage.  Three of these are only single target, and only three don't need upgrades to be considered "crowd control"

Rogue CC: Pinning Shot, Fatiguing Fog, Confusion, Miasmic Flask, Armistice, Goad, Brand, and Throw the Gauntlet. Only two of these are single target, and none of them require upgrades to provide crowd control.

[szsleepy]

Eilati wrote...

I really don't get this, do you want a Mage with the surrvivability of a Tank/high def warrior?
Thats not really the point of a mage class is it?

'Glasscannon' comes to mind.

That said, I do think the 'autoattack' Staff Blasts are really really bad Damage early in the game, noticeably so on Hard.

There's no cannon about it.  Mage damage is pathetic compared to what rogues and warriors are capable of.  Even a sword & board tank can put out more damage than a mage.

[Ace Attorney]

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

[termokanden]

To be fair though, some of those rogue CC abilities are horrible. Pinning Shot is a joke. Miasmic Flask doesn't last all that long. Throw the Gauntlet requires your to be a Duelist - the worst rogue specialization.

[Boopie-Ne]

What's the point of CC if the challenge is to play it solo?

[szsleepy]

Boopie-Ne wrote...

What's the point of CC if the challenge is to play it solo?

CC is your only chance of ever succeeding at solo-play, and quite frankly...  To ANYONE above, if you can actually make it to level 7 to get your first specialization as a mage, I'll give you a cookie.  The other 90% of you won't make it past level 6.

[Ace Attorney]

T3hAnubis wrote...

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...

I've heard both sides of the argument on this forum, and I'm still convinced that half of you out there have no idea what you're talking about when you say that you think that mages are fine.

To start, I want to say that I KNOW that the game is meant to be played with a full party of characters and that the CCC system was put in place for a reason.  Even still, I want to prove to you that mages are completely and totally gimped compared to the other two.

The rules:

1) Start a new game (as a mage, even on Casual difficulty, it doesn't matter)
2) After your first conversation with Varric in High Town, leave the area and go immediately to Gamlen's House in Low Town.
3) From here, continue as you normally would, completing quests with only the main character in the party.
4) During companion quests, use only the locked companion, and immediately remove the companion from the party when the quest is done.

-- Once you're sick and tired of dying, try it again with a rogue.  And again after that with a warrior.

This should prove to ANYONE, beyond any shadow of a doubt that mages are simply not on par with the other classes.

I'll be surprised if anyone actually does this challenge and comes away thinking mages are fine.

This is a really terrible method of "proving" an argument, especially when the class is pretty much based around the group.  Even then, you can have builds that can solo much of Nightmare through a lot of kiting.  You aren't "proving" anything except that if you want your gameplay to be a snails pace, you should play a solo Rogue who is constantly running away and stealthing.

kinda beat the purpose of mages, which is setting up the battlespace for
companion to exploit. Without companions mages are totally useless
because they're unable to deal damage.

Is that why my Mage can easily solo any of the dragons?

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[szsleepy]

T3hAnubis wrote...

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

Yeah, a party RPG where every mage is a HARD CARRY. 

My point is simple.  In BioWare's rush to make the game "visceral" (read: console friendly) they did an absolutely amazing job with the Warrior and Rogue.  The mage was minced. 

On his own, or in a party, Magehawke is gimp.  Do the challenge.  Experience the difference yourself.

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...


This is a really terrible method of "proving" an argument, especially when the class is pretty much based around the group.  Even then, you can have builds that can solo much of Nightmare through a lot of kiting.  You aren't "proving" anything except that if you want your gameplay to be a snails pace, you should play a solo Rogue who is constantly running away and stealthing.

Do the challenge.  You have no clue.

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

Yeah, a party RPG where every mage is a HARD CARRY. 

My point is simple.  In BioWare's rush to make the game "visceral" (read: console friendly) they did an absolutely amazing job with the Warrior and Rogue.  The mage was minced. 

On his own, or in a party, Magehawke is gimp.  Do the challenge.  Experience the difference yourself.

Gravitic says "Hi, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and to stop trying to Winter's Breath and Fireball everything".

Do the challenge.  You have no clue.

Considering I solo dragons, yeah I do Mr. All Knowing.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...



Is that why my Mage can easily solo any of the dragons?

Once again...  HARD CARRY.  Let's see you solo the Bone Pit dragon while you do my challenge.  If you can get there, that is.

[Ace Attorney]

szsleepy wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

Yeah, a party RPG where every mage is a HARD CARRY. 

My point is simple.  In BioWare's rush to make the game "visceral" (read: console friendly) they did an absolutely amazing job with the Warrior and Rogue.  The mage was minced. 

On his own, or in a party, Magehawke is gimp.  Do the challenge.  Experience the difference yourself.

The challenge proves donkey ****. Mages are based on parties, a fact. They heal, support, and buff. Denying it makes you ignorant.

[Heather Cline]

These people make a lot of sense. You can't CC solo. It's just not possible. Furthermore, mages aren't meant to be tanks and not meant to be direct damage dealers. They are meant to crowd control, meant to dish out damage indirectly while a warrior or rogue or both wade through a crowd and rip them apart.

Mages aren't meant for solo play in this game.

Yes in DA:O if you picked arcane warrior spec class and spirit healer class you could go around tanking and doing it solo but even then it was damned hard. Also in DA:O the arcane warrior class build along with a blood mage build with say Leliana as a ranger so she has a pet to call upon where you can drain life energy from it to heal yourself, was a lot better for the Mage Tank.

But in DA2 you can't do that here not without a major specialization as stated above as a blood mage/battle mage build and even then the game will be difficult, because a blood mage requires that you have at least 1 companion to siphon life from because they are immune to heal spells and potions.

Seriously, mages aren't gimped, they are played differently.

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...

Gravitic says "Hi, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and to stop trying to Winter's Breath and Fireball everything".

HARD CARRY.  If you can hit level 7 and purchase Fist of the Maker, I'll **** your ****.  Do the challenge.  Put up, or shut up.

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...



Is that why my Mage can easily solo any of the dragons?

Once again...  HARD CARRY.  Let's see you solo the Bone Pit dragon while you do my challenge.  If you can get there, that is.

I have soloed the BONE PIT dragon on Nightmare, but thanks for your misinformed crying anyway.  The entire reason Nightmare is trivial everywhere is because of my Mages.

See how well you can do Night Lies without a single Mage.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 04:23 .

[szsleepy]

Heather Cline wrote...

Mages aren't meant for solo play in this game.

You miss my point entirely.  Where the mage simply cannot solo the game, ROGUES AND WARRIORS CAN.

I sense disparity in the force.

Modifié par szsleepy, 19 mars 2011 - 04:22 .

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...

I HAVE soloed the Bone Pit dragon on Nightmare, but thanks for your misinformed crying anyway.

Bull****.