696 réponses à ce sujet

[Gloxgasm]

What part of SnS warrior is using haste + aura do you not understand? Do you want mages to be mages + warriors + rogues? Why bother having 3 classes at all. Infact, I think the mage should have an insta cast aoe that kills everything in a 1 mile radius for 1 mana.

[nicodeemus327]

pyre wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

I'm pretty sure each mob has an elemental weakness. ARW is weak to spirit so a spirit build just wrecks him.

Yes but taking advantage of vulnerabilities isn’t always the most feasible or damage effective.

In most cases, you won’t be set up to maximize your damage with every element that exists.  If you have a Primal Mage with a maxed out primal tree, a staff w/ +electrical damage, and party  members who inflict Stagger for CCC…none of that helps when you run into a fire vulnerable mob and launch your basic Fireball. In many cases you’re better off just using your developed attack regardless of vulnerability.

In some way the elemental vulnerability system is better for melee, because there’s a large variety of elemental weapons, and Warriors/Rogues can layer elemental damage on top of their existing tactics. EG if a Rogue runs into a nature vulnerable mob, he can switch to the nature dagger, his party will Brittle the mob, and the Rogue can Assassinate w/ Nature damage for ridiculous #s. If a Mage runs into a Nature vulnerable mob, his Nature damage staff doesn’t help him at all. Even if a Mage runs into a Fire or Cold vulnerable mob, those spells don’t have any CCC combos and do very little damage.

In some ways the elemental vulnerability system feels less useful for my Mage than my Rogue.

All you need to do is keep around one staff of each element type. You'll get these through crates or drops for free. All you have to do is take 2 seconds to switch the weapons in and out. Do people really not undersand how much damage you get from hitting elemental weaknesses. Its anywhere from 50% to 200% depending on element and mobs. That's like having cleave all the time.

Sadly, people aren't willing to do this and cry gimp.

[Amioran]

Gage123 wrote...

Can you do that every single time with ease? No cooldown? Can you tank everything? Hold aggro? You did ONE action that did ONE 16k damage...the video shows the warrior DESTROYING EVERYTHING while taking everything lol

Seriously Gloxgasm? That's the best you can do?

16k damage on 10 enemies is double 80k damage. A bit of math is not bad sometime, don't you know? I already said that my max damage on Paralyzing Hemorrhage was 33k on 8 enemies. It is, in total, 264k. Good luck on your rogue doing the same... (Naturally this doesn't mean that Hemorrhage does always this damage, as it doesn't mean that rogues do always 88k damage, you know).

Seriously guy, if you want to talk about damage at last know of what you are talking about. It is obvious that a rogue does more damage to A SINGLE opponent, but in AoE they are utterly trash, differently from mages.

As for warrior do you know why you see videos of them destroying everything? A) They have more survivability in general, they are SUPPORTED by two mages all the time (coincidence, isn't it?), C) they are much easier to construct build speaking, D) the videos you see are created appositedly with all circumstances favorable to them and supporting their damage, redone 5-6 times till you find the perfect "run" etc. Doing this with a mage build is much more difficult.

People that don't know of what they are talking about, or that just want to judge things without the proper context, should just shut up. Obviously, and shamefully, it never happens.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 08:08 .

[Gloxgasm]

Clear mismisco that you trolls will jump right on but w.e

Before: 7 dwarves (1 boss)
Cast Chain Lighting x2, Spirit Bolt x2 Walking Bomb X1


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

After:
1 boss. (Should have been hit for 1/3 his hp.)


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Non crit 8k+ aoe against magic resisting mobs.
Throw in a crit and thats over 12k with base cunning.
Throw in spirit vulnarability and thats 24k non crit. All from 5 spell casts.

Have a group? Walking bomb a mob and dump on it with 3 ranged classes or sacrifice a rogue. Instant enemy clear.

Modifié par Gloxgasm, 25 mars 2011 - 08:06 .

[Amioran]

Gage123 wrote...
- LEARN TO PLAY MAGES ARE FINE THAT IS PROOF ENOUGH
- stagger + chain lightning ho ho ho - do you think that can clear rooms faster than that warrior with a sword and shield PLUS 30 CD on chain lightning is CLEARLY spammable

- Would be plausible, in fact. All the builds you mage haters have showed are utter trash. No matter you suffer so much.
- Cooldowns are the same on all classes. You see it worse on mages because they have no auto-attacks enhancing abilities, as rogues or warriors. This, however, doesn't change the fact that if you do a build totally for DPS (that willl suck in nightmare) you could post a video of 10 seconds where damage done by a magein comparision to a warrior to a group brings the warrior damage on shame. Would that makes sense, and more than anything, would that be a proof of anything at all? Not, but naturally it doesn't either make sense quoting videos of dedicated encounters (that many times are redone 5-6 times to obtain the maximum you can have) to show how good damage on rogues and warrior is, as if it was ALWAYS the same, on average, without all the variables used to create those videos.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[Fa1nT]

Go watch some of the berserk reaver videos. They kill both large mobs and bosses faster than mages, and don't even require cross class combos. Just haste and heroic Aura and elemental weapons. (just anders can do all this)

[Amioran]

Fa1nT wrote...

Go watch some of the berserk reaver videos. They kill both large mobs and bosses faster than mages, and don't even require cross class combos. Just haste and heroic Aura and elemental weapons. (just anders can do all this)

OMG.

Try playing ALL the game with a warrior, you will see that those videos are not the average damage you do with a warrior, all the time. The videos you see are done purposedly to show the MAX damage the build can do, in favorable circumstances (meaning that all variables are adjusted for it) and many "runs" till you get perfection.

For a mage this is much more difficult to do for various reasons, that I have already elencated.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 08:14 .

[Gloxgasm]

So they need a 20 second immense speed buff + proper elemental damage + 10% crit + 15%? attack to kill a mob?

And here we have people that can't be bothered to put the proper staff on their mage. You think they can handle all that?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

I'm a mage lover, hence the reason the gimpedness of mages in DA2 makes me sad. Perhaps you were unable to connect my screen name of "Grumpy Old Wizard" with me preferring to play as a mage in games.

Oh, feel free to record and redo battles until you can post a series of them with a mage killing as quickly as warriors. There are lots of warrior videos circulating but no comparable mage videos.

[nicodeemus327]

Fa1nT wrote...

Go watch some of the berserk reaver videos. They kill both large mobs and bosses faster than mages, and don't even require cross class combos. Just haste and heroic Aura and elemental weapons. (just anders can do all this)

The one I watched, Ultimate Vanguard, the majority of the mods are being killed by double chain lightning from both merrill and anders.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Joy Divison wrote...

m14567 wrote...

Fair enough but to me ensuring dps for mages revolves around staff gymnastics is not compeling. No other class is as significantly affected by immunities or weaknesses, why were mages given this aspect?

It's been that way since the beginning.  Your AD&D magic user didn't cast fireball against a red dragon.

The reason mages don't use Fireball is not because Red Dragons are immune to fire, but that Fireball is an AoE effect, and aside from the High Dragon fight in Mine Massacre, true dragons fight alone. A better example would be the use of Flame Arrow, a far more damaging single target fire spell.

And there are enemies that are a headache to deal with. I remember one enemy in NWN2 who had 10 damage resistance against magic, and was immune to fire, nullifing both IGMS and Flame Arrow. I had to resort to Ice Storms and Chain Lightnings (both of them are AoEs) to get rid of a single target.

[ezrafetch]

Gage123 wrote...

Show me a mage doing that much damage that fast, not a singular 16k, but incredible killing speeds and killing groups fast without a warrior providing stagger.

Also, watch the whole video. NOT ALL THE MOBS are affected by 20 sec on increase damage and the warrior STILL clear **** faster than mages.

IF you notice the screencaps, the mage is solo-ing and managing that damage output.  In the video, the Warrior has benefits of Haste, Valiant Aura, and additional DPS from teammates.  That dude would not have been able to pinball around with that sort of efficiency without help from mages to set him up.  Without mage buddies to help, Warrior DPS drops probably by quite a bit more than half (happened to me a lot when Anders randomly gets sniped), which is painful to have to deal with.  Also, Mages have the best AoE capabilities out of any class, so that should be accounted for when you consider anything, which I don't think you even bothered to consider.

[Gloxgasm]

I think 3 mages with Spirit+Haste+Spirit Staff could burn down ARW in under 3 minutes. Going to see if I have a save close enough to try.

[Amioran]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

I'm a mage lover, hence the reason the gimpedness of mages in DA2 makes me sad. Perhaps you were unable to connect my screen name of "Grumpy Old Wizard" with me preferring to play as a mage in games.

Oh, feel free to record and redo battles until you can post a series of them with a mage killing as quickly as warriors. There are lots of warrior videos circulating but no comparable mage videos.

What part of "making it with a mage is more difficult" don't you understand? Either in DAO you have really little videos demonstrating mages power (and they all showed much later, when perfect syncronicities were known), apart Arcane Warriors, and only of little duration (maximum 20 seconds). Still I don't think anybody can argue on the power of a mage in DAO, isn't it?

You have videos when you see SPIKE damage done, but not videos as one you quoted, because given the different variables the thing it's much more difficult to do for mages. Even more on DA2 that has either more variables for mages in respect to DAO.

Do you want me to do a video of 10 second duration with a max Hemorrhage on a group of enemies, utterly destroing them in one hit? Will that appease yourself or prove anything at all? What you say makes no sense, really. Average damage is a thing totally diffferent from max damage in favorable conditions.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 08:22 .

[Gloxgasm]

Hawk: 8 spirit + Haste
Anders: 5 Creation + Rest Spirit
Merril 8 Spirit + Rest Primal

Should be the fastest ARW recorded. Can I cheat and throw in Varric for a CCC?

[Graunt]

Reposting this from another thread...

At 13/20/30/40 Magic the damage for each (upgraded) spell without a staff is:

Chain Lightning - 16/28/44/60
Stone Fist - 30/55/85/115
Tempest - 3/6/9/13
Hemorrhage - 34/61/94/128
Fist of the Maker - 9/16/25/34
Spirit Bolt - 20/36/57/77
Walking Bomb - 13/24/38/51
Dispel - 13/24/38/51
Paralyzing Prison - 72/129/201/273
Winter's Grasp - 22/40/63/85
Cone of Cold - 15/27/43/58
Fireball - 7/12/19/26
Firestorm - 9/16/25/34

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:

Chain Lightning - 179/195
Stone Fist - 345/376
Tempest - 38/42
Hemorrhage - 384/417
Fist of the Maker - 102/111
Spirit Bolt - 230/250
Walking Bomb - 154/167
Dispel - 154/167
Paralyzing Prison - 819/890
Winter's Grasp - 256/278
Cone of Cold - 174/189
Fireball - 77/83
Firestorm - 102/111

Actually, it looks like the increase greatly diminishes with a weapon equipped or after a specific Magic level. The gains are definitely not 20% going from 40 Magic to 50 Magic. Looks more like 9% - 10% or approximately 1% per point. That's entirely excluding end of tree bonuses or bonuses from gear however.

[Graunt]

m14567 wrote...
I found +ATK to be useful on armor because it helped to buff my auto-attacks by minimizing glancing blows and when I'm feeling energetic I switch to a staff that has a dmg multiplier vs an enemy.

This is actually something I've been meaning to get clarification on.  For a while I was under the impression that attack helped with Mage staff attacks, until I came to the obvious realization that unless you're actually using a "physical" staff, or using the melee attacks, you're launching "spells" that shouldn't be missing.  Even at 100% chance to hit I often see the shield with the X through it on multiple enemy types, and just assumed that was the "normal" resistance coming into play here, not you actually glancing on them.  It's not an immunity, because you will clearly see "IMMUNE" in blue over their heads if that were the case.

On Hawke, I'm always keeping his Magic score at the bare minimum for staves and armor, and I'm already getting +15% from the Anders aura.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[nicodeemus327]

Graunt wrote...

Reposting this from another thread...

At 13/20/30/40 Magic the damage for each (upgraded) spell without a staff is:

Chain Lightning - 16/28/44/60
Stone Fist - 30/55/85/115
Tempest - 3/6/9/13
Hemorrhage - 34/61/94/128
Fist of the Maker - 9/16/25/34
Spirit Bolt - 20/36/57/77
Walking Bomb - 13/24/38/51
Dispel - 13/24/38/51
Paralyzing Prison - 72/129/201/273
Winter's Grasp - 22/40/63/85
Cone of Cold - 15/27/43/58
Fireball - 7/12/19/26
Firestorm - 9/16/25/34

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:

Chain Lightning - 179/195
Stone Fist - 345/376
Tempest - 38/42
Hemorrhage - 384/417
Fist of the Maker - 102/111
Spirit Bolt - 230/250
Walking Bomb - 154/167
Dispel - 154/167
Paralyzing Prison - 819/890
Winter's Grasp - 256/278
Cone of Cold - 174/189
Fireball - 77/83
Firestorm - 102/111

Actually, it looks like the increase greatly diminishes with a weapon equipped or after a specific Magic level. The gains are definitely not 20% going from 40 Magic to 50 Magic. Looks more like 9% - 10% or approximately 1% per point. That's entirely excluding end of tree bonuses or bonuses from gear however.

Magic, dexterity and strength have diminishing returns after a certain point. It's 10 + 1.25 * level. For example, at level 10 you'd start seeing diminishing returns for damage and attack at 23 points total in magic.

[Graunt]

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

Magic, dexterity and strength have diminishing returns after a
certain point. It's 10 + 1.25 * level. For example, at level 10 you'd
start seeing diminishing returns for damage and attack at 23 points
total in magic.

Right, I knew that CUN/DEX had it for sure, but I wasn't sure about MAG and if so, if it was the same or not.  So it really does appear that going over 42 MAG (35 + rune) doesn't really net you much at all, and the only reason to go beyond is to use it as your dump stat after you're comfortable enough in health that you'll never ever die and you've already met any WIL requirement for gear.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[nicodeemus327]

Graunt wrote...

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

And yet, chain lightning combos can clear mobs just as fast. Some reason that doesn't count for them.

It's okay for a mage to support a warrior but not the other way around I guess.

[ezrafetch]

Graunt wrote...

m14567 wrote...
I found +ATK to be useful on armor because it helped to buff my auto-attacks by minimizing glancing blows and when I'm feeling energetic I switch to a staff that has a dmg multiplier vs an enemy.

This is actually something I've been meaning to get clarification on.  For a while I was under the impression that attack helped with Mage staff attacks, until I came to the obvious realization that unless you're actually using a "physical" staff, or using the melee attacks, you're launching "spells" that shouldn't be missing.  Even at 100% chance to hit I often see the shield with the X through it on multiple enemy types, and just assumed that was the "normal" resistance coming into play here, not you actually glancing on them.  It's not an immunity, because you will clearly see "IMMUNE" in blue over their heads if that were the case.

On Hawke, I'm always keeping his Magic score at the bare minimum for staves and armor, and I'm already getting +15% from the Anders aura.

I think the principle behind auto-attacking with staves is that it's always considered an attack with all its damage converted into a single type of damage.  It's not a "spell," because I get glancing blows from a staff when auto-attacking with, say, the Staff of Parlathan.  I think what happens after the damage is converted and goes through normal checks for hits vs. glancing blows, then it goes through normal resistance checks, so if an enemy is resistant to cold, you'll get the shield and less damage.

[Graunt]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

And yet, chain lightning combos can clear mobs just as fast. Some reason that doesn't count for them.

It's okay for a mage to support a warrior but not the other way around I guess.

This is what keeps getting repeated ad nauseum.  Apparently it's wrong for a Mage to need staggers (that are sooooo easy to setup), yet it's perfectly fine that a Warrior has to have haste + aura + heals/paralyzing prison/additional CC to do what they do -- because a "Warrior" is really "Warrior + Mage", but a "Mage" is just a "Mage" and gimp.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:
Chain Lightning - 179/195

My mage went all out magic after putting 32 in willpower. He wound up with a chain lightning of damage of 273 and used Final Thought.

So if you recommend stopping at 40 (which nets you 179) my mage does 94 more points of damage on chain lightning than yours. That is a 52.5% increase in damage over yours. Somewhat worth it in my opinion.