696 replies to this topic

[Stetzer13]

I agree with szsleepy that mages do feel like they are gimped a little. This is not due to their damage or their survivability. I think their damage and survivability is fine the way it is. The cooldowns on their abilities is not ok especially at lower levels when you have a limited amount of skill points.

Look at rogues for instance. Their cooldowns are pretty low on a lot of their moves, do high damage, and they also do a lot of auto-attack damage. Mages on the other hand seem to have much larger cooldowns (I can understand this for AoE spells, but Winter's grasp or Stonefist?), their damage is comparable or lower to rogues, and their auto-attack is not even close.

Two-handed warriors are actually better at AoE than Mages in this game. They can burst huge groups of enemies down in a second, and they also have high auto-attack (with cleave which is up 80% of the time) which hits multiple enemies. Aura of Pain in reaver tree pulses AoE constantly, and its damage goes up with Cleave and Blood Frenzy. It was doing between 100-200 spirit damage every 4 seconds for me.

The only thing Mages do well over other classes is buff, and CC enemies. Most of the CC doesn't even work on bosses. On my warrior all I ever used Anders for was a healing buffbot. He never casted any offensive spells whatsoever. I just loaded him up with buffs/heals/glyphs. I really feel like it's more beneficial to use only Anders for that reason, and fill the rest of the party with warriors/rogues. They not only do AoE well, but they single target dps very well.

[Basher of Glory]

I really don't understand the point of this topic.

It's like someone purchased a super luxury 10-m-long limo and complains about it's imperfection when he tried to cross the Everglades off road with it.

Edited by Baher of Glory, 19 March 2011 - 04:24 PM.

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...
Also, on a side note, I would argue up and down that the warrior and rogue are far more capable of "setting up the battlespace" with more talents for that purpose than the mage has.  Mage has Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Petrify.  That's IT.

Yep, that's it.  It's not like they have an ability that can slow the movement and attack speed of all enemies in a very large radius that can also completely paralyze bosses for 20 seconds or anything like that.

Most of the CC doesn't even work on bosses.

Gravitic works on practically everything except ACT end bosses.

Edited by Graunt, 19 March 2011 - 04:28 PM.

[Heather Cline]

Your point is you want the mage to be able to solo a game, have the ability to have gobs and gobs of health and gobs and gobs of mana as well as gobs and gobs magic damage. There is no possible way for that to happen. You get a set finite number of points. Rogues put them into cunning and dexterity. Cunning up to 40 because of traps and chests, dexterity after that through the roof so that they can deal damage and avoid being hit.

Warriors put emphasis on Strength and health in equal measures because they are meant to be either the tanks or the damage dealers. Either way they don't focus on cunning, willpower, dexterity, or magic stats.

Mages rely on magic and willpower, the only mage build that ignores willpower is the blood mage build. Mages CAN'T solo unless you build them in a specific way. Sheesh! You're crying over something so stupid. Mages were never meant for solo, that was how they were created. End of story.

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...


See how well you can do Night Lies without a single Mage.

My rogue had no problem with it.  Destroy the main boss as fast as possible, stealth and stay at the top of the stairs.  It takes a while, but it was relatively simple. 

Conversely, my mage never had a chance to because the groups of Guardsman Pretenders in Hightown (Night) were simply overwhelming and too difficult to kill.  Far too many archers for the mage to handle.

[szsleepy]

Heather Cline wrote...

Mages rely on magic and willpower, the only mage build that ignores willpower is the blood mage build. Mages CAN'T solo unless you build them in a specific way. Sheesh! You're crying over something so stupid. Mages were never meant for solo, that was how they were created. End of story.

First, any mage that ignores willpower can't wear armor.

Second, again...  ROGUES AND WARRIORS CAN SOLO THE GAME.  MAGES CANNOT.

Put up, or shut up.  Do the challenge, or STFU.

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...


See how well you can do Night Lies without a single Mage.

My rogue had no problem with it.  Destroy the main boss as fast as possible, stealth and stay at the top of the stairs.  It takes a while, but it was relatively simple. 

Conversely, my mage never had a chance to because the groups of Guardsman Pretenders in Hightown (Night) were simply overwhelming and too difficult to kill.  Far too many archers for the mage to handle.

What are you playing on, Normal difficulty?  This shouldn't even be a discussion for anything below Nightmare.  Rogues win hands down here, but it's not nearly as clearcut for a Warrior, especially on the harder hitting elites.  Like I said, if you want your game to be at a snails pace then sure, kill something, run away and stealth, repeat. That's extremely boring.

Edited by Graunt, 19 March 2011 - 04:33 PM.

[Stetzer13]

Graunt wrote...

szsleepy wrote...
Also, on a side note, I would argue up and down that the warrior and rogue are far more capable of "setting up the battlespace" with more talents for that purpose than the mage has.  Mage has Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Petrify.  That's IT.

Yep, that's it.  It's not like they have an ability that can slow the movement and attack speed of all enemies in a very large radius that can also completely paralyze bosses for 20 seconds or anything like that.

Most of the CC doesn't even work on bosses.

Gravitic works on practically everything except ACT end bosses.

You realize that Rogues have Hail of Arrows which debuffs attack and movement speed of all enemies inside it?  Also, what boss can be paralyzed for 20 seconds?  It sure isn't the Ancient Rock Wraith.  Most of the CC I used on Nightmare/Hard didn't work on the harder enemies.

Edited by Stetzer13, 19 March 2011 - 04:33 PM.

[mosin]

Why would you solo this game?
I can also put out a challenge on nightmare speedruns and show off how fast I can finish off by getting adaquate mage supports. Some classes excel at certain things.

You are right that mages can't hack n slash in this game, but why play this instead of God of War or something if that's what you want?

[Graunt]

Stetzer13 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

szsleepy wrote...
Also, on a side note, I would argue up and down that the warrior and rogue are far more capable of "setting up the battlespace" with more talents for that purpose than the mage has.  Mage has Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Petrify.  That's IT.

Yep, that's it.  It's not like they have an ability that can slow the movement and attack speed of all enemies in a very large radius that can also completely paralyze bosses for 20 seconds or anything like that.

Most of the CC doesn't even work on bosses.

Gravitic works on practically everything except ACT end bosses.

You realize that Rogues have Hail of Arrows which debuffs attack and movement speed of all enemies inside it?  Also, what boss can be paralyzed for 20 seconds?  It sure isn't the Ancient Rock Wraith.  Most of the CC I used on Nightmare/Hard didn't work on the harder enemies.

Hail of Arrows isn't even remotely similar.  Have you even used it?  Also, trying reading before replying.  I said everything but ACT end bosses.  There hasn't been a single elite/super elite that Gravitic has not worked on.

[Heather Cline]

No, plain and simple. Everyone has told you that Mages are not meant for solo. Your point is you want them to when they are not supposed to. Not now, not ever. If you want a game where Mages can solo, go design and build one. Until then you STFU.

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...


Yep, that's it.  It's not like they have an ability that can slow the movement and attack speed of all enemies in a very large radius that can also completely paralyze bosses for 20 seconds or anything like that.

Once again, Graunt...  If you can get to the point where your all-powerful Gravitic Ring can be used EVEN ONCE, I'll **** your **** with a **** eating smile.

Also, bosses are cake.  Kite, quaff a pot, rinse repeat.
It's the waves upon waves upon waves of mobs that Warriors and Rogues can smash through, but Mages cannot.

For the last time, you speak from the perspective of a HARD CARRY mage at level 20 with at least one full school of magic mastered.  The rogue and warrior are NEVER carries.  They're the ones carrying your mage.

I'm whole heartedly convinced that you know NOTHING.  Even if you were able to pull your head out of your *** for long enough to consider taking the time to investigate the issue, I doubt if you would have the wherewithal to actually admit it, since you wouldn't ever be able to stop saying "gravitic, gravitic, gravitic" like some sort of monotone monk in Cyber-Tibet.

[Stetzer13]

mosin wrote...

Why would you solo this game?
I can also put out a challenge on nightmare speedruns and show off how fast I can finish off by getting adaquate mage supports. Some classes excel at certain things.

You are right that mages can't hack n slash in this game, but why play this instead of God of War or something if that's what you want?

The OP is just trying to point out that mages need to be buffed a bit.  I think they would benefit greatly from reducing the cooldowns on their offensive abilities some.  As it stands right now, it is more optimal to only use one mage to buff/heal and the rest be rogues and warriors.

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...

What are you playing on, Normal difficulty?  This shouldn't even be a discussion for anything below Nightmare.  Rogues win hands down here, but it's not nearly as clearcut for a Warrior, especially on the harder hitting elites.  Like I said, if you want your game to be at a snails pace then sure, kill something, run away and stealth, repeat. That's extremely boring.

You won't even get that chance as a mage.  Mages flop like beached fish.  Rogues and warriors don't.

Edited by szsleepy, 19 March 2011 - 04:47 PM.

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...

What are you playing on, Normal difficulty?  This shouldn't even be a discussion for anything below Nightmare.  Rogues win hands down here, but it's not nearly as clearcut for a Warrior, especially on the harder hitting elites.  Like I said, if you want your game to be at a snails pace then sure, kill something, run away and stealth, repeat. That's extremely boring.

You want even get that chance as a mage.  Mages flop like beached fish.  Rogues and warriors don't.

Yes. they flop when you have no idea where you should be putting your skill points and stat points.  My current level 18 has 260 health and "flops" around 1/10th as much as Varric.  I also deal 2600 - 3200 damage to multiple enemies at the same time and can keep anything I want rooted in place.

Edited by Graunt, 19 March 2011 - 04:42 PM.

[szsleepy]

Heather Cline wrote...

No, plain and simple. Everyone has told you that Mages are not meant for solo. Your point is you want them to when they are not supposed to. Not now, not ever. If you want a game where Mages can solo, go design and build one. Until then you STFU.

The point of the challenge is to isolate each of the classes, to show that, although rogues and warriors are relatively self-sufficient, the mage is not, and can never be.

The game makes this irony especially painful with the hard-hitting story about Meredith and her Magephobia.  I mean, come on...  just...  come on.  Mages in this game are pathetically gimped and the game tries to drive home a point about how dangerous they are.  Seriously?  Really?

It's hilarious to me.

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...

Yes. they flop when you have no idea where you should be putting your skill points and stat points.  My current level 18 has 260 health and "flops" around 1/10th as much as Varric.  I also deal 2600 - 3200 damage to multiple enemies at the same time and can keep anything I want rooted in place.

And you got there after being carried for 15 levels by your tank and rogue.  But who carried your tank and rogue?  No one.  They didn't need to be carried because THEY'RE FINE.  Mages are GIMP.  It takes at least 15 levels to be half-way decent.  Rogues are out of the gates at level 4.  Warriors are fine from the word "Go."

[Graunt]

This entire thread has absolutely zero purpose either.  The game isn't a single character game and it doesn't matter if one of the characters have a harder time "soloing" than another when the group is overall weaker without them.  On top of that, it's way easier to setup CCC for a Mage (to instagib most anything) through staggers than it is to use a Mage to CCC for the other classes.

If you want to solo everything, and you want your game to be excruciatingly boring then ok, gee "Mages are weak", but then if you actually care about...you know...a very strong group that can plow pretty much everything, you won't get the same results without at least one Mage -- even if it's just Anders and all he's doing is using the 80% heal and haste.  That would be a dumb way to use him, but he still brings that to the table, which neither of the other classes can replace.

You can argue that all you like but you would be 100% wrong.  To me this thread was created by nothing but a disgruntled former Arcane Warrior.

Edited by Graunt, 19 March 2011 - 04:53 PM.

[Raiil]

Speaking as a fervent mage player, we are a support class- and that's okay. Yeah it can suck to solo, yeah we don't always do the same single target damage, but we have amazing aoe, crowd control, and when paired up properly, we are little magical bundles of destruction.


So yeah, we're glass cannons when it comes to warriors and rogues- but we also make the biggest boom.

[Heather Cline]

Yes biggest boom and loudest noise when it goes off!

[Ace Attorney]

T3hAnubis wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

Yeah, a party RPG where every mage is a HARD CARRY. 

My point is simple.  In BioWare's rush to make the game "visceral" (read: console friendly) they did an absolutely amazing job with the Warrior and Rogue.  The mage was minced. 

On his own, or in a party, Magehawke is gimp.  Do the challenge.  Experience the difference yourself.

The challenge proves donkey ****. Mages are based on parties, a fact. They heal, support, and buff. Denying it makes you ignorant.

:whistle:

[templar706]

Someone cant admit he is wrong...
Its not an opinion, its a fact.

[Graunt]

T3hAnubis wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

This is a party RPG, you simply can't ignore it.
/endtopic

Yeah, a party RPG where every mage is a HARD CARRY. 

My point is simple.  In BioWare's rush to make the game "visceral" (read: console friendly) they did an absolutely amazing job with the Warrior and Rogue.  The mage was minced. 

On his own, or in a party, Magehawke is gimp.  Do the challenge.  Experience the difference yourself.

The challenge proves donkey ****. Mages are based on parties, a fact. They heal, support, and buff. Denying it makes you ignorant.

:whistle:

This is what I keep thinking.  I've played all of the classes to at least ACT 3 so far, and without a doubt the easiest time I've had with any group was when my Hawke was a Mage -- then again, I only play on Nightmare, so YMMV.  Those who haven't used Gravitic, or don't set their tank up with Imp Shield Bash/Claymore have no idea what they are missing.

Edited by Graunt, 19 March 2011 - 04:56 PM.

[GodBID]

Mage talents are a joke at best, How hard would it have been to add say: Battle-Cleric (give the ability to rock out with a shield and wear heavy armor) Battle-Mage (Heavy armor with staff) etc, the talents are poorly designed and rushed, that is shown even stronger as a rogue, all the spec's are based around being a DWRogue, why was there not added say: Hunter or a Ranger tree to the bloody game?