696 réponses à ce sujet

[nicodeemus327]

Also note, the majority of mobs types are weak to two different elements. If you have multiple mages you should only need to carry one staff of each element instead of two.

However, despite having multiple weaknesses some mobs are weaker against certain elements than others. Like undead (skeletons, revenants, arcane horrors, and shadow warriors) take a crazy amount of damage from lightning (up to 200% i believe) but don't take as much damage from fire.

[nicodeemus327]

Gloxgasm wrote...

I'm pretty sure each mob has an elemental weakness. ARW is weak to spirit so a spirit build just wrecks him.

I believe the Coterie are the only mod type without an elemental weakness. However, they are super squish to physical damage.

[Joy Divison]

In just about every RPG that I've played, mages have always been able to do everything better than the other support classes (though 3.5 D&D druid might have something to say to that).  I would agree in DA II, their power isn't nearly as ridiculous and obvious. 

But for all the supposeded "gimping," I have found the class I always doubled up on my playthroughs are mages.  Even a non-microed Merrill w/ 30+ con with a decent customized tactics will easily outdamage all the other companions and will survive rogue assassinations because of her high health and her aura.  I really dislike Anders, but his creation tree and healing make nightmare Hawke warrior and rogue practically unstoppable so after the Deep Roads he's almost always in my party.

As Hawke mage, I found I wasn't able to single handidly win encounters as I did in Orgins (when my companions mostly got in the way) and I felt I had to kite a little too often for my taste, but Fenris's staggers + chain lightning and blood hemorrhage = win

[Graunt]

keginkc wrote...

I'm playing a dps mage on Nightmare. Anders is my healer. No mods at all. No problems at all. If anything I still feel overpowered. My staff attacks are ridiculous. The Cross-class skills are crazy. Chain Lightning on staggered targets is ridiculous. Although thankfully they aren't as crazily overpowered as they were in DAO with Storm of the Century and Mana Clash and Entropic Death.

I haven't played other classes, so if mage seems weak compared to them, then the problem is that the other classes are way powerful, not that mage is too weak. Mage is right where it should be, in my opinion. On nightmare at least.

Of the three classes I've played on Nightmare, by far the least frustrating (mostly because of the terrible AI) was the Mage.

However, this is entirely because of the idiodic idea to include Warrior Friendly Fire (I don't include Archery, because who uses that? ).  When I played a Warrior on Hard difficulty, the game was so boring that I had to start over.  Not because I didn't like the class, but because it was so damn easy, especially with the DLC items.  Friendly Fire is meant to make the game feel more strategic, and in theory it would.  In practice is make the game no fun for any class other than a Mage entirely because your companions are going out of their way to sabotage the gameplay over and over.

When you have to dump extra skill points into talents that keep your party members alive, just so the Warrior doesn't have to worry about them as much (and probably end up killing them), it's a bad game design.  Party members always want to run into melee, and almost never run out of area of effect spells (hi, Blood Mage whatever it is that looks like a lingering Hemorrhage that will wipe out a group if you don't manually move them all).

I seriously don't see how anyone can claim Mages are not weak. Most players who love playing mages in games don't want to be the sidekick character. Playing as the healbot/buffboy isn't fun. "Healbot/buffboy" is the old style DnD cleric that the dungeon master usually had to bribe
someone to play.

But how about putting up some videos and showing us that mages can match the killing speed of warriors in Nightmare?

If all my Mage was reduced to healing and buffing, I would completely agree with you.  Except he's not.  I've already said more than once how I play, but apparently to you being able to have almost completely control over the field, as well as being able to take advantage of CCC more than any other class doesn't count.  My "sidekick" as it were, is actually Aveline, since SHE is the one buffing for the group and half of the time she's reduced to standing around while Gravitic is out and the rest of the enemies are dying without my group taking any damage at all.  Here's an idea: how about YOU find a video of a Warrior's "killing speed" that doesn't have a Mage behind them and only during Haste segments.  Why do you want to pretend that the hype videos are how the class is 100% of the time?  Do you really think Haste has a 60s uptime with a 60s cooldown?

Also, as strong as they are, most Warriors cannot kill ten ACT 3 templars that have 10k+ health at once without the stars aligning and without being at 10% or less health.

@Amioran: I never pickup any of the Entropy talents beyond the very first Hex.  I've already said how useless the Entropy tree was (not sure about in this thread) on Nightmare outside of Death Hex, but I don't find it worth the points spent to reach it.  I also do not like having to spend double the skill points on the majority of spells to actually unlock them, but all this really does is makes it so I need two Mages to do what one should be able to.  

The only times in the game where I feel "weak" compared to say an auto attacking Archer would be a long drawn out boss fight (I'm not talking about win potential).  Even then it's not "hard", and I think my last Rock Wraith attempt using Aveline was around eight minutes -- which isn't nearly as good as what's been shown with two Mages and a Hawke Warrior, but it's not the 25+ that my first kill took.  I also hate their 3rd or 4th staff attack animation and the fact that they "flourish" when you manually select them to cast on a Stagger half of the time.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[Graunt]

m14567 wrote...
What's your build? I'm interested in the first 12 spells you take.  Using a staff vs enemies elemental weakness is certainly good but it requires a little too much OCD for me.

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but this is what I go with:

biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#miSrPuh1aVP0H1wQc0G


The heal was something I ended up picking up during my second Mage playthrough at like level 19 or so just because I was running out of things to pick up that would not require a very deep investment.  I also ended up accidentally learning how utterly awesome it is combined with Sacrifice as well as just healing myself or as emegency utility.  On my first actual Rock Wraith kill, I ended up having to respec everyone since their "trash killing" builds didn't fair to well, but on my second kill (third and current Mage) I already knew what to do, and I already knew how useful the heal would be later on in the game, so I took it earlier for this fight.  It made the fight much easier than before, where the only other heal used was the 80% from Anders.  I had nothing else to spend my mana on anyway other than Torment every 30s.

For the very beginning segment (if you care) before respecs I just pick up Winter's Blast and Chain Lightning.

This was Anders: biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#1qWStbgdzcEUe

After actually playing it though, I found that the two cold spells really pale in comparison to Chain Reaction overall.  Their only advantage is that it gives you something more against Qunari, Profane and the Rock Wraith, but since Anders doesn't have a very high Magic score to equip staves better than 22 - 25 DPS, he wasn't going to be doing all that much damage with them anyway, and even a gimp Chain Reaction is enough to kill most "normal" ranked enemies on a stagger.  The majority of the "extra" damage against those weak to specific elements comes from Elemental weapons and staves of the counter element anyway, not spells.

Also, Anders has the "potential" to dish out a lot of damage through Vengeance, but it's literally required for Aveline to have the upgraded Bodyguard on him at all times for this to actually be of any use.  Unless you've actually successfully used him without having to babysit him in micromanagement hell, there's no point in talking about it.  I've tried it out and he simply takes way too much damage for it to have been a worthwhile investment.  The most useful thing about it is his ability to chomp health for mana and to reset his spells quickly -- but the situations where you actually *need* that are very rare.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 07:07 .

[Toecheez]

Graunt your link is broken.

[Graunt]

m14567 wrote...
Interesting.  I don't like picking up tempest + strikes twice due to qunari and rock wraith immunities, I prefer to give tempest + strikes twice to a follower instead.

I started pumping +1 str/mag/con for levels to avoid having to pick up rock armor and unshakeable.  I found it worked pretty well. Once I get to 18 str/con I can equip the blood dragon armor with the silverite chain belt. I use my specialization point on spirit healer to pick up the +25 mana, that makes up for the fact that I haven't put points into willpower.  I also have a warrior pick up rally/unite to regen mana.  I found that also worked pretty well.  I finally went into entropy mainly because I find horror and hex of torment useful and already had them, misdirection hex is ok but death hex is good. Sleep+Coma isn't too bad either.

I like winter's grasp and cone of cold because in addition to damage they slow movement and attack speed, I find that works well for setting up walking bombs.

Anyway, cheers for the post.

It's already been discussed in two other threads, but plate is simply not worth it, and strength is a wasted stat when you have Unshakeable.  You're "gaining" mana from Spirit Healer that you didn't have to put into WIL, yet you're only gaining five points worth and on top of that, you're stuck wearing plate that doesn't even offer any elemental bonuses and rarely has mana/stamina.  Most plate has +ATTK and +Physical damage as well as +Health.  Unless you're simply NOT going for Galvanism, there's really nothing better to get than Rock Armor and Tempest.  I already posted the picture earlier in this thread, but my Mage had 78% damage reduction (80% is the cap) in cloth, 377 health and 340ish mana.  Unshakable is a very nice "bonus", but it's not the reason to pick Force over the other two trees.

Rally is decent if you aren't going Blood Mage, but it also then lowers the damage/threat your tank can do simply because it's eating up too much of their own stamina and is also replacing other abilities.  For Walking Bomb, you still want enemies to be clustered up together for it to have been any use, so they need to already be engaged on your tank, or you have to use Gravitic/Pull to keep them from moving and the cold damage for those immune to electricity is also why I picked up two cold spells with Anders, but in practice it just was not worth it.  It wouldn't really have been any different if Hawke had taken them instead either simply because CoC requires more micromanagement than it's worth, and never really even seems to do all that much damage in the first place, even against those "weak" to cold.  At best, you can one-shot a "normal" level enemy, but then you can't do that again for 20s.

Graunt your link is broken.

Not sure why it was doing that, but I added what I already had originally, and it's working.  The page is just loading extremely slow.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[Gloxgasm]

CoC is only useful for trapping a boss in a long attack cast animation allowing you to get 3x more attacks on it before it turns.

[Clonedzero]

i just beat the game for a second time as a mage. on hard.
never once felt gimped.
i was elemental / force mostly.

i easily did the most damage in my party and i geared towards survivability so i was fairly durable as well

maybe its different in nightmare with the friendly fire, since i used alot of AoE stuff, but i dont like nightmare anyways, its more frustrating than fun.

[Gage123]

Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

[Gloxgasm]

Um I can counter that easy.
1 spell
AOE
16,500+ damage


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

What do I win?

[Gage123]

Can you do that every single time with ease? No cooldown? Can you tank everything? Hold aggro? You did ONE action that did ONE 16k damage...the video shows the warrior DESTROYING EVERYTHING while taking everything lol

Seriously Gloxgasm? That's the best you can do?

[Gage123]

And if you want PURE DAMAGE ONLY...have you seen the rogue screenshots of 88k? Oh wait, 16k > 88k right?

[Gloxgasm]

You clearly missed the whole point.

[Gage123]

And you clearly made the point that no mage can counter what that sword and shield warrior can do.

I think it's safe to conclude that mages are gimped. No one has showed any proof otherwise, video or anything of mages clearing a whole area as fast as warriors or killing bosses as fast as rogues.

[Gloxgasm]

Try posting a video without mage abilities being used to increase damage for 20 seconds.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Gage123 wrote...

Can you do that every single time with ease? No cooldown? Can you tank everything? Hold aggro? You did ONE action that did ONE 16k damage...the video shows the warrior DESTROYING EVERYTHING while taking everything lol

Seriously Gloxgasm? That's the best you can do?

Of course he can't otherwise there would be videos of mages rocking NM like warriors do. Walking bomb is a dangerous and tricky spell to use in NM mode.

[Gage123]

Show me a mage doing that much damage that fast, not a singular 16k, but incredible killing speeds and killing groups fast without a warrior providing stagger.

Also, watch the whole video. NOT ALL THE MOBS are affected by 20 sec on increase damage and the warrior STILL clear **** faster than mages.

[Gloxgasm]

I used the Orge pre Dragon in the deeproads to take 1/3 of the dragons health in 1 shot. Nerf Mages! I just don't see the point of showing a warrior using all his cooldowns + mage buffs and then complaining about mages.

[Gloxgasm]

We can standardize this by ARW solo downing times.
Mage 11 min
Rogue 3.5 hours?
Warrior? Don't think I've seen a post about it yet. Anyone else have a time for this?

[pyre]

Gloxgasm wrote...

I'm pretty sure each mob has an elemental weakness. ARW is weak to spirit so a spirit build just wrecks him.

Yes but taking advantage of vulnerabilities isn’t always the most feasible or damage effective.

In most cases, you won’t be set up to maximize your damage with every element that exists.  If you have a Primal Mage with a maxed out primal tree, a staff w/ +electrical damage, and party  members who inflict Stagger for CCC…none of that helps when you run into a fire vulnerable mob and launch your basic Fireball. In many cases you’re better off just using your developed attack regardless of vulnerability.

In some way the elemental vulnerability system is better for melee, because there’s a large variety of elemental weapons, and Warriors/Rogues can layer elemental damage on top of their existing tactics. EG if a Rogue runs into a nature vulnerable mob, he can switch to the nature dagger, his party will Brittle the mob, and the Rogue can Assassinate w/ Nature damage for ridiculous #s. If a Mage runs into a Nature vulnerable mob, his Nature damage staff doesn’t help him at all. Even if a Mage runs into a Fire or Cold vulnerable mob, those spells don’t have any CCC combos and do very little damage.

In some ways the elemental vulnerability system feels less useful for my Mage than my Rogue.

Modifié par pyre, 25 mars 2011 - 07:45 .

[Gage123]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Gage123 wrote...

Can you do that every single time with ease? No cooldown? Can you tank everything? Hold aggro? You did ONE action that did ONE 16k damage...the video shows the warrior DESTROYING EVERYTHING while taking everything lol

Seriously Gloxgasm? That's the best you can do?

Of course he can't otherwise there would be videos of mages rocking NM like warriors do. Walking bomb is a dangerous and tricky spell to use in NM mode.

They can't show any proof cause there are none. The only posts that "prove" they're fine consist of:

- LEARN TO PLAY MAGES ARE FINE THAT IS PROOF ENOUGH
- stagger + chain lightning ho ho ho - do you think that can clear rooms faster than that warrior with a sword and shield PLUS 30 CD on chain lightning is CLEARLY spammable

[Gage123]

pyre wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

I'm pretty sure each mob has an elemental weakness. ARW is weak to spirit so a spirit build just wrecks him.

Yes but taking advantage of vulnerabilities isn’t always the most feasible or damage effective.

In most cases, you won’t be set up to maximize your damage with every element that exists.  If you have a Primal Mage with a maxed out primal tree, a staff w/ +electrical damage, and party  members who inflict Stagger for CCC…none of that helps when you run into a fire vulnerable mob and launch your basic Fireball. In many cases you’re better off just using your developed attack regardless of vulnerability.

In some way the elemental vulnerability system is better for melee, because there’s a large variety of elemental weapons, and Warriors/Rogues can layer elemental damage on top of their existing tactics. EG if a Rogue runs into a nature vulnerable mob, he can switch to the nature dagger, his party will Brittle the mob, and the Rogue can Assassinate w/ Nature damage for ridiculous #s. If a Mage runs into a Nature vulnerable mob, his Nature damage staff doesn’t help him at all. Even if a Mage runs into a Fire or Cold vulnerable mob, those spells don’t have any CCC combos and do very little damage.

In some ways the elemental vulnerability system feels less useful for my Mage than my Rogue.

Shh, stop countering him. He'll post more "learn to play, see this pew pew screenshot" proof