696 réponses à ce sujet

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are "weak".

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are not weak. Most players who love playing mages in games don't want to be the sidekick character. Playing as the healbot/buffboy isn't fun. "Healbot/buffboy" is the old style DnD cleric that the dungeon master usually had to bribe someone to play.

But how about putting up some videos and showing us that mages can match the killing speed of warriors in Nightmare?

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 25 mars 2011 - 10:12 .

[KodiakAsh]

A lot of the times in my games most of my party ended up dying (due to my laziness of not wanting to managing them or take the time to setup tactics) and I ended up soloing a lot of bosses as a mage. No problems. Ice/Primal/Force/Entropy is your friend. You'd be surprised how often Petrify/Horror works on tougher enemies and how effective the Lightning AOE will CC large groups of enemies with even the small shocking animation.

I still think Warriors and Rogues are better, however, predominately because of cool downs. Early on Mages are rough because they have very limited abilities and very long cool downs, so when enemies keep pouring out of thin air wave after wave they're quickly overwhelmed. After a while this is less of an issue since you'll be high enough to have enough abilities to rotate them around.

[Amioran]

For all those that think that mages are "weak" there's a mod in Nexus that maybe will alleviate some of your problems:
http://www.dragonage...ile.php?id=2423

Give it a try. I did it and in this way mages are much more powerful than vanilla. A word of caution, however: don't use the mod in normal difficulty.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 01:36 .

[Amioran]

Graunt wrote...

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are "weak". Try playing a Rogue before level 10 on Nightmare and let me know how well that goes for you.  You can only heal from potions, or your Mages can only use the healing spell and no area of effect, haste or crowd control.  Have fun with that.

I don't agree that mages are "weak"; in fact I think the contrary. However, and this must be told, some spells are not good for what they are supposed to do, and this in turn make the mages weaker than in principle they should be, for how they are concepted.

An example is Entropic/Death Cloud. It should be, on paper, a strong control/debuffer spell, however in practice, for how it is exectuted, it is just trash and doesn't do anything at all. Another example is Sleep/Coma, that is overshadowed too much by Glyph of Paralysis/Binding, or Glyph of Repulsion that while very good in theory it doesn't work in practice with the majority of enemies because the force is too low (it works only on the first few levels, after almost all enemies have more fortitude by far). These are only some examples, but there are many others, sadly.

Some trees then require too many points of investment for the masteries and/or upgrades (that don't bring much to the table while imposing you to take abilities that are a complete waste for what you want to do, an example is Spirit Mastery or Virulent Walking Bomb).

All of these things make the mage less enjoyable/powerful than it should be. Still it is not a "weak" class, at all, but on principle (and for how they are concepted, in theory) they should be much stronger than they are. The problem is the same in concept as it was with archers in DAO. The difference is that archers in DAO were really "weak" all around, while mages in DA2 are not, thankfully to an handful of very good spells that execute the concept behind them fine.

For this I personally use the above mentioned mod that tries to resolve some of these issues (maybe +50% damage to all spells is a bit too much, I agree, but at last it make you see the potential in theory of a mage when tied to the improved not-so-well-executed-spells).

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 01:38 .

[Amioran]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Graunt wrote...

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are "weak".

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are not weak. Most players who love playing mages in games don't want to be the sidekick character. Playing as the healbot/buffboy isn't fun. "Healbot/buffboy" is the old style DnD cleric that the dungeon master usually had to bribe someone to play.

As always you completely discard all you don't want to see. Where is the crowd control/supporter aspect of the mage that is, in many cases, and for many people (either those that think the contrary when they actually try one), much funnier to play than even a DPS one? Naturally omitted because it's easier to have a point this way, isn't it?

The fact that a DPS mage is less useful in higher difficulties doesn't mean that you have to take the role of "healbot/buffboy" (as you put it) because you have no other options, and the fact that you clearly cannot understand this simple thing make me really wonder how much you really understand about mages' builds and either RPGs in general. This or you want to play smart as always, omitting what is better to omit and don't consider, to have a point.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 02:13 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Amioran wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Graunt wrote...

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are "weak".

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are not weak. Most players who love playing mages in games don't want to be the sidekick character. Playing as the healbot/buffboy isn't fun. "Healbot/buffboy" is the old style DnD cleric that the dungeon master usually had to bribe someone to play.

As always you completely discard all you don't want to see. Where is the crowd control/supporter aspect of the mage that is, in many cases, and for many people (either those that think the contrary when they actually try one), much funnier to play than even a DPS one? Naturally omitted because it's easier to have a point this way, isn't it?

The fact that a DPS mage is less useful in higher difficulties doesn't mean that you have to take the role of "healbot/buffboy" (as you put it) because you have no other options, and the fact that you clearly cannot understand this simple thing make me really wonder how much you really understand about mages' builds and either RPGs in general. This or you want to play smart as always, omitting what is better to omit and don't consider, to have a point.

It is sad that you seem be incapable of  having a rational discussion and must stoop to personal insults instead. You have obviously seen that the mage is indeed weak since you are using a mod that increases damage by 50% and lowers cooldowns and makes other changes.

[Gloxgasm]

Enemies are resistant to certain elemental damage and weak to others. A spirit based mage can roll through the deep roads doing massive damage for example. If you are either too lazy to use proper elemental damage, that is your fault. Especially on nightmare.

That said, the entropy tree needs a rework because it is, in my opinion completely useless.

[keginkc]

I'm playing a dps mage on Nightmare. Anders is my healer. No mods at all. No problems at all. If anything I still feel overpowered. My staff attacks are ridiculous. The Cross-class skills are crazy. Chain Lightning on staggered targets is ridiculous. Although thankfully they aren't as crazily overpowered as they were in DAO with Storm of the Century and Mana Clash and Entropic Death.

I haven't played other classes, so if mage seems weak compared to them, then the problem is that the other classes are way powerful, not that mage is too weak. Mage is right where it should be, in my opinion. On nightmare at least.

[keginkc]

Gloxgasm wrote...

That said, the entropy tree needs a rework because it is, in my opinion completely useless.

I kind of like Death Hex and Shackling Hex.  Despair has some use, although the duration is negligible on Nightmare.  I've never really been a Sleep or Entropic Cloud kind of guy, in any game.

Will say thought that mostly my routine is stagger followed by chain lightning...

Unless I'm unfortunate enough to be facing Qun.

[nicodeemus327]

I partially agree about the entropy tree. Horror and Hex of Torment + Death Hex are pretty awesome. Sleep seems kinda lame with only a 50% chance. It just doesn't have the reliability for crowd control. Entropic Cloud needs a bit more bite.

[nicodeemus327]

m14567 wrote...

What's your build? I'm interested in the first 12 spells you take.  Using a staff vs enemies elemental weakness is certainly good but it requires a little too much OCD for me.

That's cool and all but don't complain that mage dps is underpowered when you don't use them to their full extent. I see too many people doing that.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Mages can't match the killing speed of the other classes. So far no one saying that mages are not weak has posted any videos showing how they are competitive with the other classes in power.

[Tripedius]

Still, even if mages are gimped (and I disagree), it's a hell of a lot better than the OP mages from DA:O that roflpwn everything. And why would people want to solo in the first place? It's a party based action adventure.

Modifié par Tripedius, 25 mars 2011 - 04:05 .

[nicodeemus327]

m14567 wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

What's your build? I'm interested in the first 12 spells you take.  Using a staff vs enemies elemental weakness is certainly good but it requires a little too much OCD for me.

That's cool and all but don't complain that mage dps is underpowered when you don't use them to their full extent. I see too many people doing that.

Fair enough but to me ensuring dps for mages revolves around staff gymnastics is not compeling. No other class is as significantly affected by immunities or weaknesses, why were mages given this aspect?

Because they are the only ones who can cast spells dur.

[Amioran]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
It is sad that you seem be incapable of  having a rational discussion and must stoop to personal insults instead. You have obviously seen that the mage is indeed weak since you are using a mod that increases damage by 50% and lowers cooldowns and makes other changes.

I never insulted you personally, first of all, I only replied to your arguments and what you write, making you notice that you just avoid, voluntarily or not, to see or to understand, some things.

As for the mod I'm using (and I'm using it now that I have already done 3 runs with 3 different mages' builds) I stated that some spells are not well done. This has nothing to do with mages being "weak" on a whole, but more on execution on certain abilities. As I said mages are, in theory, much stronger than it shows now, but this is not a problem of the mage, but of the exectution of concept of certain spells. Does however this make the mage "weak" as you state? No, because they have also many abilities that works perfectly and are very powerful, and that are, on a whole, much more useful than many things warriors or rogues have. The upgrade in damage on the mod is used primarily to not be so reliant on CCCs, not for the "weakness".

Are mages a little restricted in choices given the above if you want to have a powerful build? Yes, a bit. Are they "weaker" in practice when you consider the theory? Yes, surely. Are however they "weak" all around? No, because they have many powerful abilities and choices. Are they forced to play as "healbot" to be effective? Not at all.

Still, you just want to see what you want to see and insist on remarking the same two things without considering the rest. This way it is easy: take a sentence out of its context and you can turn the same to whatever you want. This applies to everything.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[Ahglock]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

What's your build? I'm interested in the first 12 spells you take.  Using a staff vs enemies elemental weakness is certainly good but it requires a little too much OCD for me.

That's cool and all but don't complain that mage dps is underpowered when you don't use them to their full extent. I see too many people doing that.

That would be a valid point if every class required that level of micromanagement.  When some classes require less effort on the planning side of things that does show a imbalance in power.  It may not be a big deal because mages can still ahdle things well, but it is there.  And if you are like me, it is a positive thing because it gives different play styles for each class.  But if absolute balance is the goal that makes games good, yeah it is a failure. Me I hate the balance mantra.  Sure some things need to be abalnced in a single player game, but that is the ectremes like broken combos that destropy all.  But if one class is a bit weaker because it requires a bit more work to get the same bang, I think that is a good thing.  But hey I'd rather play Basic-2e D&D than 3-4E D&D any day. I prefered the "balance" where each class had different power levels at different parts of the game. 

[Ahglock]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

What's your build? I'm interested in the first 12 spells you take.  Using a staff vs enemies elemental weakness is certainly good but it requires a little too much OCD for me.

That's cool and all but don't complain that mage dps is underpowered when you don't use them to their full extent. I see too many people doing that.

Fair enough but to me ensuring dps for mages revolves around staff gymnastics is not compeling. No other class is as significantly affected by immunities or weaknesses, why were mages given this aspect?

Because they are the only ones who can cast spells dur.

I think the issue is resistances effect mages more than armor effects warriors.  Probably because there are too many immune level of resistances in the game. 

[Legbiter]

T3hAnubis wrote...

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

This.

Well, that's settled then.

[Alizamai]

Ok I did the challenge. Casual lvl 1st Act
The DPS mage couldnt match the non DPS mage.Both mages made it to lvl 5 almost lvl 6.
Quests done were
The way it should be, Birthright, Tranquility and picked up Isabella.
The rogue only just made it a bit further, she made it to the chantry fight for Isabella lvl 5 almost lvl 6
The warrior made it past all these, picked up Fenris, completed his quest was lvl 6 and looked like she could keep going... I gave up at this point because I wanted the companion interactions to score brownie points.

However, I wonder if this would be the same for higher levels, once the others have better skills and talents. I've never played a warrior before, I usually like ranged characters, but the two handed sword warrior seemed solid, in Act 1 anyway.

[nicodeemus327]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Mages can't match the killing speed of the other classes. So far no one saying that mages are not weak has posted any videos showing how they are competitive with the other classes in power.

Why is it someone's job? Do it yourself. It's not hard. Keep around the best staffs for each element. Look up which element mobs are weak to  and switch in that staff. Your damage will go up 50% to 200% depending on the mob. For example, undead get absolutely toasted with electricity. It makes undead fights almost trival.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 25 mars 2011 - 04:20 .

[nicodeemus327]

m14567 wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

m14567 wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

...

That's cool and all but don't complain that mage dps is underpowered when you don't use them to their full extent. I see too many people doing that.

Fair enough but to me ensuring dps for mages revolves around staff gymnastics is not compeling. No other class is as significantly affected by immunities or weaknesses, why were mages given this aspect?

Because they are the only ones who can cast spells dur.

So because mages cast spells, they have to do weapon switching to ensure they can do decent damage?  Colored me unimpressed.

Different classes have different mechanics. Crazy stuff. I'll color you ignorant or maybe just lazy.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 25 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[keginkc]

m14567 wrote...

What's your build? I'm interested in the first 12 spells you take.  Using a staff vs enemies elemental weakness is certainly good but it requires a little too much OCD for me.

I'm approaching level 15 now I think.  Couldn't tell you what I took originally but what I would do now, roughly in order, is:

Mind Blast (no choice until respec in Kirkwall....)
Chain Lightning
Rock Armor
Stone Fist
Tempest
Chain Reaction
(Force Mage) Fist of the Maker
Unshakeable
Strikes Twice
Petrify
Galvanism
Horror
Hex of Torment
Despair
Golem's Fist
Dessicate

On Nightmare, I think both Rock Armor and Unshakeable are musts (I can't overemphasize just how much of a difference Unshakeable makes...).  I upgrade everything in Primal because I think every upgrade is worth it, but initially focus on the lightning attacks because they're my bread-and-butter (although Petrify is really nice once it's upgraded).  I'd probably swap out Mind Blast for Horror as soon as I'm able.

I think the other half of the key is upgrading my companions in a way that's most beneficial to my mage.  Like making sure Aveline can stagger, and giving the rogues Brand.  I'm still learning the other classes' skills at this point, though.

I shuffle my staves around as need be, pay attention to what skills aren't hitting.  Although honestly it's really pretty rare that I have to swap them out.  If Lightning doesn't work, I have Stone Fist as a fallback, as well as upgraded Horror (which I use all the time generally).

The lightning skills, Tempest in particular, I find especially useful because of the elemental affect they have on groups of mobs.  It's pretty disruptive, as is Chain Lightning on the occasions where it doesn't outright kill something.

Anyway, it's ever a work in progress, and I am only about halfway through the game...

Modifié par keginkc, 25 mars 2011 - 04:24 .