696 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

I have a strong personal preference for mages. I played DAO with 3 in my party. I played BG with 4 in my party. I played BG2 with 5 mages in my party.

So I'm playing DA2 with three mages, because that's how many mages the game has. It's certainly easier with multiple Warriors than it is with multiple mages.

[Amioran]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I have a strong personal preference for mages. I played DAO with 3 in my party. I played BG with 4 in my party. I played BG2 with 5 mages in my party.

So I'm playing DA2 with three mages, because that's how many mages the game has. It's certainly easier with multiple Warriors than it is with multiple mages.

That's another thing altogheter, however. It is not tied to damage strictly but more on the gameplay mechanics that are much different. One for example is the ability to "stagger" the mages and interrupt them. It is much easier in DA2 than it was in all the games you mentioned.

There are many others, but, again, the majority of them have nothing to do with damage.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Amioran wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I have a strong personal preference for mages. I played DAO with 3 in my party. I played BG with 4 in my party. I played BG2 with 5 mages in my party.

So I'm playing DA2 with three mages, because that's how many mages the game has. It's certainly easier with multiple Warriors than it is with multiple mages.

That's another thing altogheter, however. It is not tied to damage strictly but more on the gameplay mechanics that are much different. One for example is the ability to "stagger" the mages and interrupt them. It is much easier in DA2 than it was in all the games you mentioned.

There are many others, but, again, the majority of them have nothing to do with damage.

In DAO is wasn't too difficult to avoid getting hit at all.  Regardless of what classes I bring in a party-based RPG, I generally want to avoid getting hit under any circumstances.  DAO let you do this because it had better crowd-control.  One Glyph of Repulsion in DAO was hugely valuable if you chose the battlefield intelligently.

But in DA2, you're basically guaranteed to get hit by things (which I don't like), so you're constantly being interrupted.

It's the lack of non-damage and utility spells that has weakened the mages in DA2.  Basically everything they do now is eitehr smaller than what they did in DAO (smaller damage spells, less effective crowd control), and all they've gained is a bunch of support abilities (both the CCC effects and a variety of buffs which only really benefit non-mages - especially since they don't stack).

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 24 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Amioran]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
In DAO is wasn't too difficult to avoid getting hit at all.  Regardless of what classes I bring in a party-based RPG, I generally want to avoid getting hit under any circumstances.  DAO let you do this because it had better crowd-control.  One Glyph of Repulsion in DAO was hugely valuable if you chose the battlefield intelligently.

Glyph of Repulsion doesn't work too well in DA2, yes. I personally changed it almost doubling the "force" and increased the duration to 20s, but the "area" is scripted so I cannot alter it (or I couldn't find how to do it). 6 meters is a too low range for many enemies and they can still reach you. A shame because it was the better tool the mage had in DAO to avoid close contact, and on principle the application should be invaried in DA2.

When I will find a way to increase the area of effect I will post a mod (if it is possible without a toolset).

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It's the lack of non-damage and utility spells that has weakened the mages in DA2.  Basically everything they do now is eitehr smaller than what they did in DAO (smaller damage spells, less effective crowd control), and all they've gained is a bunch of support abilities (both the CCC effects and a variety of buffs which only really benefit non-mages - especially since they don't stack).

I agree on principle with this, however moslty only on nightmare. I believe that mages are more well balanced this time for normal difficulty, when you cannot be staggered nor interrupted etc.

However also this is born from the fact that many complained that mages were too overpowered in DAO, so they tried to bring them more in "line". Problem is that when you try to diminish things then not all things go in place correctly.

Modifié par Amioran, 24 mars 2011 - 07:29 .

[Hawgh]

The controller/artillery/support class is at a disadvantage when alone. This seems to be axiomatic. There is no issue there.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Hawgh wrote...

The controller/artillery/support class is at a disadvantage when alone. This seems to be axiomatic. There is no issue there.

I object strongly to the game's design trying to enforce combat roles by class.  Or at all, frankly.

Amioran wrote...

Glyph of Repulsion doesn't work too well in DA2, yes. I personally changed it almost doubling the "force" and increased the duration to 20s, but the "area" is scripted so I cannot alter it (or I couldn't find how to do it). 6 meters is a too low range for many enemies and they can still reach you. A shame because it was the better tool the mage had in DAO to avoid close contact, and on principle the application should be invaried in DA2.

In DAO you just had to place the Glyph in a doorway.  Its size didn't really matter.  Even 6 metres is big enough to block a good sized hallway.

I agree on principle with this, however moslty only on nightmare. I believe that mages are more well balanced this time for normal difficulty, when you cannot be staggered nor interrupted etc.

You can't be interrupted on Normal?

They need to document these things.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 24 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[Nerivant]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Hawgh wrote..
I agree on principle with this, however moslty only on nightmare. I
believe that mages are more well balanced this time for normal
difficulty, when you cannot be staggered nor interrupted etc.

You can't be interrupted on Normal?

They need to document these things.

What? Yes you can.

Modifié par Nerivant, 24 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[DKJaigen]

The mage needs its AW back. not because of its defense but for its potent (if not best) single target damage.

[godlike13]

Some spells that added to a mages melee aspect would have been nice. They added the ability for mage to melee, but never gave us anything to make it actually useful.

Modifié par godlike13, 24 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[Amioran]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
In DAO you just had to place the Glyph in a doorway.  Its size didn't really matter.  Even 6 metres is big enough to block a good sized hallway.

True, but the Force of vanilla DA2 doesn't knock back the most dangerous folks (that then are the ones that you want to keep away from the mage), for this I increased the force.

Also 6 meters is good for doorways but if you are in the open many times is not enough for many enemies to not reach you at arms lenght. Glyph of Paralysis on DAO had a range of about 10 meters, for a comparison (almost double).

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You can't be interrupted on Normal?

They need to document these things.

Well, in theory you can, it's only that on Normal if you have either more than 20% armor nobody can stagger you (apart some bosses). So, actually just having Rock Armor being nude gives you enough protection to neither being interrupted nor knocked back.

Modifié par Amioran, 24 mars 2011 - 11:43 .

[Amioran]

Nerivant wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Hawgh wrote..
I agree on principle with this, however moslty only on nightmare. I
believe that mages are more well balanced this time for normal
difficulty, when you cannot be staggered nor interrupted etc.

You can't be interrupted on Normal?

They need to document these things.

What? Yes you can.

It happens really only in the beginning (on the prologue and very not far after), because when you get some decent armor you are almost immune to it on Normal.

As I said if you then use Rock Armor you don't either need protection because 25% is more than sufficient to never been knocked back and interrupted, apart bosses. With more than 40% armor in Normal (that you can achieve easily in ACT 1)  it is the same as having Unshakeable in Hard (meaning no way nobody can interrupt you, apart very strong and particular attacks, as the High dragon etc.).

Modifié par Amioran, 24 mars 2011 - 11:47 .

[Talladarr]

All I have to say about this is L-O-L
You're taking an ACT ONE mage and saying that they're gimped because they can't CC on their own? I have played all of the classes, and I see the point that your trying to make, and you're not doing a good job of it. Yes, a Rogue or Warrior is a better CC in ACT ONE, but once you hit act 2/3 (Levels 13-20+) THAT'S when the mage gets all it's CC skills AND can DPS the **** out of eveythign in its path. Here's a combo that's worked wonders, if you wana pull a "solo game" outa your ass. Start with Rock Armor, a necessity on a squishy mage. You let them swarm you, but before than can REALLY beat the **** out of you, yo udo Mind Blast. Then you move out of where you were, then Gravidic(sp?) Ring, And waht do you know =O Suddenly you have 3-14(At max doing this I got 14) all bunched up in one spot =O Whatever are we going to do?! It's very simple. Even unupgraded, Cone of Cold is your friend here, getting about 60% freeze chance, then you hit them with Chain Lightning, and most of them are already dead. What's left hit with Fireball, upgraded preferably, and then Winter's Grasp, which has a small AoE when upgraded. And what do your get? In 3-5 seconds yo ujust won a fight solo, congrats! *More enemies jump off of roof* Weeeeeelll it's not foolproof ^ ^"

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

I think the reason mages have been nerfed is because mages are just so powerful. Sure, (in NWN and NWN2)  rangers, rogues, and clerics could be more powerful, but for that, they needed both a cookie-cutter build AND certain equipment (which you may or may not get), where as mages are powerful no matter what. A poorly designed and played mage is equal to a to the above mentioned cookie cutter ranger And a player who plays a mage, and knows how to BUILD a mage will blast that hapless ranger out of the water before he can say "MAGE. KILL HIM."

Let me put it another way. In every game I play (or atleast any RPG I play), mages are the cornerstone of my group (and warrior and rogues are qq'ing because they just don't compare in damage output to a mage). In BG2, I have 3 mages, 2 warriors, and a Cleric. In NWN, it's a warrior, a rogue, and a mage. In NWN2, it's 2 mages, a rogue, and a warrior. In DA:O, 2 mages, a rogue and a warrior. DA:A is even worse. it's THREE mages and a rogue (the third mage being me, as an Arcane Warrior/Battlemage/Blood Mage, meaning he tanks just as good as a sword and board warrior, and does the damage of a mage- as long as my mana holds). And in all those cases, Mages do about 70% (or more) of the damage. The warrior(s) are there to tank any enemies that survive the mages (which there are few of), meaning they're usually a sword and board user;  the rogue is there for disarming traps and opening locks, i.e. non-combat tasks, no matter how much they excel in combat.

Let me put it to you this way. What's your DA:O group composed of? Mine is me, Allistar, Morrigan and either Wynne (if my Warden is a rogue) or Lelianna (if my warrior is a mage). Never played a warrior. Why bother. Allistar is a wonderful tank, and non-tank warriors don't match either the single target DPS or the AoE of a mage. Outside of the Anvil of the Void, when's the last time you used Oghren? And, outside of the "hold the gates battle in Denerim, when's the last time you used Sten? If you're used to the power of mages, the answer (without diliberately including them just to avoid my point), the answer is never. Sure, I like them, but with 4 party members, something has to go, and it's the (relatively) low DPS 2-handed warriors.

Bioware wanted to "correct" that in DA2.But boosting monster toughness was defeating the point, warriors reached their "realistic" combat effectiveness, so what's left? Return to the 6 man party systems of AD&D? Nice idea, but the critics would blast about "limited character interactions" and limited replays (although given the lack of bug testing, and even leaving an incomplete quest in-the Who Needs Rescueuing quest in Act 3, who'd WANT to replay this until it gets a MAJOR facelift).  I don't buy that arguement of "not enough characters"- PS:T had a whopping EIGHT potential party members, one of which was a "secret" character, and the other gotten VERY late in the game- yet had 6 party members, which you didn't even fill out until you got half way in. So Boiware decided to add the idea of cross-class combos, practically requiring you to use a 2 handed warrior, there by making them useful.

[Talladarr]

My DA:O party consisted of me(Mage), Sten(Give him massive plate armor and he's a better tank than Alistair), Morrigan(unless I planed on rejecting her deal, then I did the circle first and got Wynne) and Lelianna in the beginning of the game, and Zevran later in the game, once I get his stats the way I want. And as a mage I consistantly held  ~70-80% overall party dammage

Modifié par Talladarr, 25 mars 2011 - 04:54 .

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Talladarr wrote...

All I have to say about this is L-O-L
You're taking an ACT ONE mage and saying that they're gimped because they can't CC on their own? I have played all of the classes, and I see the point that your trying to make, and you're not doing a good job of it. Yes, a Rogue or Warrior is a better CC in ACT ONE, but once you hit act 2/3 (Levels 13-20+) THAT'S when the mage gets all it's CC skills AND can DPS the **** out of eveythign in its path. Here's a combo that's worked wonders, if you wana pull a "solo game" outa your ass. Start with Rock Armor, a necessity on a squishy mage. You let them swarm you, but before than can REALLY beat the **** out of you, yo udo Mind Blast. Then you move out of where you were, then Gravidic(sp?) Ring, And waht do you know =O Suddenly you have 3-14(At max doing this I got 14) all bunched up in one spot =O Whatever are we going to do?! It's very simple. Even unupgraded, Cone of Cold is your friend here, getting about 60% freeze chance, then you hit them with Chain Lightning, and most of them are already dead. What's left hit with Fireball, upgraded preferably, and then Winter's Grasp, which has a small AoE when upgraded. And what do your get? In 3-5 seconds yo ujust won a fight solo, congrats! *More enemies jump off of roof* Weeeeeelll it's not foolproof ^ ^"

n Act 3, even on normal, I quit using fireball when I would use it on thing it killed in Acts 1 and 2 because it does such pathetic damage. And even dropping a Firestorm/Tempest on that group does nothing. I finally realized that do actually do damage, my mage would have to stand there, maybe doing some staff action, but no casting until Aveline staggered the enemy, then do a Crushing Prison or a Chain Lightning (Fist of the Maker and Hemmorage never worked, because by the time the animation finished, and the spell went off, the stagger is gone). Mages are NERFED. Go play BG2 or NWN. Hell, even play through DA:O. And use Storm of the Century and Mana Clash (if DA:O) or ISGMs and Staff of the Magi/Sunfire (if BG2). Then come and post your story of how mages aren't gimped in this game. It would help if you keep a straight face, and don't lie through your teeth.

[Talladarr]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

All I have to say about this is L-O-L
You're taking an ACT ONE mage and saying that they're gimped because they can't CC on their own? I have played all of the classes, and I see the point that your trying to make, and you're not doing a good job of it. Yes, a Rogue or Warrior is a better CC in ACT ONE, but once you hit act 2/3 (Levels 13-20+) THAT'S when the mage gets all it's CC skills AND can DPS the **** out of eveythign in its path. Here's a combo that's worked wonders, if you wana pull a "solo game" outa your ass. Start with Rock Armor, a necessity on a squishy mage. You let them swarm you, but before than can REALLY beat the **** out of you, yo udo Mind Blast. Then you move out of where you were, then Gravidic(sp?) Ring, And waht do you know =O Suddenly you have 3-14(At max doing this I got 14) all bunched up in one spot =O Whatever are we going to do?! It's very simple. Even unupgraded, Cone of Cold is your friend here, getting about 60% freeze chance, then you hit them with Chain Lightning, and most of them are already dead. What's left hit with Fireball, upgraded preferably, and then Winter's Grasp, which has a small AoE when upgraded. And what do your get? In 3-5 seconds yo ujust won a fight solo, congrats! *More enemies jump off of roof* Weeeeeelll it's not foolproof ^ ^"

n Act 3, even on normal, I quit using fireball when I would use it on thing it killed in Acts 1 and 2 because it does such pathetic damage. And even dropping a Firestorm/Tempest on that group does nothing. I finally realized that do actually do damage, my mage would have to stand there, maybe doing some staff action, but no casting until Aveline staggered the enemy, then do a Crushing Prison or a Chain Lightning (Fist of the Maker and Hemmorage never worked, because by the time the animation finished, and the spell went off, the stagger is gone). Mages are NERFED. Go play BG2 or NWN. Hell, even play through DA:O. And use Storm of the Century and Mana Clash (if DA:O) or ISGMs and Staff of the Magi/Sunfire (if BG2). Then come and post your story of how mages aren't gimped in this game. It would help if you keep a straight face, and don't lie through your teeth.

Hey, I played DA:O, and that makge makes this one look useless, but he's insinuating that in this game they ARE useless, but that's simply not true

[Graunt]

Hawgh wrote...

The controller/artillery/support class is at a disadvantage when alone. This seems to be axiomatic. There is no issue there.

Not against bosses.  They are actually the class that has the least issues.  This thread is still useless.

Mages
------------
Add extremely good damage buffs to a group
Have extremely good CCC options through stagger
Offer extremely good CCC options through Brittle
Only class that can heal
Only class with any real crowd control or disruption
Do pathetic damage alone, but performance increases greatly with assistance.
Have a moderate to high survivability outside of fights that have 2-3 Templar Hunters out at the same time.

Warriors
--------------
Can tank
Can do relatively good single target damage, but excel at killing trash waves
Offer extremely good CCC options with Stagger
Have high survivability

Rogues
------------
Either focus on single target damage (which they can't be beaten) or:
Add in a few debilitating effects and very limited crowd control options
Assist in threat management
Add in essentially ONE CCC option with Fog
Take advantage of Brittle, but actually seeing one land in a fight reliably is rare
Have low survivability when stealth/back to back is on cooldown

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 05:10 .

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Talladarr wrote...

My DA:O party consisted of me(Mage), Sten(Give him massive plate armor and he's a better tank than Alistair), Morrigan(unless I planed on rejecting her deal, then I did the circle first and got Wynne) and Lelianna in the beginning of the game, and Zevran later in the game, once I get his stats the way I want. And as a mage I consistantly held  ~70-80% overall party dammage

Thank you for proving my point. True, you used Sten (and why bother, Oghren is his superior in every way), but you dropped a warrior for a warrior. I'm talking about dropping a mage for a warrior. When's the last time someone did that?

[Alizamai]

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gravitic says "Hi, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and to stop trying to Winter's Breath and Fireball everything".

HARD CARRY.  If you can hit level 7 and purchase Fist of the Maker, I'll **** your ****.  Do the challenge.  Put up, or shut up.

have you done the challenge yourself? maybe you just cant play mages?

My first run thru with a mage, I had more than double the damage than other companion party memebers,
my second run thru, i took my job as healer seriously, mainly as the ai healers were crappy, and the mobs couldnt hurt me.  I only had my staff as the major weapon as with spirit healing you cannot cast offensive spells.

I was quite happy with this as my party didnt require pots, no one died and they did all the fighting.   win/win i'd say

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Alizamai wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gravitic says "Hi, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and to stop trying to Winter's Breath and Fireball everything".

HARD CARRY.  If you can hit level 7 and purchase Fist of the Maker, I'll **** your ****.  Do the challenge.  Put up, or shut up.

have you done the challenge yourself? maybe you just cant play mages?

My first run thru with a mage, I had more than double the damage than other companion party memebers,
my second run thru, i took my job as healer seriously, mainly as the ai healers were crappy, and the mobs couldnt hurt me.  I only had my staff as the major weapon as with spirit healing you cannot cast offensive spells.

I was quite happy with this as my party didnt require pots, no one died and they did all the fighting.   win/win i'd say

how? with all the heals (all 2 of them) on a 40 second CD (or more), how did you manage that on Nightmare?

[Talladarr]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

My DA:O party consisted of me(Mage), Sten(Give him massive plate armor and he's a better tank than Alistair), Morrigan(unless I planed on rejecting her deal, then I did the circle first and got Wynne) and Lelianna in the beginning of the game, and Zevran later in the game, once I get his stats the way I want. And as a mage I consistantly held  ~70-80% overall party dammage

Thank you for proving my point. True, you used Sten (and why bother, Oghren is his superior in every way), but you dropped a warrior for a warrior. I'm talking about dropping a mage for a warrior. When's the last time someone did that?

Why would ANYONE do that O.o? Loosing a mage only to have it supplimented with a warrior is scichotic. Wit hthe right spells, a mage can do a warrior's job and then some

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Talladarr wrote...

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

My DA:O party consisted of me(Mage), Sten(Give him massive plate armor and he's a better tank than Alistair), Morrigan(unless I planed on rejecting her deal, then I did the circle first and got Wynne) and Lelianna in the beginning of the game, and Zevran later in the game, once I get his stats the way I want. And as a mage I consistantly held  ~70-80% overall party dammage

Thank you for proving my point. True, you used Sten (and why bother, Oghren is his superior in every way), but you dropped a warrior for a warrior. I'm talking about dropping a mage for a warrior. When's the last time someone did that?

Why would ANYONE do that O.o? Loosing a mage only to have it supplimented with a warrior is scichotic. Wit hthe right spells, a mage can do a warrior's job and then some

My point exactly. So to make people play/include 2 handed warriors, they beat mages almost to death with the Nerfbat®, and force them to rely on warriors (almost exclusively, outside of a seldom used rogue tree, and the archery tree's pinning shot).

Which makes the entire Draqgon Age story about mages pathetic. "Mages are the greatest threat to the world." And yet without a warrior to stagger an enemy, they could barely beat a sheep (or whatever passive herbivore passes for a sheep in Thedas).

And it's too bad there's no spellcheck in the standard form, you could certainly use one, Talladarr

Modifié par G_Admiral_Thrawn, 25 mars 2011 - 05:19 .

[Talladarr]

I find freezing works just fine, then another AoE that does extra to frozen enemies and you're golden. It's easier for me at least

[[EDIT]]
Lol, I know, it's killing me. I'm a math person, words and letters only help me when they're variables >.<

Modifié par Talladarr, 25 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[Alizamai]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Alizamai wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gravitic says "Hi, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and to stop trying to Winter's Breath and Fireball everything".

HARD CARRY.  If you can hit level 7 and purchase Fist of the Maker, I'll **** your ****.  Do the challenge.  Put up, or shut up.

have you done the challenge yourself? maybe you just cant play mages?

My first run thru with a mage, I had more than double the damage than other companion party memebers,
my second run thru, i took my job as healer seriously, mainly as the ai healers were crappy, and the mobs couldnt hurt me.  I only had my staff as the major weapon as with spirit healing you cannot cast offensive spells.

I was quite happy with this as my party didnt require pots, no one died and they did all the fighting.   win/win i'd say

how? with all the heals (all 2 of them) on a 40 second CD (or more), how did you manage that on Nightmare?

2nd run thru....Full spirit tree, full creation tree, Arcane tree- arcane shield upgraded, also took elemental weapons.
Both warriors (Fenris and Aveline) I made them take Turn the blade and Elemental Aegis.  We always attacked any mages first, no matter what.  If we couldnt, then we would LOS the battle so mages couldnt attack. Any mages that ventured forth, I would control with paralysis until we could get to them.  If merrill was with us, she would use petrify.  Door ways were especially good. Out in the open was harder, but corners were friends.

We were buffed to the eyeballs, game play was slow and steady.

1st run thru I was a squishy mage, i used cone of cold as soon as it was available, it was my saviour many times. Died lots of times used lots of pots.  Thats why second time around i decided to be healer.  As i said, i had no offensive spells.  Only heals and buffs galour.

[Graunt]

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are "weak". Try playing a Rogue before level 10 on Nightmare and let me know how well that goes for you.  You can only heal from potions, or your Mages can only use the healing spell and no area of effect, haste or crowd control.  Have fun with that.

Both (two-handed) Warriors and Rogues are horrible to play on Nightmare simply because of the insanely awful Anders and Varric AI, no matter how you set them up, they always run directly into melee over and over again, or Varric simply stands still doing nothing at all.  This alone makes replaying the game an actual Nightmare and not fun at all because it becomes a non stop pause fest, unless you want a dead companion every single fight.

Until you get Merril, both of those classes are complete and utter trash to play.  You can talk all you want about how strong Warriors are, but they aren't until the mid levels.  Until then, they rely completely on Mage and Rogue support to do anything at all.  Even after that, you'll never see anyone playing a two-handed Warrior that doesn't have a hastebot -- but of course that "doesn't count" because it's not direct damage with big numbers you can see.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 09:23 .