696 réponses à ce sujet

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

And yet, chain lightning combos can clear mobs just as fast. Some reason that doesn't count for them.

It's okay for a mage to support a warrior but not the other way around I guess.

I'm reminded of the second battle (I think) in Braveheart where Longshanks ordered his archers to fire on his own men when they were in combat with Wallace's forces (the archers didn't work softening them because the Scots hid under their shields to protect them from the rain of arrows. I use the same logic in these types of games. My warriors hold the enemies in place while I blast everything in the area indiscrimately. It doesn't work in this game because of long CDs and pathetic damage, though. In DA:O a Storm of the Century would clear an entire room in a matter of seconds. Here, you're lucky if a Tempest/Firestorm combo even does damage...

[bradekus]

this argument is ridiculous. mages in this game and in origins is a mainly a support class. the largest role they play are buffs and cross class combos. they do do some great AOE damage but nothing like a warrior with cleave active and whirlwind. I'm on my third play Thru. first played as rogue then warrior, now as a mage. you have to take a step back when playing as a mage and say to your self oh this isn't the usual slash and gash game i have to think about where I'm placing my damage and who I'm targeting. no there not on the same level as rogues or warriors. why cause there not set up for the same role.

[nicodeemus327]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

And yet, chain lightning combos can clear mobs just as fast. Some reason that doesn't count for them.

It's okay for a mage to support a warrior but not the other way around I guess.

I'm reminded of the second battle (I think) in Braveheart where Longshanks ordered his archers to fire on his own men when they were in combat with Wallace's forces (the archers didn't work softening them because the Scots hid under their shields to protect them from the rain of arrows. I use the same logic in these types of games. My warriors hold the enemies in place while I blast everything in the area indiscrimately. It doesn't work in this game because of long CDs and pathetic damage, though. In DA:O a Storm of the Century would clear an entire room in a matter of seconds. Here, you're lucky if a Tempest/Firestorm combo even does damage...

There is no tempest firestorm combo. There's Shield Bash + Chain Lighting which will clear out a wave of mobs in a second.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Graunt wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

And yet, chain lightning combos can clear mobs just as fast. Some reason that doesn't count for them.

It's okay for a mage to support a warrior but not the other way around I guess.

This is what keeps getting repeated ad nauseum.  Apparently it's wrong for a Mage to need staggers (that are sooooo easy to setup), yet it's perfectly fine that a Warrior has to have haste + aura + heals/paralyzing prison/additional CC to do what they do -- because a "Warrior" is really "Warrior + Mage", but a "Mage" is just a "Mage" and gimp.

HOW are staggers easy to setup? My party consisted of Aveline, Merrill, Varric, and myself (mage). And Aveline was ordered (through tactics, so I don't have to micromanage EVERYTHING) to stagger a group of enemies (but rarely did so. And when an enemy WAS staggered, All I had a chance to do was Crushing Prison or Chain Lightning, because by the time the attack animation of FotM or Hemmorage was done, the stagger would be gone. I HATE the Cross class Combo idea. I prefer the self combos of DA:O.

[Graunt]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Graunt wrote...

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:
Chain Lightning - 179/195

My mage went all out magic after putting 32 in willpower. He wound up with a chain lightning of damage of 273 and used Final Thought.

So if you recommend stopping at 40 (which nets you 179) my mage does 94 more points of damage on chain lightning than yours. That is a 52.5% increase in damage over yours. Somewhat worth it in my opinion.

You aren't even listing the actual Magic score you used, and I'm going to call BS on your 273.  I just raised my Magic to 80 using the 42 damage staff and it only does 242. Also the staff you have does 48 damage, not 42, so all you're doing is unwillingly agreeing.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 09:10 .

[Gloxgasm]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Graunt wrote...

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:
Chain Lightning - 179/195

My mage went all out magic after putting 32 in willpower. He wound up with a chain lightning of damage of 273 and used Final Thought.

So if you recommend stopping at 40 (which nets you 179) my mage does 94 more points of damage on chain lightning than yours. That is a 52.5% increase in damage over yours. Somewhat worth it in my opinion.

Doesn't that count +damage% from talents and staff?

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

And yet, chain lightning combos can clear mobs just as fast. Some reason that doesn't count for them.

It's okay for a mage to support a warrior but not the other way around I guess.

I'm reminded of the second battle (I think) in Braveheart where Longshanks ordered his archers to fire on his own men when they were in combat with Wallace's forces (the archers didn't work softening them because the Scots hid under their shields to protect them from the rain of arrows. I use the same logic in these types of games. My warriors hold the enemies in place while I blast everything in the area indiscrimately. It doesn't work in this game because of long CDs and pathetic damage, though. In DA:O a Storm of the Century would clear an entire room in a matter of seconds. Here, you're lucky if a Tempest/Firestorm combo even does damage...

There is no tempest firestorm combo. There's Shield Bash + Chain Lighting which will clear out a wave of mobs in a second.

Assuming shield bash would hit more than one enemy, which I've never experienced., even though Aveline was TOLD to do that if surrounded by enemies.

 And the Firestorm/Tempest combo isn't a "combo", more like 2 AoEs layed down on top of each other. In any other game, that would kill just about anything. In this game, it's lucky to kill an Act 3 critter.

Modifié par G_Admiral_Thrawn, 25 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[nicodeemus327]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Graunt wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Gage123 wrote...



Can mages do that? He does the aggro, the damage, the everything.

Mages? Come on now, let's see your counter

Hey look, yet another video of a Warrior being SUPPORTED BY A MAGE.

And yet, chain lightning combos can clear mobs just as fast. Some reason that doesn't count for them.

It's okay for a mage to support a warrior but not the other way around I guess.

This is what keeps getting repeated ad nauseum.  Apparently it's wrong for a Mage to need staggers (that are sooooo easy to setup), yet it's perfectly fine that a Warrior has to have haste + aura + heals/paralyzing prison/additional CC to do what they do -- because a "Warrior" is really "Warrior + Mage", but a "Mage" is just a "Mage" and gimp.

HOW are staggers easy to setup? My party consisted of Aveline, Merrill, Varric, and myself (mage). And Aveline was ordered (through tactics, so I don't have to micromanage EVERYTHING) to stagger a group of enemies (but rarely did so. And when an enemy WAS staggered, All I had a chance to do was Crushing Prison or Chain Lightning, because by the time the attack animation of FotM or Hemmorage was done, the stagger would be gone. I HATE the Cross class Combo idea. I prefer the self combos of DA:O.

Shield Bash. I have a tactics that cause merrill to automatically cast chain lightning on staggered mobs. It can't get any easier.

[Gloxgasm]

My shield bash hits more then 1 all the time =/ Nerf people that shield bash properly.

[Graunt]

Gloxgasm wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Graunt wrote...

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:
Chain Lightning - 179/195

My mage went all out magic after putting 32 in willpower. He wound up with a chain lightning of damage of 273 and used Final Thought.

So if you recommend stopping at 40 (which nets you 179) my mage does 94 more points of damage on chain lightning than yours. That is a 52.5% increase in damage over yours. Somewhat worth it in my opinion.

Doesn't that count +damage% from talents and staff?

That staff doesn't modify Electrical damage, just Nature and Spirit.  It also adds +4 Magic.  Notice, in the post with the spell numbers I said this was excluding any bonsues from end of tree talents and gear.  Spell points obviously vary depending on other modifiers, but if you're also exclusively focusing on one element, only that element is going to see more of a return while the rest will remain the same.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 09:13 .

[nicodeemus327]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

Assuming shield bash would hit more than one enemy, which I've never
experienced., even though Aveline was TOLD to do that if surrounded by
enemies.

 And the Firestorm/Tempest combo isn't a "combo", more
like 2 AoEs layed down on top of each other. In any other game, that
would kill just about anything. In this game, it's lucky to kill an Act 3
critter.

Shield Bash hits eneimes in about a 90 degree arc in front of you. The tactics you're refering to checks a 360 degree arc around the character. You just have use it when there's mobs in front of you.

/facepalm

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 25 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

well, you two are lucky, because Aveline never shield bashes. For a mage to rely on CCCs to do their damage PROVES they are gimped. Does a rogue rely on brittle? It's nice, true, but with Unforgiving Chain, Mark of Death, Assassinate, Backstab, and Pinpoint Strike, it's not necessary. Do warriors rely on Brittle? Again, it's nice, but with Cleave, Whirlwind, Assail, Might, and Scythe, it's nice but not necessary. Can a mage hit those numbers without staggers?

[nicodeemus327]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

well, you two are lucky, because Aveline never shield bashes. For a mage to rely on CCCs to do their damage PROVES they are gimped. Does a rogue rely on brittle? It's nice, true, but with Unforgiving Chain, Mark of Death, Assassinate, Backstab, and Pinpoint Strike, it's not necessary. Do warriors rely on Brittle? Again, it's nice, but with Cleave, Whirlwind, Assail, Might, and Scythe, it's nice but not necessary. Can a mage hit those numbers without staggers?

No, it just proves you're bad or lazy or ignorant. It's not hard to setup CCC with shield bash and chain lightning at all. It's literaly a click to kill, I Win Button.

And yes, warriors do rely on brittle, heroic aura, and haste. You'll see all of those being used in the warrior videos. They even rely on chain lightning stagger combos.

Too many people watch those video and don't really understand what's going on. They then credit everything to the warrior when it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 25 mars 2011 - 09:19 .

[Amioran]

Graunt wrote...
This is what keeps getting repeated ad nauseum.  Apparently it's wrong for a Mage to need staggers (that are sooooo easy to setup), yet it's perfectly fine that a Warrior has to have haste + aura + heals/paralyzing prison/additional CC to do what they do -- because a "Warrior" is really "Warrior + Mage", but a "Mage" is just a "Mage" and gimp.

I would really like to see a video of a warrior doing the same damage with no mages in the party. All those videos are literally FULL of CC and support (plus the mage always exploiting staggers), helping the warrior damage output immensely. Plus all the party is set to "open fire" on the warrior target at once, again increasing the damage output greatly, a thing much more difficult to do with a mage properly.

Naturally a mage doesn't have the same help from other classes, since, you know, the other classes can do nothing of the sort in the same amount.. This simple evidence is enough to demonstrate how "gimped" mages really are.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 09:24 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Graunt wrote...

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:
Chain Lightning - 179/195

My mage went all out magic after putting 32 in willpower. He wound up with a chain lightning of damage of 273 and used Final Thought.

So if you recommend stopping at 40 (which nets you 179) my mage does 94 more points of damage on chain lightning than yours. That is a 52.5% increase in damage over yours. Somewhat worth it in my opinion.

Doesn't that count +damage% from talents and staff?

That staff doesn't modify Electrical damage, just Nature and Spirit.  It also adds +4 Magic.  Notice, in the post with the spell numbers I said this was excluding any bonsues from end of tree talents and gear.  Spell points obviously vary depending on other modifiers, but if you're also exclusively focusing on one element, only that element is going to see more of a return while the rest will remain the same.

Deny that more Magic helps spell damage all you want. I know better.



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Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 25 mars 2011 - 09:21 .

[Nerivant]

Amioran wrote...
Naturally a mage doesn't have the same help from other classes, since, you know, the other classes can do nothing of the sort in the same amount.. This simple evidence is enough to demonstrate how "gimped" mages really are.

It demonstrates that mages are a great support class, among other things. They're not "gimped," no matter how many times you use that word.

[Graunt]

Claymore + Assault or Scatter is how you get the most staggers at once on normal enemies.  Shield Bash is extra in those situations, but it's also the only ability that can stagger bosses too.

Deny thatmore Magic helps spell damage all you want. I know better.

Equip a 42 damage staff and look again.  Of course you won't do this though because it's "too much work" and it will crush your naive philosophy about dumping points into Magic.  The numbers are already there for you to look at and replicate if you think they are somehow contrived.

You aren't even listing the actual Magic score you used, and I'm going to call BS on your 273.  I just raised my Magic to 80 using the 42 damage staff and it only does 242. Also the staff you have does 48 damage, not 42, so all you're doing is unwillingly agreeing.

Just in case you didn't see it the first time, or need a refresher.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 09:30 .

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

Nerivant wrote...

Amioran wrote...
Naturally a mage doesn't have the same help from other classes, since, you know, the other classes can do nothing of the sort in the same amount.. This simple evidence is enough to demonstrate how "gimped" mages really are.

It demonstrates that mages are a great support class, among other things. They're not "gimped," no matter how many times you use that word.

Thank you for proving they ARE gimped. Mages are a support class. When was the last time that was true for a Bioware game, prior to DA2? In BG2, NWN, NWN2, KOTOR (Consulars were the "mage" class in that game), they were all "primary" classes that could destroy enemies by looking at them funny. Here, they sit back and wand while have Haste and Heroic Aura (which takes like 60% of your mana right there, add in EW and Arcane Barrier, and a AW/BM from DA:A has more mana free to cast spells. I'm surprised a mage has any mana to do damage with chain lightnings and crushing prisons. Mages are the Ultimate support character in DA2, which means they are gimped.

[Amioran]

Nerivant wrote...

Amioran wrote...
Naturally a mage doesn't have the same help from other classes, since, you know, the other classes can do nothing of the sort in the same amount.. This simple evidence is enough to demonstrate how "gimped" mages really are.

It demonstrates that mages are a great support class, among other things. They're not "gimped," no matter how many times you use that word.

What you say can be interpreted in two different ways, so I don't know exactly your meaning and if what you say is referred to me. If you think that I'm saying that mages are "gimped" then obviously you have not read well what I said, because I stated totally the contrary.

If instead the "how many times you use that word" is meant to be general (in the sense of "how many times some people say that") then I agree.

[Amioran]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...
Thank you for proving they ARE gimped. Mages are a support class. When was the last time that was true for a Bioware game, prior to DA2? In BG2, NWN, NWN2, KOTOR (Consulars were the "mage" class in that game), they were all "primary" classes that could destroy enemies by looking at them funny.

Thank you for not knowing anything at all of what make a mage powerful in reality. Mages have always being so powerful just because they can control the battlefield, primarily, NOT for damage. Surely they can also do extreme damage, in spikes, but their PRIMARY aspect, their MOST POWERFUL aspect, and why they are thought so overpowered in DnD etc. is because they can control the field as no other class can do. Damage is a SECONDARY aspect of this, a sort of side-effect. The motive for this is that mage's damage is at spikes, not constant.

The best mages builds have ALWAYS been the CC ones, NOT the damage ones. You should learn a little better of what you are talking about before trying to prove something you clearly don't know.

Really, guy, do you think the most powerful spell of all in DnD, Time Stop, is a DAMAGE spell? Or Wish? Or Imprisonment? I'm without words, seriously.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 09:37 .

[Nerivant]

Amioran wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

Amioran wrote...
Naturally a mage doesn't have the same help from other classes, since, you know, the other classes can do nothing of the sort in the same amount.. This simple evidence is enough to demonstrate how "gimped" mages really are.

It demonstrates that mages are a great support class, among other things. They're not "gimped," no matter how many times you use that word.

What you say can be interpreted in two different ways, so I don't know exactly your meaning and if what you say is referred to me. If you think that I'm saying that mages are "gimped" then obviously you have not read well what I said, because I stated totally the contrary.

If instead the "how many times you use that word" is meant to be general (in the sense of "how many times some people say that") then I agree.

It was meant to be general.

Mages have the best support, great CC, good damage, and in the context of DA2, are a great class.

This entire thread has been a headache for me.

[Nerivant]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...
Here, they sit back and wand while have Haste and Heroic Aura (which takes like 60% of your mana right there, add in EW and Arcane Barrier, and a AW/BM from DA:A has more mana free to cast spells. I'm surprised a mage has any mana to do damage with chain lightnings and crushing prisons.

There are ways around that. Easy ways.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have any idea how to play a mage.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

That staff doesn't modify Electrical damage, just Nature and Spirit.  It also adds +4 Magic.  Notice, in the post with the spell numbers I said this was excluding any bonsues from end of tree talents and gear.  Spell points obviously vary depending on other modifiers, but if you're also exclusively focusing on one element, only that element is going to see more of a return while the rest will remain the same.

Certainly it does not give a special bonus to electricity, but it is the hightest dps staff you can buy (base dps helps determine spell damage) and also boosts magic, which futhur boosts spell damage. I do not value staffs that boost a single element because the spells have such long cooldown that you lose damage if you do focus on a single element.


Oh, my final magic stat with gear was 89, as I posted in the other thread, which you certainly read because you commented on it.

[Graunt]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Certainly it does not give a special bonus to electricity, but it is the hightest dps staff you can buy (base dps helps determine spell damage) and also boosts magic, which futhur boosts spell damage. I do not value staffs that boost a single element because the spells have such long cooldown that you lose damage if you do focus on a single element.


Oh, my final magic stat with gear was 89, as I posted in the other thread, which you certainly read because you commented on it.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/305/index/6652644/18#6769750

Since you seem to keep missing it, or simply avoiding it.  Isn't it ironic that you didn't even take the single strongest area of effect spell for damage (not counting Walking Bomb...which you didn't take either) because you felt the need to up your defenses for survivability issues?  All of those points into Magic, and for what?

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 09:45 .