696 réponses à ce sujet

[Talladarr]

I'ma console player, and have no video equipment, I can't take video

[Roxlimn]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

I can't believe this topic is still going. The mage is only gimped if you compare it to extrememly overpowered mages in other games, INCLUDING DA:O, where I pulled 85% damage in one game. Truth is, if you know how t ouse them in this game, they are STILL AMAZING, it just takes a little getting used to, I DON'T understand what you people arfe complaining about!

We are complaing about the mage's distinct lack of killing power compared to the other classes.

You can certainly offer proof by producing videos of Mage Hawke killing as fast as Warrior Hawke. Where's the Beef?

AreleX himself came into this thread to tell you in person that the videos you are referring to are not a show of the power of Warrior Hawke, but a show of the power of teamwork - this includes the two Mages he's using for backup.  With an identical team, only using Hawke as Mage, I can't see how you can't reproduce exactly the same effect.

[Sylriel]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

We are complaing about the mage's distinct lack of killing power compared to the other classes.

You can certainly offer proof by producing videos of Mage Hawke killing as fast as Warrior Hawke. Where's the Beef?

You are whinning about something completely pointless.  I am not inclined to repeat what's been said several times already.

As for your fetishist need for videos, you keep clamoring for one and yet you are not making any offers to provide for making one at your expense.

Did you stop to consider that some people might not have the means to record a video?  Maybe they can't afford?  Maybe they do not care enough to acquire?  Maybe they do not care enough to feel obligated to your fetish for a video to make one?  I don't know.  Just maybe.

[Roxlimn]

I might actually be persuaded to make one, but I play with a lot of pausing by preference. I'm sure that this will be taken against the effort, so I don't bother.

At this point, I think GOW will make any sort of excuse to disregard any video that shows him Mages doing monster damage.

[Talladarr]

I agree. I think at this point he just has a "I cannot be wrong" complex, so he's ignoring all the facts put to him.
A Warrior can't do what it does without mages
Mages can't do waht they do without warriors. It's a fact. Soloing the game requires a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT skill set, no matter your class, MEANTING the game is designed for party play. Can yo ujust get over yourself and accept what RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE?

[Amioran]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Nah, it is quite useful as a personal buff. It sucks as a party buff.

No, it's trash. Defense doesn't add anything to a mage. It is even worser as a personal buff, as you put it. You really have no idea of what you are talking about.

SB was the last spell pilck dude. I did not have infinite picks.

If you had made better choices maybe you would have not wasted a point.

Fist serves its purpose without upgrades. The increased area upgrade actuallly is counter productive on NM.

It is NOT counterproductive if you are a little good at it. Firstly because it doesn't harm yourself, secondly because the area of effect is anyway small enough to not involve party members if you position them correctly.

However you can do also without, but if you speak of DAMAGE, and you don't take nor Walking Bomb, nor Blood Mage then you must rely solely on staggers to do some serious amount. If you don't take the upgrades to Fist then you will have only Chain Lightning, and in little amount Crushing Prison (given the cooldown). Fist with upgrade has a cooldown of only 10s, if you tie it with the 15s cooldown on CL you have a build that could rely on staggers CCC much more, the only option YOU (with your build) would have to do a little of damage.

Dude, your knowledge of the game sucks.

COC is a great spell with Force Mage even without the mastery. Things are frozen solid.

You tell me I know litte of the game and yet you obviously show your incompetence on what the hell you are talking about.

A) CoC "froze" solid only trash enemies on higher levels
You had Mind Blast already for close encounters and escape.
C) If you play your mage correctly CoC is a waste because you have to go on range of enemies to use it, while it is better to stay ranged. On low levels swarming cannot be avoid, but with a good build on high level it is easy to overcome.
D) There are MANY better option, so it's a waste of 2 points (also the upgrade on Winter Blast is, because without the mastery brittle chance is inexistent and the possibility of frozing more than one enemy happens only with a specific build that you don't have).
E) Naturally this all changes is a build is done specifically to work with the brittlle/freeze. An example is Pull of the Abyss + Cone of Cold when the enemies are togheter + Walking Bomb on one of the frozen + attack from range till all the others don't explode. Problem is, again, that your build is not meant to use the froze actively, so they are wasted points.

Really, you don't know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of what you are talking about. I find it natural that you think mages "suck", because you have an abysymal build.

Oh, uh, perhaps you did not notice but you have to take a point in mind blast to take Crushing Prison. Again, your game knowledge is somewhat lacking.

Oh, uh, perhaps you did not notice that I said it expressedly that you wasted a point taking Mind Blast for CP, your comprehension is somewhat lacking.

As for CP, it sucks, again, compared to other most useful alternatives. The damage is only single enemy and not very high, plus the stagger damage is only +200% that changes almost nothing. The paralysis can be handy, but it is not sure.

Dude, I've yet to see any video of anyone consistantly using WB on NM because frankly it sucks because of the difficulty of using it without blowing up your own party. I'd rather have spells I can consistantly use so I always have stuff to cast. ")

But a video of what? There are countless videos of Walking Bomb being used in DAO. It had the same dynamic. If you don't know how to play it's not the fault of anybody else but you.

Do you need me to do a video on how to tie the shoes, just because maybe you cannot?

Horror is a great spell and I could not make room for the Affliction hex.

Horror duration on really meaning enemies on nightmare is too low. Sure, it is handy sometimes but the upgrade is a total waste of a point, MUCH better invested in Affliction.

Nah, it adds more damage. Your knowledge of the game sucks, dude.

Stonefirst is used primarly to knockback, NOT for damage. You don't really know how to play, isn't it?

Again, with all your blabbering and personal attacks you have yet to produce any video of Mage Hawke matching Warrior Hawkes killing speed. Where's the beef, dude?

And you have yet to produce a video of a Warrior Hawke matching the killing speed of those other videos WITHOUT two mages supporting him all the time with CC/Staggers.

Modifié par Amioran, 26 mars 2011 - 08:33 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

And as always the fanbois start the lies about people who want the game to be balanced.

PRODUCE PROOF that mage Hawke can kill as quickly as Warrior Hawke. Oh, and if you are saying I'm the only one who thinks the game is not balanced properly you are obviously have poor reading comprehension skills or you did not bother to actually read this thread and have ignored posts in other threads where people have complained about mages being weak. But go-go fanbois!!! I hope you are getting a check for your efforts.

[Amioran]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

I do have one question. How do you use FotM and Hemmorage against staggered enemies when by the time the casting animation is over, the staggered debuff has been gone of a second or 2?

A) The EFFECT of the spell take place IMMEDIATELY, while the animation runs.
If you don't see the effect taking place immediately is because the animation of the spell BEFORE is not finished yet.
C) So, in turn, learn to time the spells correctly. There's a rythm to learn when playing a mage, that involves learning the animation time of the spells to chain them correctly so there's no wasted time between.
D) The only trouble to this is the wand attack 3/4 animation that cannot be broken and waste a lot of time. That is infuriating, yes.

[Talladarr]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

And as always the fanbois start the lies about people who want the game to be balanced.

PRODUCE PROOF that mage Hawke can kill as quickly as Warrior Hawke. Oh, and if you are saying I'm the only one who thinks the game is not balanced properly you are obviously have poor reading comprehension skills or you did not bother to actually read this thread and have ignored posts in other threads where people have complained about mages being weak. But go-go fanbois!!! I hope you are getting a check for your efforts.

you know, you've yet to provide any proof yourself. How about you stop ****ing at other people and so some work yourself other than spouting facts(which sometimes you're wrong about) and do your own dirtywork for a change? I meen seriously
[[EDIT]]
Amioran, I'm not sayign your wrong, I happen to agree with you, but yo ucould be a little more gentle about it, you're starting to come off as arogant and very.... "I'm-better-than-you"-y. I'm just saying =/

Modifié par Talladarr, 26 mars 2011 - 08:24 .

[Saphiro]

If you think that a mage is inferior to a Warrior/Rogue (that most of the trolls in this thread obviously play), why bother flaming on the forums then? It isn't even the class that you guys like or play.

2/10 Mage QQers actually play a Mage. Maybe even 1/10. So i understand their concern about some "imbalanced mechanics", but i do not if you don't play this class at all.

Mages are squishy, and should not be able to sustain much incomming damage or even tank.
Also, in DA2 it seems that the main reason of the mage existence is supporting (with great buffs and some CC), Healing and moderate damage. You can look at the mage in DA2 as a hybrid-class with utility that every party needs, not as a rampaging dps-truck from hell.

Sorry if you want to solo Nightmare as a Mage and can't perform as good as a Warrior, but don't forget that this isn't balanced around soloing in the 1st place.

Also, Bioware isn't stupid. I doubt that the total domination of the Vanguard/Reaver/Templar or Vanguard/Berserker/Reaver Warriors will last forever. Sooner or later there will be balance-fixes/contentpatches/expansions, and the world will most likely look completly different.

Cheers.

[Amioran]

Talladarr wrote...
Amioran, I'm not sayign your wrong, I happen to agree with you, but yo ucould be a little more gentle about it, you're starting to come off as arogant and very.... "I'm-better-than-you"-y. I'm just saying =/

When someone tell you that you have not "knowldege of what you are saying" when he obviously doesn't know of what he is talking about (mostly) then why I should treat him gently?

I treat people as they treat others/me. If I find a wall I use an hammer.

[Talladarr]

I suppose you have a good point Amioran. It just seems a little... Condescending.
[[EDIT]]
Also, just a side note, but I happen to thing Winter's Grasp and CoC are quite useful. Personal oppinion, and I have no intention of arguing it, but they're not there for their damage(Though sometimes it's useful for that) or it's Freezing effect. It's useful for the slowing of movement and attack speed. They saved my as during the one-on-one duel with the Arishok

Modifié par Talladarr, 26 mars 2011 - 08:35 .

[Roxlimn]

Have to agree that GOW's Wizard build sucks for damage. Main sources of damage:

Chain Lightning
Crushing Prison
Stone Fist

Not fantastic, especially for a level 24 Mage. The main source of damage for ANY class when played above Normal is cross class combos. Anything else just pales in comparison. Stagger is this build's most commonly exploited condition, but it only has two powers that exploit it, and GOW appears not to know how to create situations where you have 4-10 Staggered enemies on the field (or else he wouldn't be making this damage argument).

Therefore, his Chain Lightning is essentially a one-target CCC, as well as his Crushing Prison. Stone Fist is his third CCC, but the only reliable NPC source is Fatiguing Fog, and that's got a long cooldown (and the skill investment kills Varric's or Sebastian's damage trees).

His setups are Winter's Blast and Deep Freeze, but without Elemental Mastery, his proc chance on Normals for Brittle for those are 40% for Winter's Blast and a pathetic 12% per target for Deep Freeze.

You ALWAYS want the Brittle for the damage setup. Mastery increases WB's proc chance by 60%, and DF's chance by 48% per target! And Mastery increases overall cold damage by 25%, of course. Sacrificing this amount of CCC potential for Arcane Shield and Hex of Torment is not optimal for damage.

I'd even sac Horror if necessary, to get Mastery. A Horror'd enemy is a threat delayed, but an enemy Britlle'd and Lanced is dead.

[Amioran]

Talladarr wrote...

I suppose you have a good point Amioran. It just seems a little... Condescending.

Believe me, you have only started with him. After a little you will become "condescending" too with what he wrote. There's no other way to talk to someone that stubbornly refuses to hear just to have a point than to yell.

[Amioran]

Talladarr wrote...
Also, just a side note, but I happen to thing Winter's Grasp and CoC are quite useful. Personal oppinion, and I have no intention of arguing it, but they're not there for their damage(Though sometimes it's useful for that) or it's Freezing effect. It's useful for the slowing of movement and attack speed. They saved my as during the one-on-one duel with the Arishok

Sure, they can be very useful, on certain situations (problem is that these situations mostly don't warrant the points invested in the upgrades if used that way), but they can be absolutely fantastic with a build that uses them actively. I made an example about CoC used in conjunction with Walking Bomb. 

Usually mages builds to be good must have synergy between the skills you take or they will not be good at anything (they could have moments of usefulness but in general they will suck).

The build of Wizard lacks this synergy. He took many skills that doesn't complement each other at all. There's no plan behind the build. 

Modifié par Amioran, 26 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[Roxlimn]

Amioran:

The thing I can't understand is, why doesn't he upgrade his damage powers, when he's so uptight about dealing damage? Maker's Hammer does 900% damage of FotM on Stagger. That's easily well in excess of 1000 damage, compared to his piddly 150 damage or so.

Doesn't he realize that entire chunks of enemy life in AreleX's vids are going to Chain Lightnings off of Staggers?

In fairness, a Warrior build that doesn't have synergy is going to suck, too.  Fill out the Shield Tree, then fill out the THF tree?  You are so going to suck.

GOW's comparing his suboptimal Wizard build to AreleX's optimization of his entire party down to Tactics is just ridiculous.  Their performance is predictably going to be a difference in orders of magnitude.  It's not the Mage class that's sucking here.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 26 mars 2011 - 08:45 .

[Talladarr]

The point he's trying in vain to make is thatmages can't work "solo". Which doesn't matter since it's a PARTY game. There's no real point dto doing it solo

[wowpwnslol]

His main complaint is that mage is reliant on team mates to do damage. Warrior can destroy stuff just fine by himself. Mage needs to take advantage of CCC's to do huge damage. I never felt reliant on team mates playing 2H warrior. With mage it's a necessity.

[Talladarr]

wowpwnslol wrote...

His main complaint is that mage is reliant on team mates to do damage. Warrior can destroy stuff just fine by himself. Mage needs to take advantage of CCC's to do huge damage. I never felt reliant on team mates playing 2H warrior. With mage it's a necessity.

Then you're obviously not using your mages to optimize damage. if you look at the difference comparitively, you'll wonder how yo uever got by without them.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

[quote]Amioran wrote...

[quote]Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Nah, it is quite useful as a personal buff. It sucks as a party buff.[/quote]

No, it's trash. Defense doesn't add anything to a mage. It is even worser as a personal buff, as you put it. You really have no idea of what you are talking about.
[/quote]

What a stupid comment. Defense does help, plus the Elemental Shield upgrad increases your resistance. Errrr....you see to be ignorant of the fact that the party buff only grants 5% rather than 20%.

[quote]
[quote]
SB was the last spell pilck dude. I did not have infinite picks. [/quote]

If you had made better choices maybe you would have not wasted a point.
[/quote]

There are not infinite spell picks dude..


[quote]
Fist serves its purpose without upgrades. The increased area upgrade actuallly is counter productive on NM.[/quote]

It is NOT counterproductive if you are a little good at it. Firstly because it doesn't harm yourself, secondly because the area of effect is anyway small enough to not involve party members if you position them correctly.
[/quote]

Sherlock, bigger area effects are often worse in NM because you can use them less often that smaller area effects due to friendly fire.

[quote]
However you can do also without, but if you speak of DAMAGE, and you don't take nor Walking Bomb, nor Blood Mage then you must rely solely on staggers to do some serious amount. If you don't take the upgrades to Fist then you will have only Chain Lightning, and in little amount Crushing Prison.
[/quote]

Dude, lif you are saying evey build that does not have walking bomb or blood mage sucks you are syhing the game balance sucks. Thanks for agreeing that game balance needs to be addressed.

However, I disagree that Walking Bomb can be used consistantly on NM and you have offered no proof otherwise. In fact, I've read lots of posts of people saying they blew their own party up quite often with it.

Oh, and like I pointed out before, blood mages must sacrifice lots of spell picks, which means I have more spells to cast and thus do more damage becsue I can be casting while the blood mage is staff attacking. And my Magic will be far superior to the Magic attribute of the blood mage.

Blood mage is great for role playing but is not woth it otherwise. Magivach has 529 mana points,  which is essentially an infinite mana supply without the disadvantages of being a blood mage. And 89 Magic which means his magic is far higher than a blood mages so his spells do more damage and he has more magic resistance (82%.)

[quote]
[quote]
Dude, your knowledge of the game sucks.

COC is a great spell with Force Mage even without the mastery. Things are frozen solid. [/quote]

You tell me I know litte of the game and yet you obviously show your incompetence on what the hell you are talking about.

A) CoC "froze" solid only trash enemies on higher levels
You had Mind Blast already for close encounters and escape.
C) If you play your mage correctly CoC is a waste because you have to go on range of enemies to use them, while it is better to stay ranged. On low levels swarming cannot be avoid, but with a good build on high level it is easy to overcome.
D) There are MANY better option, so it's a waste of 2 points (also the upgrade on Winter Blast is, because without the mastery brittle chance is inexistent and the possibility of frozing more than one enemy happens only with a specific build that you don't have).
[/quote]

1) Sorry dude, but Force Mage makes COC free and Winter's grasp freeze without the mastery.
2) Mind blast sucks dude, which is why I did not upgrade it. Plus it is redundant in my build since I have Fist of the Maker to drop on myself and COC.
3) Oh, so I suppose you never start off surrounded by the enemy or have the enemy spawn on top of you? What are you smoking dude? The enemy takes a couple of seconds before they do anything. Plenty of time for a COC and then a withdrawal to a choke point of merely to a point out of the fray while having frozen enemies solid and damaged them. Plus COC is another element to attack with.
4) Wow, dude, you continue to show your ignoranc of the game. WB is a great spell! It has a small area of effect so it can freeze several enemies solid, which it does quite well with Force Mage even without the mastery.


[quote]
As for CP, it sucks, again, compared to other most useful alternatives. The damage is only single enemy and not very high, plus the stagger damage is only +200% that changes almost nothing. The paralysis can be handy, but it is not sure.
[/quote]

Dude, your ignorance of the game is astounding. Parlyzing Prison is a great spell! It is does 1250 damage dude, with my Magic investment.

[quote]
Do you need me to do a video on how to tie the shoes, just because maybe you cannot?
[/quote]

No, dude. i want you to produce video evidence that Mage Hawke can kill as quickly as Warrior Hawke.


[quote]
Horror duration on really meaning enemies on nightmare is too low. Sure, it is handy sometimes but the upgrade is a total waste of a point, MUCH better invested in Affliction.
[/quote]

Dude, Horror is the greatest 1 point wonder in the game. Sure, the upgrade does not add a lot of damage gut every little bit helps and I have lots of spells to cast becasue I did not go the less efficent blood mage route.

Oh, to be able to get to the Affliction upgrade you have to spend lots of points in entropy. Everything is a trade off dude, and I simply could not fit it into my build.


[quote]
Stonefirst is used primarly to knockback, NOT for damage. You don't really know how to play, isn't it?
[/quote]

Dude, upgraded Stonefist  does 527 damage for me. I realize that if you go with stunted Magic for blood mage your damage will be less for all spells though.

I'm not the one complaining about stone fist, dude, you are. Learn to comprehend what you read.

[Amioran]

Roxlimn wrote...

Amioran:

The thing I can't understand is, why doesn't he upgrade his damage powers, when he's so uptight about dealing damage? Maker's Hammer does 900% damage of FotM on Stagger. That's easily well in excess of 1000 damage, compared to his piddly 150 damage or so.

Doesn't he realize that entire chunks of enemy life in AreleX's vids are going to Chain Lightnings off of Staggers?

Because he lacked a plan when creating the build. He just chosed the spells he thought useful reading the descritpion, without caring to create a synergy between the choices he took and the party.

And yes, every build, warrior, rogue etc. will suck if there's not this sinergy, not only mage. However a warrior can work also without and do some damage, mages build are much more tied to this sinergy to work correctly. For this I said that it is much more difficult to create a video as that for a mage.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Amioran wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

I suppose you have a good point Amioran. It just seems a little... Condescending.

Believe me, you have only started with him. After a little you will become "condescending" too with what he wrote. There's no other way to talk to someone that stubbornly refuses to hear just to have a point than to yell.

Dude, I talk to everyone exactly how they; talk to me. I "hold up a mirror." IF you decide you wish to converse in a more civilized manner I will be happy to oblige. IF you want to continue to lie about me and insult me expect don't expect me to be gentle with you. Comprehend?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Talladarr wrote...

The point he's trying in vain to make is thatmages can't work "solo". Which doesn't matter since it's a PARTY game. There's no real point dto doing it solo

Show me once where I talked about mages soloing in the thread. You can't because I DID NOT. Please don't make false statements about my  positions.

[Amioran]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
What a stupid comment. Defense does help, plus the Elemental Shield upgrad increases your resistance. Errrr....you see to be ignorant of the fact that the party buff only grants 5% rather than 20%.

A mage doesn't have defense. What 20% only does? NOTHING. Resistance is handly only on very seldom scenearios. All in all, a total, utter waste of 2 points, especially if you have rock armor (and you did even take galvanism).

As for the party buff I never stated that you should take that.

There are not infinite spell picks dude..

Just for this, dude, your choices must have a plan behind. Elsewhere it just seems you took the spells randomly.

Sherlock, bigger area effects are often worse in NM because you can use them less often that smaller area effects due to friendly fire.

Holmes, really you should learn how to play correctly. What's so difficult in having the tank thake aggro, stagger and you target the AoE OUTSIDE the range of the tank? It has always worked this way.

Dude, lif you are saying evey build that does not have walking bomb or blood mage sucks you are syhing the game balance sucks. Thanks for agreeing that game balance needs to be addressed.

You dont' either know how to read. I'm telling you that since you didn't took that options you should have obviously taken others if what you wanted to do was damage. Really that cannot be infinite possibilities, you know?

If you don't want to get two of the most damaging spells and yet you don't either want to exploit staggers then I'm sorry for you but it's not a fault of the devs if you don't do damage, but of yourself.

However, I disagree that Walking Bomb can be used consistantly on NM and you have offered no proof otherwise. In fact, I've read lots of posts of people saying they blew their own party up quite often with it.

I already told you a way with a specific build using CoC + Pull of the Abyss. Another way is giving Aveling almost spirit immunity via gear. Another is using it in conjunction with Glyph of Paralysis or Repulsion to have them far from the party and blow them away.

Oh, and like I pointed out before, blood mages must sacrifice lots of spell picks, which means I have more spells to cast and thus do more damage becsue I can be casting while the blood mage is staff attacking. And my Magic will be far superior to the Magic attribute of the blood mage.

No, if your build is done correctly, with a plan behind it. You seem to don't get this simple concept, however.

I snipped the rest because I'm bored, really.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Talladarr wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

His main complaint is that mage is reliant on team mates to do damage. Warrior can destroy stuff just fine by himself. Mage needs to take advantage of CCC's to do huge damage. I never felt reliant on team mates playing 2H warrior. With mage it's a necessity.

Then you're obviously not using your mages to optimize damage. if you look at the difference comparitively, you'll wonder how yo uever got by without them.

Videos please. You can't provide them becasue they can't exist. Mages in DA2 are simply not capable of the killing speed of warriors. It would be easy for you to refute me IF you could produce the videos.