696 réponses à ce sujet

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

AreleX wrote...
Blaaa...blaaa...insult, blaaa, insult, insult, insult, blaaaaa.

No, you are the one doing the insulting, which generally indicates an inferiority complex. I definately don't think I am inferior to anyone or anyone is inferior to me.

To prove that mages can kill as fast as warriors all you have to do is post some videos of Mage Hawke doing so. Please learn how to debate like a mature individual rather than name calling like a pre-schooler.

There are quite a few people who don't like how mages have been gimped. All your insults won't change that fact.

[AreleX]

I didn't even really insult you, but if you want a convenient way to weasel out of addessing points, you've most certainly found it. Calling someone ignorant is not an insult. Do you know the definition of the word?

ig·no·rant adj.1. Lacking education or knowledge.2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.3. Unaware or uninformed.

I provided you your video, and you came up with a weak excuse to ignore it. You don't want help, you don't want to understand, you don't want to improve, you just want to whine incessantly and argue, even when presented with FACTS. I'm just fine with discussing the pros and cons of each side like civil adults, but it's not worth it when the other person turns their nose up at every fact and point presented.

I have PROOF.
You have EVASION and SIDESTEPPING.

This is a waste of time.

And 'Inferiority complex' was in reference to you saying you don't want to have a 'sidekick role', nothing else.

Modifié par AreleX, 27 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[Teknor]

Let's leave the guy to his own misery. He's obviously not here to contribute.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

AreleX wrote...

I didn't even really insult you, but if you want a convenient way to weasel out of addessing points, you've most certainly found it.

This is a waste of time.

And 'Inferiority complex' was in reference to you saying you don't want to have a 'sidekick role', nothing else.

You sir have proven yourself to be a liar.

You stated I have an inferiority complex. That is a lie. And yes, calling someone ignorant is certainly an insult. You called me a mental midget. That is an insult. Another lie.

Sorry, you showed a vidoe of Warrior Hawke. You seem to be rather confused.

Fanbois all follow the same technique. They lie about and insult anyone who says the game is not perfect. Many people (not just me) have complained about the mage being gimped.

Grow up and learn how to have a civilized debate. You will certainly fail your speech class in school if you fly off the handle and start name calling when addressing your opponent in a debate.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 27 mars 2011 - 01:09 .

[AreleX]

And how far will you get in a debate if you don't address the opposing side's points? I called you ignorant because you talk about Warrior as if you know something about it, when, to anyone who has actually PLAYED the class for a bit, what you're saying is nothing but wrong.

I'm almost convinced you're a troll now, because there's no way someone could so continually and consistently ignore what's being presented to them, no matter the manner of presentation (amicable or otherwise). This whole thread has just been one string of comedy to the next, thanks in no small part to your selective reading abilities and lack of critical throught capacity.

Enjoy muddling about in mediocrity and not understanding/having fun with the game, I'm not going to waste any more of my time on you or this thread. Feel free to stay here and troll or sashay around every fact and point that doesn't fit your narrow-minded, incorrect view of the game, or whatever it is you do.

Modifié par AreleX, 27 mars 2011 - 01:34 .

[Nerivant]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

AreleX wrote...

I didn't even really insult you, but if you want a convenient way to weasel out of addessing points, you've most certainly found it.

This is a waste of time.

And 'Inferiority complex' was in reference to you saying you don't want to have a 'sidekick role', nothing else.

You sir have proven yourself to be a liar.

You stated I have an inferiority complex. That is a lie. And yes, calling someone ignorant is certainly an insult. You called me a mental midget. That is an insult. Another lie.

Sorry, you showed a vidoe of Warrior Hawke. You seem to be rather confused.

Fanbois all follow the same technique. They lie about and insult anyone who says the game is not perfect. Many people (not just me) have complained about the mage being gimped.

Grow up and learn how to have a civilized debate. You will certainly fail your speech class in school if you fly off the handle and start name calling when addressing your opponent in a debate.

Judging from this post, though, you may have a superiority complex.

Just saying.

Irony.

[Nukenin]

Well, I doubt your video showed what the ol' wheezer wants to see; namely, mage Hawke walks alone into a bar of hooligans of varying stripe, gives his ol' staff a twirl, and everyone 'splodes. Maybe a straggler or two so the mage Hawke can follow through with a finger of death or three.

He doesn't want to see support or healing because no DM is giving him divine powers as a bribe to do these things.

My current mage does nothing but staff autoattacks, an occasional glyph of paralysis, and constantly complain about being out of mana due to the massive sustainables. I'm fine with it, even if it is the equivalent of standing in a corner facing the walls during some fights.

I'd like to see his (her?) D&D magic-user survive without assistance when the spells run out. A video of course would be preferable.

Modifié par Nukenin, 27 mars 2011 - 01:40 .

[Nerivant]

Nukenin wrote...
My current mage does nothing but staff autoattacks, an occasional glyph of paralysis, and constantly complain about being out of mana due to the massive sustainables. I'm fine with it, even if it is the equivalent of standing in a corner facing the walls during some fights.

Mana starved? Sick of maintaining your sustainables and neglecting your mage's ability to incinerate Darkspawn and smash armored knights into piles of jelly?



Speak to your nearest Pride Demon and become a Blood Mage today!

Modifié par Nerivant, 27 mars 2011 - 01:42 .

[Roxlimn]

Nukenin wrote...

Well, I doubt your video showed what the ol' wheezer wants to see; namely, mage Hawke walks alone into a bar of hooligans of varying stripe, gives his ol' staff a twirl, and everyone 'splodes. Maybe a straggler or two so the mage Hawke can follow through with a finger of death or three.

He doesn't want to see support or healing because no DM is giving him divine powers as a bribe to do these things.

My current mage does nothing but staff autoattacks, an occasional glyph of paralysis, and constantly complain about being out of mana due to the massive sustainables. I'm fine with it, even if it is the equivalent of standing in a corner facing the walls during some fights.

I'd like to see his (her?) D&D magic-user survive without assistance when the spells ran out. A video of course would be preferable.

AreleX's video showed multiple instances of Merrill owning the crap out of the targets he's painted with Stagger - three at a time, once.  Also shows multiple instance of Merrill and Anders locking down enemies Hold Person style (and everyone who's played with that in 3e knows how OP it was).

That's not support, and it's not healing.  It's pure nuking ownage, right onscreen, and even with helpful arrows and labels; because he apparently can't see where the damage is coming from when it's not pointed out.  I said it once before, but it's self-evident that the video he wants showing Mages killing stuff quickly, is right in AreleX's threads.  He just doesn't want to see.

[Roxlimn]

We must be playing a different game, seriously. Enemies run out of Tempest constantly if they aren't already engaged with someone, and the stun does not keep them inside of it on Nightmare more than a few seconds. You're greatly exaggerating it's stun effect. It doesn't lock enemies down, all it does is periodically interrupt them and they are never just sitting inside for the entire duration...ever.

You're right, we must be playing different codes.

Again, another exaggeration. It doesn't matter if you have the center in between the mass of enemies you want to grab, or if you simply have it behind them, the effect is completely and utterly random. Sometimes they clump up, but more often than not half of them clump and the other half go flying even if they weren't anywhere near the center when you cast it.

Again, we may be playing different codes. For some reason, every time I use Pull, enemies come closer together. I don't know what's happening in your games, to be honest, for the effect to be as random as you say it is. It works fine on my machine.

That's a lot of running then, and rather pointless other than running for line of sight clumping.

Hawke's CCC spells are these:

Winter's Blast
Deep Freeze
Chain Lightning
Fist of the Maker

Telekinetic Blast and Pull are used to position enemies favorably in between. Firestorm and Fireball are used to kill ranged Critter spawns.

Let's assume that all the spells are on 20 s cooldown. They aren't but Firestorm is more than offset by Fist of the Maker, just about. With 8 spells every 20 seconds, I'm casting a spell once every two and a half seconds, essentially forever. That doesn't leave a lot of time for running, or autoattacking. I use what time I have to run for position - an extra target caught in a CoC is money once Fenris hits it. Also, running to good positions is occasionally key in not getting caught in your own Firestorm.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 27 mars 2011 - 01:55 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

AreleX's video showed multiple instances of Merrill owning the crap out of the targets he's painted with Stagger - three at a time, once.  Also shows multiple instance of Merrill and Anders locking down enemies Hold Person style (and everyone who's played with that in 3e knows how OP it was).

That's not support, and it's not healing.  It's pure nuking ownage, right onscreen, and even with helpful arrows and labels; because he apparently can't see where the damage is coming from when it's not pointed out.  I said it once before, but it's self-evident that the video he wants showing Mages killing stuff quickly, is right in AreleX's threads.  He just doesn't want to see.

Sir, you can't possibly know what I want to see and don't want to see. Your statement is a lie. The fanbois continue their crusade of lies and insults.

Showing an NPC mage killing three things when staggered is not the same thing as showing Mage Hawke killing at the same speed as Warrior Hawke. Warrior Hawke kills things at a far faster rate than three things every 20+ seconds.

Again, show me mage Hawke matching the killing speed of Warrior Hawke. Then post your videos in a thread titled something like "The Ultimate Force Mage: Nightmare Mage Domination."

[Nerivant]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Again, show me mage Hawke matching the killing speed of Warrior Hawke. Then post your videos in a thread titled something like "The Ultimate Force Mage: Nightmare Mage Domination."

I'm quite partial to "Mage Haters Proved Wrong: Carnage Inside," myself, but I fail to see what the title of the thread the video is posted under matters, when compared to the video itself.

[Roxlimn]

LOL. Mage Haters Proved Wrong indeed!

Grumpy Old Wizard:

A Mage Hawke with Fenris and Aveline providing Staggers will have anything from 4 to 20 Staggers to trigger when optimized. Once the Chain Lightning resolves, all those targets are dead. This is how I can go into non-combat mode in between waves of enemies.

Even when not optimized, a Force Hawke can use Fist of the Maker to snipe away two or threes of Staggered targets every ten seconds, in addition to Chain Lightning. Fighter Hawke doesn't kill things that fast, and mostly is only as fast as he is because Merrill and Anders are helping lots with Chain Lightning and lockdowns.

THIS IS WHY I'M SHOCKED THAT YOU DIDN'T UPGRADE TO MAKER'S HAMMER!

Maker's Hammer boosts Fist's 150+ damage by 900%.  That's 1350+ damage to multiple targets, every ten seconds.  There's your damage right there.

As Mage Hawke, I prioritized damage and CCC over lockdowns - the philosophy being that you don't need to lock down an enemy when he's dead.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 27 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[Nerivant]

Roxlimn wrote...

LOL. Mage Haters Proved Wrong indeed!

Grumpy Old Wizard:

A Mage Hawke with Fenris and Aveline providing Staggers will have anything from 4 to 20 Staggers to trigger when optimized. Once the Chain Lightning resolves, all those targets are dead. This is how I can go into non-combat mode in between waves of enemies.

Even when not optimized, a Force Hawke can use Fist of the Maker to snipe away two or threes of Staggered targets every ten seconds, in addition to Chain Lightning. Fighter Hawke doesn't kill things that fast, and mostly is only as fast as he is because Merrill and Anders are helping lots with Chain Lightning and lockdowns.

THIS IS WHY I'M SHOCKED THAT YOU DIDN'T UPGRADE TO MAKER'S HAMMER!

Maker's Hammer boosts Fist's 150+ damage by 900%.  That's 1350+ damage to multiple targets, every ten seconds.  There's your damage right there.

As Mage Hawke, I prioritized damage and CCC over lockdowns - the philosophy being that you don't need to lock down an enemy when he's dead.

Hemorrhage is the same, and ignores armor/resistances if I'm remembering correctly. It's also fantastic.

[Nukenin]

Nerivant wrote...

Nukenin wrote...
My current mage does nothing but staff autoattacks, an occasional glyph of paralysis, and constantly complain about being out of mana due to the massive sustainables. I'm fine with it, even if it is the equivalent of standing in a corner facing the walls during some fights.

Mana starved? Sick of maintaining your sustainables and neglecting your mage's ability to incinerate Darkspawn and smash armored knights into piles of jelly?

Speak to your nearest Pride Demon and become a Blood Mage today!

No thanks.  My second specialization's gonna be Jed^H^H^HForce Mage!  

(Of course now I'm curious if switching to blood magic would stop the incessant whinging about being almost out of mana.)

I don't even know why I keep lyrium potions around.  I'm the only mage, and I so seldom cast spells that I've usually regenerated the mana necessary before I need it.  Once I get Force Mage this may change.  And a lyrium pot is overkill; it'd replenish twice my max mana.  (I'm operating at only 20% with all the sustains.)

But the thing is, I'm perfectly content with Aveline and Fenris and Varric killing up a storm for me.  I don't need to be the diva!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...
blaa balaa

Theorycraft, theorycraft. Show me the money!!!

Anywayzzzzz, I've got another mage who is up to level 8. Like I said if it is possible for a mage Hawke to kill as fast as warrior Hawke I'll probably be the one to post the videos because so far the "other side" has no videos to  post to back up their claims. Don't worry, maybe I can prove myself wrong and you will be vindicated.

[Gloxgasm]

Does killing 12 mobs with 1 walking bomb count as killing faster then a warrior?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Gloxgasm wrote...

Does killing 12 mobs with 1 walking bomb count as killing faster then a warrior?

Are you claiming to be abl to use walking bomb that way in pretty much every battle on Nightmare? One time freak occurances don't count.

[Gloxgasm]

No, that is how I use walking bomb every battle. Fighting Ser V and the fanatics right now and I think I hit 15+ with a walking bomb.

[godlike13]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

Does killing 12 mobs with 1 walking bomb count as killing faster then a warrior?

Are you claiming to be abl to use walking bomb that way in pretty much every battle on Nightmare? One time freak occurances don't count.

What if its 50/50, does that count?

[kayangelus]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Most people who love to play mages in games don't want to be the sidekick character. When I played table top DnD lonnnng ago the orignal DnD cleric was a healbot/buffboy that the DM had to bribe someone to play by giveing the cleric some cool divine power or something. DA2 mages have been gimped into being the healbot/buffboys but have no cool divine power.

You found a DM that gave you cool divine powers for doing what I enjoy doing in my DnD runs (at least on 4th ed, and 2nd ed, haven't tried others)?  Where can I find a DM that gives you cool extra **** on top of class abilities that already make you have the most important role in the party?

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Sorry, you showed a vidoe of Warrior Hawke. You seem to be rather confused.

And YOU showed a video of Mage Hawke handling the same dragon combat as AreleX's Warrior Hawke did in half the time.  If AreleX's video demonstrates warriors (even with 2 mages in the party), because Hawke is a warrior, then the video you linked demonstrates mages (even though he is controlling a warrior) because Hawke is a mage.

Okay, so now that you have a video of mage hawke party killing **** faster than warrior hawke party I take it you are satisfied with the evidence that mages aren't gimped compared to warriors?

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Sir, you can't possibly know what I want to see and don't want to see.

Considering this is the 26th page since you have started asking for a video, and have been asking for one for all those 26 pages, don't you think this might be a tad bit of a problem? I don't know about you, but personally, when you have spent 26 pages asking for something in a way that you are aware other people can't possibly know what exactly you want, I figure that you are epically doing it wrong.

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Theorycraft, theorycraft. Show me the money!!!

Anywayzzzzz, I've got another mage who is up to level 8. Like I said if it is possible for a mage Hawke to kill as fast as warrior Hawke I'll probably be the one to post the videos because so far the "other side" has no videos to  post to back up their claims. Don't worry, maybe I can prove myself wrong and you will be vindicated.

As per my above quote, you admitted the other side can't possibly know what videos you are looking for. Which makes it kinda hard to get the right videos. I mean, so far there hasn't been a single video in this thread of how fast warrior hawke can kill... All of the warrior slaughter videos involve mage back up.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Finally, the title of this should be changed from "Proof mages are gimp - A simple challenge" to "Proof mages have low DPS - A simple challenge". There is a difference between being gimp, and not outputting competitive DPS.

Modifié par kayangelus, 27 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[Taura-Tierno]

My opinion on mages?

They're good for crowd control because they have lots of AoE. I find that most battles are easier with a mage in the party.

That said ... it's quite fun to play without a mage, too. I'm doing so on my current playthrough. Rogues have a few good crowd control abilities, especially the archers. And when that's not enough, a few bombs usually do the trick.

[Graunt]

Gloxgasm wrote...

No, that is how I use walking bomb every battle. Fighting Ser V and the fanatics right now and I think I hit 15+ with a walking bomb.

If you're talking about the underground fight where non stop fanatics keep pouring out -- err, I'm not saying that's not a fun place to use Walking Bomb, but it's also overkill if you have Tempest since most of those enemies have very low life.  I'm also NOT trying to downplay the potential effective killing power of Walking Bomb either, it's just that I keep finding that even with Pull/Gravitic/Tank@99% resist, the spell is just way too situational.  

It's not really a bad cost to reach with Anders either, it only requires two skill points, but I'm still barely ever finding much use for it, and more often than not when I do land it inside a cluster, the enemy either steps out too far or gets knocked back and the explosion radius only seems like it's 2m even when they are together.

AreleX wrote...

I said I wasn't going to post in here
again, but the ignorance is getting out of hand. I made a video for the
people who have no idea how to get the best out of their companions
(most of you), and for the people who have no idea how to play Warrior,
or how it works (again, most of you). I don't care if I'm coming across
as arrogant; there's nothing more arrogant than acting as if your
opinion has any merit, when, in reality, you don't have the slightest
clue.

Teamwork/Warrior 101

Don't even fix your hands to type something about Warrior unless you know what you're talking about.

Don't worry, some people will fall victim to a case of convenient amnesia after watching this, or will discount it as being an outlier case and that this isn't how the fights "usually" work.

Modifié par Graunt, 28 mars 2011 - 12:13 .

[ezrafetch]

Graunt wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

No, that is how I use walking bomb every battle. Fighting Ser V and the fanatics right now and I think I hit 15+ with a walking bomb.

If you're talking about the underground fight where non stop fanatics keep pouring out -- err, I'm not saying that's not a fun place to use Walking Bomb, but it's also overkill if you have Tempest since most of those enemies have very low life.  I'm also NOT trying to downplay the potential effective killing power of Walking Bomb either, it's just that I keep finding that even with Pull/Gravitic/Tank@99% resist, the spell is just way too situational.  

It's not really a bad cost to reach with Anders either, it only requires two skill points, but I'm still barely ever finding much use for it, and more often than not when I do land it inside a cluster, the enemy either steps out too far or gets knocked back and the explosion radius only seems like it's 2m even when they are together.

Glox is running a solo mage, which means that it's a lot safer to WB everything.  I've actually been wanting to abuse WB a lot more, which means doing an insane thing and running 2 Rogues and 2 Mages.  Mind you, it'd be no where near as effective as 1 Warrior, 1 Rogue, 2 Mages, but it'd be a whole lot more fun blowing stuff up.  Gravitic + WB w/o the chance of blowing up your tank is super saucy. 

[Gloxgasm]

There are a lot of walking bomb tricks you pick up.
For example

Enemy health <10: Next Tactic
Enemy Clustered with at least 3: Next Tactic
Enemy at Medium to Long range: Walking Bomb

Can skip the range part and just micro your tank back.