Aller au contenu

Photo

Proof mages are gimp - A simple challenge


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
696 réponses à ce sujet

#226
Zan Mura

Zan Mura
  • Members
  • 476 messages

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Junri wrote...

Mages were OP in Origins. In DA2, I feel this balance is restored and also FYI, the hardest class to play is a rogue because you you don't have skills like Unshakable which give you +100 fortitude. With archers constantly pinning you down a rogue can't do ****. I don't get where OP sees that rogue can solo the game, its impossible.


Stealth/Decoy. :-)

You can also get gears which make you immune to knockbacks.


I found my rogue playthrough easy enough. Strength provides you with Fortitude to resist those common knockbacks from arrows. You can respec out of that later. Combined with a few +Fortitude items you become immune to the basic interruptions easily enough. Of course, same as with any non-player mage, proper aggro management removes the need for that almost completely. And a properly built rogue has such an insane advantage over assassins, lieutenants and bosses with their completely insane single-target damage output, that it makes up for a great deal anyway.

There's a ring that makes you immune to knockback and stun too, available in mid game.

#227
Graunt

Graunt
  • Members
  • 1 444 messages
Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Modifié par Graunt, 21 mars 2011 - 06:18 .


#228
BloodyRaw

BloodyRaw
  • Members
  • 118 messages

Graunt wrote...

Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


 Man fury owns!! Big Numbers!

#229
Nphect

Nphect
  • Members
  • 47 messages

BloodyRaw wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


 Man fury owns!! Big Numbers!


E-E-E-E-EXPLOSIONS

BLA-BLA-BOOM

On a more serious note, Mages are perfectly fine. They aren't intended to be good early-game (apparent from the fact that a lot of your utility and damage doesn't show up until later and your only useful moves are Winter's Grasp and Heal) but go into Act 3 expecting to cruise control on Nightmare without a Mage and you'll have fun getting stomped on like a ****ing rug. 

Point being: Mages are end-game, Rogues are mid/late and Warriors are early/mid (I personally saw my Warrior's damage stop being godmode in Act 2 unless I abused CCC and focus-fired debuffed targets)

#230
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Graunt wrote...

Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Image IPB

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Love those explosions. But they are better done by a character on auto Tactics, unless you are willing to pause a lot. Stagger on bosses last extremely short - the AI times it much better than a human.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 21 mars 2011 - 06:50 .


#231
Graunt

Graunt
  • Members
  • 1 444 messages

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Love those explosions. But they are better done by a character on auto Tactics, unless you are willing to pause a lot. Stagger on bosses last extremely short - the AI times it much better than a human.


The only tactics that work are with Chain Lightning and Hemorrhage, and for Hemorrhage to work I need to be controlling another character.  Walking bomb is so situational that you have to set that up manually unless you want to kill your group (or at least the tank).  Now that I think about it though, I may try another run where I stack spirit resistance on Aveline and just use Walking Bomb on top of her.  Seems like you only need three runes to be 99% resistant to anything.

Fist of the Maker doesn't work with tactics either because you'll always hit your tank with it.  The one thing I really hate about Mages is the fact that Bioware thought all the "fancy" flourishes would make them seem "exciting", but all they do is completely interfere with CCC.  The AI doesn't have this issue.

Nphect wrote...
On a more serious note, Mages are perfectly fine. They aren't intended to be good early-game (apparent from the fact that a lot of your utility and damage doesn't show up until later and your only useful moves are Winter's Grasp and Heal) but go into Act 3 expecting to cruise control on Nightmare without a Mage and you'll have fun getting stomped on like a ****ing rug. 

Point being: Mages are end-game, Rogues are mid/late and Warriors are early/mid (I personally saw my Warrior's damage stop being godmode in Act 2 unless I abused CCC and focus-fired debuffed targets)


I really wouldn't say I can completely agree with this for a few reasons.  Nightmare was crusie control for the most part on my first Mage playthrough up until the Rock Wraith, and then I literally hit a brick wall because the build I had been using to mop the floor with everything except Qunari (which is easily rectified by just brining Merill).  I had also screwed myself over with gold and was short a few and had to go the Friend in Low Places route, which I didn't want to do so I started over.  

On top of that, I was extremely short on potions when I arrived at the Wraith.  Basically to quote Illidan, "I was not prepared".  On my second playthrough, I ended up doing practically an identical build, but brought four respec potions along -- pretty much none of the characters had an optimal build for the boss since what they had was for trash wave after trash wave.  After having beaten him a few times, it would be easy enough for me to alter my build so that I wouldn't have to respec with any of the characters, but they would be more "middleground" than anything until after ACT 1.

By the time I hit ACT 3 Hawke had already essentially plateaued and most of the abilities I were getting were spells that would have been more useful in the earlier levels, but since I had made it this far without them and had already been doing so well, I didn't feel like I was gaining much.  The single largest boost I gained was getting the rank 1 heal at like level 18, and knowing what I know now, I would definitely get that MUCH earlier.  

Now if you're running a single Mage in your group, then I can imagine things will look a lot differently to you, because you'll want to get the group buffs/heals first and the damage after.  Warriors and Rogues don't cap out early though, not by a long shot.  They just get better and better, and still have even more room to grow, but not enough skill points. 

In the end it comes down to your particular playstyle.  I would honestly much rather be playing a Two-Handed Warrior, because I enjoy that playstyle a little more, but Nightmare makes it a micromanagement hell unless you go the Berserker route, and if you're doing that, it doesn't really even "begin" until after level 14.  Warriors and Rogues do not have to pause anywhere near as much as a Mage and can be played more like an action game.  

A Mage (in a group) on the other hand has to pause constantly to make sure spells are lined up correctly and that the group is coordinating everything at the same time.  They are also more about manipulation and control, and I enjoy preventing things from moving, or flinging enemies that are attacking me aside.  They aren't nearly as instantly gratifying as a Warrior, but they are definitely more of a "sure thing" in practically all areas of the game.  Their damage is also terrible against single targets unless you're using stagger or disorient hits, but that doesn't mean anything if you can still come out on top.  Mages are all about options.  Warriors and Rogues are entirely one dimensional -- which isn't a sleight on them, it's just you can't expect a class that can "do everything" to be anywhere near as good in the area that the others are specialized in.

Modifié par Graunt, 21 mars 2011 - 08:45 .


#232
Stammwuerze

Stammwuerze
  • Members
  • 68 messages

Nphect wrote...
On a more serious note, Mages are perfectly fine. They aren't intended to be good early-game (apparent from the fact that a lot of your utility and damage doesn't show up until later and your only useful moves are Winter's Grasp and Heal) but go into Act 3 expecting to cruise control on Nightmare without a Mage and you'll have fun getting stomped on like a ****ing rug. Point being: Mages are end-game, Rogues are mid/late and Warriors are early/mid (I personally saw my Warrior's damage stop being godmode in Act 2 unless I abused CCC and focus-fired debuffed targets)


I am testing a spirit/entrophy/force mage on hard. Stil in Act 1 , some fights are really difficult.
I would suggest to always start with a heavy primal/entrophy build and switch at the end of Act 1
to the real one.
It's a pain in the ass having no AoE or to few single target nuker. Walking Bomb without Gravity/Pull is sometimes really hard to use.  

Modifié par Stammwuerze, 21 mars 2011 - 11:25 .


#233
Graunt

Graunt
  • Members
  • 1 444 messages

Stammwuerze wrote...

Nphect wrote...
On a more serious note, Mages are perfectly fine. They aren't intended to be good early-game (apparent from the fact that a lot of your utility and damage doesn't show up until later and your only useful moves are Winter's Grasp and Heal) but go into Act 3 expecting to cruise control on Nightmare without a Mage and you'll have fun getting stomped on like a ****ing rug. Point being: Mages are end-game, Rogues are mid/late and Warriors are early/mid (I personally saw my Warrior's damage stop being godmode in Act 2 unless I abused CCC and focus-fired debuffed targets)


I am testing a spirit/entrophy/force mage on hard. Stil in Act 1 , some fights are really difficult.
I would suggest to always start with a heavy primal/entrophy build and switch at the end of Act 1
to the real one.
It's a pain in the ass having no AoE or to few single target nuker. Walking Bomb without Gravity/Pull is sometimes really hard to use.  


Are you doing this solo, or in a group?  Because in a group, especially below Nightmare I could see how you could easily get Walking Bomb to work and how to get very large clusters together without any of the Force abilities.

Modifié par Graunt, 21 mars 2011 - 03:13 .


#234
Amioran

Amioran
  • Members
  • 1 416 messages

Graunt wrote...

Stammwuerze wrote...

Nphect wrote...
On a more serious note, Mages are perfectly fine. They aren't intended to be good early-game (apparent from the fact that a lot of your utility and damage doesn't show up until later and your only useful moves are Winter's Grasp and Heal) but go into Act 3 expecting to cruise control on Nightmare without a Mage and you'll have fun getting stomped on like a ****ing rug. Point being: Mages are end-game, Rogues are mid/late and Warriors are early/mid (I personally saw my Warrior's damage stop being godmode in Act 2 unless I abused CCC and focus-fired debuffed targets)


I am testing a spirit/entrophy/force mage on hard. Stil in Act 1 , some fights are really difficult.
I would suggest to always start with a heavy primal/entrophy build and switch at the end of Act 1
to the real one.
It's a pain in the ass having no AoE or to few single target nuker. Walking Bomb without Gravity/Pull is sometimes really hard to use.  


Are you doing this solo, or in a group?  Because in a group, especially below Nightmare I could see how you could easily get Walking Bomb to work and how to get very large clusters together without any of the Force abilities.


Well, anything below Nightmare the Mage is absolutely the most damaging class of all, if you have a decent build that focus on CCC.

Nightmare is all another thing. They are still not "gimped" as people say, but surely the FF hurts them a bit when using some CCCs. More, below nightmare you can use Aveline and Fenris togheter, for example, to have a galore of staggers to use everytime, on top of disoriented by Varric (that with Virulent Walking Bomb + Pull or Gravitic - it destroys everything).

EDIT: Naturally Pull or Gravitic helps with WB, but it's not indispensable. There are many ways to keep enemies in place below Nightmare difficulty.

Modifié par Amioran, 21 mars 2011 - 04:14 .


#235
Stammwuerze

Stammwuerze
  • Members
  • 68 messages

Graunt wrote...

Are you doing this solo, or in a group?  Because in a group, especially below Nightmare I could see how you could easily get Walking Bomb to work and how to get very large clusters together without any of the Force abilities.


I am trying in a group. I want to test the build on hard before going nightmare. It seems, that I have to disable automatic taunt in the tactics from Aveline. It would be very kind, if you could tell me your tactics to group enemies.

#236
nightscrawl

nightscrawl
  • Members
  • 7 475 messages

szsleepy wrote...

My point is that the class simply cannot stand on it's own compared to the other two.


You however, are missing Candy's point that mages are not supposed to stand on their own.

#237
Gage123

Gage123
  • Members
  • 119 messages
But in Baldur's Gate they doooooooo

#238
Grumpy Old Wizard

Grumpy Old Wizard
  • Members
  • 2 581 messages

nightscrawl wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

My point is that the class simply cannot stand on it's own compared to the other two.


You however, are missing Candy's point that mages are not supposed to stand on their own.


If mages are going to be glass they also need to be cannons. Right now they are pop guns.

#239
Gage123

Gage123
  • Members
  • 119 messages
Mages are glass BBGuns

#240
nuclearpengu1nn

nuclearpengu1nn
  • Members
  • 1 648 messages
why does people like soloing DA 2 you miss out on friendship/rivalry points and it impacts the story of the game a great deal

#241
Xaln

Xaln
  • Members
  • 12 messages
Read the first page, not the 9 afterwords, but here are my 2 cents:

The challenge is stupid. Mages aren't meant to go toe to toe, they can't take damage. Rogues can stealth up, and warriors can beast.

The simple fact that IN THE GAME during the loading screen it SAYS that mages can deliver devastating spells but DRAW ENEMY ATTENTION and they are VULNERABLE TO DAMAGE.

Or something along those lines. Yes, mages cannot take damage and they need a tank. Good job sherlock, way to point out the obvious.

::EDIT:: Well, it appears that has already been said, lol. I still stand by the point. I found that during the beginning/middle part of the game my hawke was crappy in dealing damage compared to say--fenris, but during act III, he became much much more powerful. Noticibly so.

Modifié par Xaln, 21 mars 2011 - 08:22 .


#242
Teknor

Teknor
  • Members
  • 724 messages

GreyWarden36 wrote...

why does people like soloing DA 2 you miss out on friendship/rivalry points and it impacts the story of the game a great deal


Ego boosting mostly.

#243
sevenplusone

sevenplusone
  • Members
  • 191 messages

Teknor wrote...

GreyWarden36 wrote...

why does people like soloing DA 2 you miss out on friendship/rivalry points and it impacts the story of the game a great deal


Ego boosting mostly.


Not really. I love soloing, it's a lot of fun, and I like helping people by showing them how to do it.

#244
Teknor

Teknor
  • Members
  • 724 messages

sevenplusone wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Ego boosting mostly.


Not really. I love soloing, it's a lot of fun, and I like helping people by showing them how to do it.


I said mostly. It is especially evident when they whine why they can't solo as a class.

#245
SuicidalBaby

SuicidalBaby
  • Members
  • 2 244 messages

I said mostly. It is especially evident when they whine why they can't solo as a class.

hes using soloing to justify a poor premise. its not truly about soloing.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 21 mars 2011 - 08:45 .


#246
Stammwuerze

Stammwuerze
  • Members
  • 68 messages
Where does this "mages cannot stand on their own" come from anyway? I have a hard time with assassins, that's a given, but neither my warrior or my rogue are doing a walk in the park against them.

#247
godlike13

godlike13
  • Members
  • 1 701 messages
I would say mages are gimped a bit, while rogues are now a bit op. Still love my mage though.

#248
wowpwnslol

wowpwnslol
  • Members
  • 1 037 messages

godlike13 wrote...

I would say mages are gimped a bit, while rogues are now a bit op. Still love my mage though.


Rogues have big weaknesses. Crappy fortitude, low HP, low armor, mediocre AoE. There are many trade offs for their high single target damage,

#249
nicethugbert

nicethugbert
  • Members
  • 5 209 messages
You can nightmare solo mages in Magicka. Plus, make your own spells. It also has 4 player coop.

#250
FrozenDawn

FrozenDawn
  • Members
  • 87 messages
a rogue on nightmare is absolutely and totally utterly unable to stand on his own... unless u kite with a bow maybe, but u have no way of taking out enemies of the fight, and u get staggered on every hit.

Mages can at least aoe and the earth and lighting tree is really good plus u can get crushing prison, tempest is also very nice. and walking bomb is just lol if u can pull it off.

Warriors on the other hand are really strong, aveline is almost invincible even on nightmare, vs most bosses, u only have to heal her now and then AND she can dish out mass dmg with disperse.
And 2H warriors seem to dish out much more dmg than rogues, even though they dont have the survivability of shield warriors.

I think mages and rogues are almost on the same level rogues have higher dps but almost no aoe and no way to even incapacitate any enemies, and both get knocked back until dead...