696 réponses à ce sujet

[Bhaal]

Roxlimn,

Of course they are no argument here but what i'm trying imply is of all classes mages totaly depends on CCC's. When micromanaging a warrior is mostly about activeting talents etc while for a mage its much more complicated and not more rewarding. Pull of abyss+spirit bomb is great but there is always a change of botch. I can't say the same for a warrior.

Warriors (and arguably rogues) are more effective againts critters then mages and even more so againts elites. A good build can kill them i aggre but simply not nearly as effective as other classes and more importantly its not "fun".

Yes Fenris'll use more abilities (but not more stamina i guess) but deal the same amount of damage "faster" and i was talking about enemies caught by gravity ring. During the act II there is a scene where carta and qunari fights: i cast pull abyss then gr then send Fenris yes he used 3 abilities but in a 4 second or less he crushed them while fire storm toke longer(i tried). Yes a warrior can not do it alone but i'm trying say: best nuke spell that mage has in his arsenal (save spirit bomb of course) even when fully upgraded not powerfull enough. Not that fire storm should be stronger then any CCC but strongest non-CCC AoE.

My argument is: mages depend too much on CCCs, their control abilities are nerfed too much. I do take advantage of CCCs but i hate to do so for every battle.

Modifié par Adakutay, 26 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[Amioran]

Adakutay wrote...
My argument is: mages depend too much on CCCs, their control abilities are nerfed too much. I do take advantage of CCCs but i hate to do so for every battle.

Staggers are very easy to have. Actually it is almost impossible to not have most of a group staggered in late game. So you are not really "relying" on them, since they are everywhere.

And, btw, that encounter you described can be done in a second with a Pull + Bash + Paralyzing Hemorrhage. All gone, in 2 spells and 1 warrior ability (apart the boss, that you kill easy thereafter). There's no way Fenris (or either a warrior Hawke) can do the same in the same amount of time.

It can be done the same with Pull + CoC + Walking Bomb (if you put fatiguing fog you either kill the boss at once), in just a moment.

Modifié par Amioran, 26 mars 2011 - 01:30 .

[Amioran]

Roxlimn wrote...

Amioran:

It is not necessary to personally attack Grumpy Old Wizard, particularly because it makes your case appears weaker, not stronger. If you can provide bare facts, that will be the strongest argument - they stand for themselves. Telling him he doesn't know the game might feel good, but it degrades the power of your argument, because it implies that the put-downs are necessary to make the point, even when they are not.

If you read well he continually say my knowledge is faulted, and I suck at the game and whatever, when actually he doesn't either understand of what he is talking about, and he's being proved wrong time and time again. When cornered he just simply play smart avoiding some parts altogheter or changing completely the meaning of what is being told. After a while it becomes boring and you have to reply at tone. At first I was gentle, but then, after a while, it's impossible to do so.

Facts are fine with people that listen and are either capable of understaning if they are wrong and accept that maybe they are mistaken on something. However they don't serve nothing to people that deny either evidence for the sake of having a point. There are only two possible outcomes to this: A) ignore them, or give them the same treatment. I'm personally becoming bored so in a while I will just do the point A, but till then there's no other way than using B.

Modifié par Amioran, 26 mars 2011 - 01:42 .

[Roxlimn]

Adakutay:

Wait, what? NO!

Warriors and Rogues are NOT superior against Critters! Mages are king of Critter sweeping. This is because of their AoEs and placement effects.

One Fireball, supported by the right items and build, will insta-kill Critters that are not resistant to Fire. Warriors will need to approach to mid-range and then use Scythe, Rogues can auto-attack but it'll take time, or they can use Bursting Arrow for lower damage, or various activated abilities for more stamina.

Yes Fenris'll use more abilities (but not more stamina i guess) but deal the same amount of damage "faster" and i was talking about enemies caught by gravity ring. During the act II there is a scene where carta and qunari fights: i cast pull abyss then gr then send Fenris yes he used 3 abilities but in a 4 second or less he crushed them while fire storm toke longer(i tried). Yes a warrior can not do it alone but i'm trying say: best nuke spell that mage has in his arsenal (save spirit bomb of course) even when fully upgraded not powerfull enough. Not that fire storm should be stronger then any CCC but strongest non-CCC AoE.

You could have crushed them in less time if you Pulled them together, then Chain Lightning, then Fireball. Gravitic is superfluous - you're going to instakill, not control. That'll kill a large Critter group, no problem. I know the fight you're talking about. It feels faster with Fenris because you don't tick off the timer until you're in melee - it's the wrong way to figure time. Start from the encounter start. I can assure you that as Mage Hawke, I'd killed everything before Fenris even got there.

A Mage at distance can Pull immediately, then Gravitic. That ends the encounter right there, since you can essentially just autoattack everything with whatever you have and it'll work. It's probably better to stay at range so you don't get attacked at all.

If you want to end them speedily, Pull + CoC + Scythe. Or Pull + Bash + Hemorrhage.

You can test this on a number of encounter, if you like, but Ser Varnell's is the best since there are LOTS of Critters and they spawn in waves. Spec for area damage and control, and obliterate everything. Fenris doesn't have the power or the stamina to do the same. Warrior Hawke might, but it'll take him longer on account of having to run everywhere he needs to do damage.

In that scenario, I was wiping out the adds so fast I went into non-combat mode before the next adds showed up.

[Bhaal]

Roxlimn, there are always some bastards with fire resistances

Well that test was about showing fire storm as an AoE not very effective. Without a mage Fenris could never create such situation of course (pull of abyss-gravity ring). However Fenris destroys them without any CCC. Cleve+Scythe+Whirlwind(and some substained and passive abilities) and it's uther destruction without any CCC. Yes using CCCs with a mage would be less stressing but my point is a warrior doesn't need CCCs every time and are still fun to play.

Then i loaded the game, used fist, chain lightning then fireball but this idiot casting animation of fire storm tired me and still it was less effective. Then loaded again used CCCs, easy pie, i'm not saying other wise.

Yet your examples are still about CCCs. My problem isn't about CCCs, mages are just as good as any other classes when it comes to CCCs and truth be told they even better. However without them they're way too weak and this ruins the experience.

Modifié par Adakutay, 26 mars 2011 - 02:22 .

[Roxlimn]

Adakutay:

It's probable that the Qunari adds are getting left behind in that scenario because they're resistant to fire, AND because they're not actually Critters - they're Normals. You're obviously not playing on Nightmare because Fenris can attack in the middle of a Gravitic Ring.

On Hard and Normal, Firestorm is a bit of an overkill for Critters, and it takes slightly longer because the damage occurs in area chunks. On Normal, Chain + Fireball SHOULD be killing everything wholesale (including a good chunk of the Qunari Normal HPs). No CCCs should be required.

You have to note that Fenris needs to approach the melee, he needs to use three abilities instead of two, and he can only really do this because of Pull.

You should not need any CCCs to sweep Critters with a Mage, even on Hard. If you're not one-shotting dudes, you're underpowered for damage. Respec.

The fact that a Warrior can exploit an area situation almost as well as a Mage can is a sign of balance.  If you want to wipe dudes at close range, you should be playing a Warrior anyway.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 26 mars 2011 - 02:32 .

[Bhaal]

I tested that fight at hard difficulty (impossible to test in nm) and as far as i remember almost all of'em normals. If i made it like "mages need CCCs to kill even critters!1!!1!!" then excuse me for my clumsy  English. However i think i only told warriors are better againts critters.

I have told twice in last my post: Fenris able do this because of pull, yes but using him instead of a mage with his raw talents is more effective.

You should have to note that a mage in this situation can't do much without any CCC. At hard difficulties mages totaly depend on CCCs. Being able to kill critters without CCCs not much of a talent and even mentioning it makes me little sad: "Mages can kill critters on nightmare without help... well Hooray!"

Modifié par Adakutay, 26 mars 2011 - 04:53 .

[Gloxgasm]

You are using a very bad mage spec if you can't wipe out normal enemies with a mage on Hard.

[Bhaal]

Here it comes again.

Look i'm sure you're so proud you're able to kill normal enemies on hard but that whole "if cant do it you must be suffering some brain damage" attitude is rather sucks alright.

I wrote 3 times: when i use CCCs it's alright but as class; mage just depends too much on CCCs. By the way that 2 ss was yours? A mage kills 6 normal enemies just before the elite kills her? Ha such a proof, great build, you're genius, who would think to use spirit bomb, sacrifice a rogue(!?) that's THE role play, hey now killing 6 normals (barely) something a warrior or a rogue can't do BETTER... Sad really.

Modifié par Adakutay, 26 mars 2011 - 03:42 .

[Roxlimn]

Adakutay wrote...

I tested that fight at hard difficulty (impossible to test in nm) and as far as i remember almost all of'em normals. If i made it like "mages need CCCs to kill even critters!1!!1!!" then excuse me for clumsy my English. However i think i only told warriors are better againts critters.

I have told twice in last my post: Fenris able do this because of pull, yes but using him instead of a mage with his raw talents is more effective.

You should have to note that a mage in this situation can't do much without any CCC. At hard difficulties mages totaly depend on CCCs. Being able to kill critters without CCCs not much of a talent and even mentioning it makes me little sad: "Mages can kill critters on nightmare without help... well Hooray!"

Warriors are NOT better against Critters than Mages.  In fact, Warriors may be the absolute worst at clearing critters.  This is because they actually have to walk to Critters to attack them.  They have their Closing Attack, of course, but that has a limited range, and it tends to only catch one or two Critters at the outset, which is yet another problem with Warriors clearing Critters.

Critters in large numbers (especially Ranged Critters) are actually a fairly decent threat.  You can get plinked to death with an army of Invisible Sister Critters if you don't do anything about it.  Rogues can be better because they have Ranged options (so they don't have to run down every single Critter like Warriors do), but only Mages can sweep them with quickness and efficiency.

A Mage on Hard (and actually even on Nightmare) can use Gravitic to hold enemies, other Force powers to keep them in, and Elemental spells to pelt them down.  As long as they're not resistant to your core element, or if you have alternative options, you should be able to own Normals with no problems.  Fenris cannot do this with just Cleave + Scythe + Whirlwind.  I know because I've played that battle out several times with multiple party comps.  Fenris can't do that.

You're using several abilities that are on passive, as you said.  This uses up stamina, just like an active, and it takes skills points, too.  At the end of this cycle, Fenris will be more or less useless - with maybe enough juice to Killing Blow.  Mage Hawke should have Cone of Cold and Winter's Blast at the ready to deal with the next wave.  This is not a point against Fighters - Fenris just doesn't hold up to Hawke in general.

A Hawke Fighter fares better than a Hawke Mage if you just totally ignore CCCs, but not by that much, and a Hawke Mage is ridiculously more effective if you CCC right.  I mean, what would you want?  A Mage already has Range advantages over a Fighter, and certainly, it's easier to catch dudes in a Firestorm than in a Whirlwind.  You can reap Critters, and own Normals.  Mages just have problems dealing solo damage (but not controlling!) to elites and bosses.

I'm not seeing the problem, honestly.  It's a balanced system.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 26 mars 2011 - 03:49 .

[Gloxgasm]

Adakutay wrote...

Here it comes again.

Look i'm sure you're so proud you're able to kill normal enemies on hard but that whole "if cant do it you must be suffering some brain damage" attitude is rather sucks alright.

I wrote 3 times: when i use CCCs it's alright but as class; mage just depends too much on CCCs. By the way that 2 ss was yours? A mage kills 6 normal enemies just before the elite kills her? Ha such a proof, great build, you're genius, who would think to use spirit bomb, sacrifice a rogue(!?) that's THE role play, hey now killing 6 normals (barely) something a warrior or a rogue can't do BETTER... Sad really.

A quick nightmare solo mage screenshot that I said would get all you whiners complaining that I died.

I am soloing the game as a mage on nightmare. I kill all mobs on nightmare, alone. This isn't boo hoo I can't kill a group of mobs on hard. As I said before, you are doing it wrong.

[Bhaal]

Roxlimn

Warriors are better against Critters than Mages at least in my experience, a reaver-berserker gets too fast after first kill and even at some point he starts killing normals as he kills critters. What you say could be true if walking and "charging" wasn't that quick. I'm almost everywhere with my warrior. Also Ranged Critters are threat againts mostly mages (until act III that is i think). I could care less about them with my Warrior(especialy as a reaver).

Fenris can do that to "enemies are hold by a GR";  Cleave + Scythe + Whirlwind makes a short work of them. Then drink a stamina potion and good as new. And as you agree he's pale in comparision againt a berserker/reaver hawke.

If one ignore CCCs; warrior Hawke 20 times powefull then Mage Hawke and saying otherwise really requires some vids( I'm sorry come up with this kinda lame thing ). Even one doesn't, still warrior Hawke superior.

You may not seeing any problem but this balanced system too much Diablo for a rpg and mages suffers most of it. Respec.


Gloxgasm 

Did you know what i wrote? Because i never told i'm unable to kill normals; i told warriors do that and more, far better than my mage. Soloing as a mage nothing but endless and pointless kitting and it's torture. Diablo 2 has some rewarding while DA2 definetly don't. I fail to see why would anyone solo with a mage. It's like insulting one himself.

Modifié par Adakutay, 26 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[Gloxgasm]

It is easier to solo as a mage then as any other class.

I fail to see how your mage isn't wiping trash mobs out on hard. Hell, you could drop a firestorm on top of your party and it would kill them all. AOE damage is so much greater then anything a single warrior can do.

[Bhaal]

Gloxgasm wrote...

It is easier to solo as a mage then as any other class.

I fail to see how your mage isn't wiping trash mobs out on hard. Hell, you could drop a firestorm on top of your party and it would kill them all. AOE damage is so much greater then anything a single warrior can do.

In that you're totally wrong and you need to watch some vids, "much greater"... oh god are you serious?

Yeah kitting is easy with mage, insulting...

[Gloxgasm]

What part of "the warrior is using MAGE BUFFS" do you not understand? If you want to compare the two, the let the warrior stagger and show a video of the mage chain lightning and hemorage killing everything.

[Roxlimn]

Adakutay:

You, know I have played a Berserker Vanguard. I've even played a Shield and a 2H one. Reload, respec - easy peasy. I know what they can do.

I also know what they can't. You perceive them as killing fast because you're close in, the screen is all action, and you get bloody kills in your face with three Critters as you zoom across the field. It's an adrenaline rush.

But it's slow.

The reason is twofold:

1. Even if you chain-Lunge to reach faraway Critters, you'll still need to walk back to everything else, not to mention the new spawns way over there. This takes time, even when you're on Haste.
2. Scythe and Whirlwind are great, but the area they cover is only about as big as that of a Fire ball, with Scythe being about half as large in general.

There is an easy way to tell how fast you're killing - you should be dropping out of combat after every wave of Critters in a Critter-heavy combat. If you're not, you're not killing things fast enough. A Mage can achieve this easily as long as he's judicious about spell use. A Warrior will have difficulty because of the reasons I mentioned.

In neither case will this even be a survival issue. You have the game beat on both cases, and quite handily. I don't understand what the issue could be. Is it that Warriors are actually worth a damn now?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

24 pages and still no videos of mages killing as fast as warriors.

[nicodeemus327]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

24 pages and still no videos of mages killing as fast as warriors.

So you ignored the solo ARW video? Why doesn't that count? Oh right, it doesn't fit into your preconceptions.

Does someone really have to make a video of a simple shield bash + chain lightning?

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 05:58 .

[Roxlimn]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

24 pages and still no videos of mages killing as fast as warriors.

I think AreleX has some provided on his thread, only it's on Warrior-cam.  This is largely because the Warrior skills aren't really handled well by the Tactics AI, so you're forced to manually operate them for optimum effect.

[Gloxgasm]

Someone please make a shield bash chain lightning video so they shut up. Oh, thats right, a warrior killing quickly with a ton of mage buffs is fine, but a mage killing with 1 stagger is going over the line.

[wowpwnslol]

Gloxgasm wrote...

It is easier to solo as a mage then as any other class.

I fail to see how your mage isn't wiping trash mobs out on hard. Hell, you could drop a firestorm on top of your party and it would kill them all. AOE damage is so much greater then anything a single warrior can do.

Not really. Warrior > Mage for soloing - at least nightmare. I've seen some of the mage videos and quite frankly kiting a group of mobs for 10 minutes is not my idea of effective or impressive. By the end of the game, my warrior could tank multiple elites, wipe out trash mobs in seconds and I pretty much never died.

[nicodeemus327]

Gloxgasm wrote...

Someone please make a shield bash chain lightning video so they shut up. Oh, thats right, a warrior killing quickly with a ton of mage buffs is fine, but a mage killing with 1 stagger is going over the line.

Why should we have to hold his hand on this? I've played a vanguard warrior. It's very dependant  on mages (take a serious look at the Mach5 guide on this forum) and the berserk tree (meaning Fenris will never be as impressive as warrior Hawke).

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 26 mars 2011 - 06:41 .

[Gloxgasm]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

It is easier to solo as a mage then as any other class.

I fail to see how your mage isn't wiping trash mobs out on hard. Hell, you could drop a firestorm on top of your party and it would kill them all. AOE damage is so much greater then anything a single warrior can do.

Not really. Warrior > Mage for soloing - at least nightmare. I've seen some of the mage videos and quite frankly kiting a group of mobs for 10 minutes is not my idea of effective or impressive. By the end of the game, my warrior could tank multiple elites, wipe out trash mobs in seconds and I pretty much never died.

With a walking bomb build, I have to kill 1 enemy in each group before the kaboom. No more kiting involved then getting 6ish shots off.

[Gloxgasm]

Shavon wrote...

CCC, or CROSS class COMBO, implies more than one class. You can't dual class in this game, so what does CCC during solo have anything to do with the OP's point?
This is dumb. Who would solo just for the hell of it? Half of the fun in this game is hearing the hilarious **** that comes out of Isabella's mouth to the other companions anyway.

OPs whole point is that Warriors + Mages do a **** ton of damage whilst a mage alone doesn't. He fails to see that the mages are the large factor in the burst warrior dps. Yet when he looks at mages, he doesn't allow for any other class to help them do damage by the CCC. Thus, a warrior with 2 mages in suppost is a "damage god" but a mage has to do that sort of output solo for it to be "balanced" in OPs mind. OP is an idiot =/