696 réponses à ce sujet

[Artillis22]

I think mages are a class that is meant to be played in a party and that soloing with one is harder then it is for other classes. I don't think mages are weak, however they are weakER then other classes. This is why when you buy this game you should buy the PC version, It has a large modding community. I downloaded a mod that reduces cool downs on spells / abilities and also a mod that removes the lame class only requirements on items. Makes things more fun and interesting when playing a mage.

[Koshnek]

Jodou wrote...

I think everyone is ignoring the real issue with playing a mage: Carver doesn't die.

I won't lie, I lol'd.

Having said that, I loved mages in DA:O, but there IS something missing for them in DA2. I get bored often. My first play was as a mage, but I quit at the beggning of act 2, and I started a rogue. I really wanted to play thru my frist time as a mage, however, and I started a new mage. A very direct/blunt, power mongering, anti-circle/chantry blood mage. I did the unthinkable, however, and am playing through on normal.Playing a mage Hawk in hard is too annoying.

This was a really upsetting choice for me. I typically play games on the hardest available setting. I'm good enough to get thru, but it usually takes me 1.5-x2 as long as it probably takes others on these difficulties. I enjoy the challenge. On games like God of War 1/2/3, I usually play thru again just for the extra difficulty. Going from Nightmare to Hard, and now on my new mage from Hard to Normal, it really dissapointed me. However, this is the only way I feel I can really enjoy playing my 100% blood mage/ 90% spirit mage/hex mage.

I find "nightmare" is just annoying.. I "can" do it..but without using CCC its stupidly exhausting. (Yes, yes...I know thats probably how it was meant to be played.) With CCC I still find it pretty annoying. There is a LOT of pidgeon holing past just utilizing CCC.

I could set up all my characters to take advantage of CCC..but quite frankly, I dont want to. Not even on my Hard mode Rogue. I plan on respeccing her; I think I'm 100% full-on duelist right now (it really does suck after gauntlet fades), but I want to build my rogue that compliments her personality.

I don't want to put bull**** points on my rogue somewhere that, to me, doesnt make sense for how I envision her, just to pick up CCCs and make the game easier. Unfortunately, how I have built any of my characters so far doesn't take much advantage of CCC. I think I will set up my fourth  play as a warrior (Completely good-hero type tank hawke) up to use CCC. I might even try Nightmare again.

I think that CCC shouldn't be required (and I feel that it really is in nightmare and that would make hard and below stupidly easy). It should just be a nice bonus, like in DA:O. Shattering was nice, as were several other spell combo's, but I could play thru any mode with any combination (preferably including a healer) that I wanted, and still beat the game.

Barring CCC, I also agree with the guy about CDs being too long, and the other (same?) guy who said something along the lines of us getting fewer skills/having to upgrade skills. My gimp deulist rogue is SO MUCH more fun to play than my first hawke mage. I get to use abilities throughout the fight. My mage gets to..wait on cooldowns. All of this is exasperated by the fact that you really DO need to upgrade many mage spells to make use of them. My rogue gets useful upgrades, but they dont feel neccessary. Especially being I dont use much CCC.

Even if you take out all the skills and are just auto attacking. I do backflip kicks, crazy Bloodlusted-Duncan-Avenging-Cailan battle jumps, combat rolls. Its just awesome. What do mages do... they do a little behind-the-back shot...and an unimpressive ground slam that results in an unimpressive little magic poof coming out of the ground. The melee animation is almost the same. 

I really do have a love affair for mages, especially necromancers and battlemages (arcane did an excellent job in DA:O imo). I have to settle for Spirt/Bloodmagic in DA:2. If I didn't like the lore/roleplaying behind mages so much, especially the dark twists with chantry and such in DA, I would not play a mage hawke in DA2.

[Ahglock]

szsleepy wrote...

I think it's hilarious when I check out the character profiles of people who post here, and only Bahanix has a mage that I would consider decent, and she was a spirit healer who couldn't deal damage even if she wanted to.

While I might agree with your premise,(i haven't played enough for a firm opinion) they could be like me and have turned off updates of that kind once they remembered to.  I don;t want my coputer to be senidng info to them unless I specifically tell it to, not every time I log in or whatever.  The more info I can block being sent the better IMO. 

Still I do think it is a telling that the one class that is not pimping tons of look how awesome I am on insanity videos is the mage. 

[Koshnek]

Also, while I get at what you're saying about mages being unable to solo, I agree with the others...

Its not really helping your argument. You're not meant to solo in this game. It may be possible for rogues and warriors, and by that logic it should be possible for mages, but that's not what this game is about.

Although this might be hypocritical coming from the guy who doesn't make much use of CCC, which IS what this game is about, lol.

[CLime]

I've heard both sides of the argument on this forum, and I'm still convinced that half of you out there have no idea what you're talking about when you say that you think that hamburgers are fine.

To start, I want to say that I KNOW that food is meant to be cooked and that the refridgerator was put in place for a reason.  Even still, I want to prove to you that hamburgers are completely and totally gimped compared to the other foods.

The rules:

1) Go buy some ground burger meat (at a grocery store, even an all-natural one, it doesn't matter)
2) After you get back home, leave the meat out on your countertop for a few hours.
3) From here, eat it as you normally would, eating it without cooking or preparation of any sort.
4) If you have friends over, use only a bun and ketchup, and immediately remove the condiments from the burger once everyone leaves.

-- Once you're sick and tired of e. coli, try it again with a watermelon.  And again after that with a loaf of bread.

This should prove to ANYONE, beyond any shadow of a doubt that hamburgers are simply not on par with the other food groups.

I'll be surprised if anyone actually does this challenge and comes away thinking hamburgers are fine.

Modifié par CLime, 19 mars 2011 - 06:26 .

[MythicalKnight]

CLime wrote...

I've heard both sides of the argument on this forum, and I'm still convinced that half of you out there have no idea what you're talking about when you say that you think that hamburgers are fine.

To start, I want to say that I KNOW that food is meant to be cooked and that the refridgerator was put in place for a reason.  Even still, I want to prove to you that hamburgers are completely and totally gimped compared to the other foods.

The rules:

1) Go buy some ground burger meat (at a grocery store, even an all-natural one, it doesn't matter)
2) After you get back home, leave the meat out on your countertop for a few hours.
3) From here, eat it as you normally would, eating it without cooking or preparation of any sort.
4) If you have friends over, use only a bun and ketchup, and immediately remove the condiments from the burger once everyone leaves.

-- Once you're sick and tired of e. coli, try it again with a watermelon.  And again after that with a loaf of bread.

This should prove to ANYONE, beyond any shadow of a doubt that hamburgers are simply not on par with the other food groups.

I'll be surprised if anyone actually does this challenge and comes away thinking hamburgers are fine.

Unless we're afraid to do so amiright?? 
:whistle::whistle:

[SpectreVerner]

I did the challenge and I soloed the entire game and killed all bosses in one hit. Your argument is invalid.

[szsleepy]

CLime wrote...

I've heard both sides of the argument on this forum, and I'm still convinced that half of you out there have no idea what you're talking about when you say that you think that hamburgers are fine.

To start, I want to say that I KNOW that food is meant to be cooked and that the refridgerator was put in place for a reason.  Even still, I want to prove to you that hamburgers are completely and totally gimped compared to the other foods.

The rules:

1) Go buy some ground burger meat (at a grocery store, even an all-natural one, it doesn't matter)
2) After you get back home, leave the meat out on your countertop for a few hours.
3) From here, eat it as you normally would, eating it without cooking or preparation of any sort.
4) If you have friends over, use only a bun and ketchup, and immediately remove the condiments from the burger once everyone leaves.

-- Once you're sick and tired of e. coli, try it again with a watermelon.  And again after that with a loaf of bread.

This should prove to ANYONE, beyond any shadow of a doubt that hamburgers are simply not on par with the other food groups.

I'll be surprised if anyone actually does this challenge and comes away thinking hamburgers are fine.

I LOL'd. 

[Inchoroi]

If you can't agree on the premise, then no conclusion can be reached. It may sound like English, but you are speaking different languages. Even if one side of this discussion somehow managed to see the view from the other side and you came to an agreement, it isn't like there would be a patch next week to address whatever conclusion you all agreed on.

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...


You miss my point entirely.

No, it is YOU who miss the point entirely, or you are playing on Casual/Normal.  On those difficulty levels you can pretty much take an all melee group and steamroll most everything and survive with just healing potions alone.  This doesn't work on Nightmare at all.  When complaining about what class is or isn't weak, you have to compare them under the harshest conditions, and Casual/Normal are definitely NOT that.  Even Hard is mostly "not" hard enough to matter since a two-handed Warrior can almost solo everything with ease.

If you would only stop to consider just for a moment what I'm trying to say with all of this, I think that you would appreciate it for what it's worth.

I know exactly what you're saying and it's just not correct at all.  Would I be against lowering the cooldowns of their single target spells by 5s minimum across the board?  Definitely not, but besides that, they aren't anywhere nearly as broken as you suggest.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[Amioran]

szsleepy wrote...
For this whole time, I've been adamant that mages have been minced in DA2 and I still believe that with all my heart.

And you are wrong. Facts are not so easy to dismiss, don't you know?

szsleepy wrote...
People criticize, saying that the CCCs that a mage is capable of is what makes a mage a mage. And I can agree, to a point. But there is nothing "visceral" about hitting the space bar every .5 seconds to set up what amounts to be exhaustive and nothing more than a game of chess. Graunt talked about the slow pace of gameplay and I have to agree. Playing mage effectively requires exactly that kind of deliberate and tactical gameplay that makes mages as powerful as you all claim.

And what's so wrong with it? Example of FACT: a mage with a CCC combo with Hemorrhage can do an insane amount of damage to ALL targets in the area. The damage on endgame is about 20-25k for every staggered enemy in the AOE. No other class can do the same. Consider for example 6 enemies in the AOE: it's 132k average.

Bottom line: you are wrong. You are talking about DAMAGE, and facts proves you wrong.

szsleepy wrote...
On that very same note, with only a little bit of tweaking for party tactics, the rogue and warrior both can be played in real time, on nightmare difficulty, and the experience is definitely visceral, engaging and submersive.

This has NOTHING to do with a class being "gimped" or not. Your preference on how to play has not the minimal role at all in the discussion you brought. For me now you are trying to lead the discussion to other things because you have obviously been proven wrong by others.

szsleepy wrote...
I sincerely believe that you all have your heads up your own ***es.

Good to know you cannot stand being proven wrong.

szsleepy wrote...
I'm done with this thread. I've done all I can. If you choose to remain ignorant to blatant imbalance, then that's your perogative.

The only one that remains igorant on how things really work here is you. You simply ignore all that you don't want to hear and just focus on what you like. This way you cannot have an objective view on the thing. 

You should study a little more what the term "igorance" really means. You will see that it fits perfectly the way you are acting.
 

szsleepy wrote...
I called you all out, and not a single one of you would take the challenge because you already know the truth.

Your "challenge" is just an idiocy. The terms are not the same for all the classes and roles. It would be like saying that a rally driver is "weaker" in respect to a F1 driver because he needs a co-pilot.

More, your "challenge" is based on a gameplay aspect that fits only certain roles. Play in nightmare and everything changes. What you say makes no sense just because you create your own rules to abide to, to pretend you have a point.
 

szsleepy wrote...
Mages are not balanced. Mages are weak and cannot be played the same way a rogue or warrior can. If the "visceral" quality of the game were applied to all classes, then there would be nothing to say here.

A) Mages are perfectly balanced within their role and in respect to the other classes.
Mages SHOULDN'T be played as a rogue or a warrior. If you do that then that's your problem. Neither in DAO you could, apart for AW and some cheesy tactic.
C) The "visceral" quality is applied to all classes. The problem is that what you define "visceral" is completely different from what the word really mean.

Modifié par Amioran, 19 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Graunt]

Amioran wrote...

And what's so wrong with it? Example of FACT: a mage with a CCC combo with Hemorrhage can do an insane amount of damage to ALL targets in the area. The damage on endgame is about 20-25k for every staggered enemy in the AOE. No other class can do the same. Consider for example 6 enemies in the AOE: it's 132k average.

Err, it's not nearly that high on Nightmare on non critter level creatures, but yes...Hemorrhage is insanely powerful at group clearing and it's not too shabby for elites either.

~Mage CCCs~
Stonefist (15s) - Disoriented: single target
Chain Lightning (20s) - Staggered: AoE, does NOT hit friendly party members
Spirit Bolt (10s) - Disoriented: single target
Walking Bomb (30s) - Disoriented: AoE, hits friendly (I think)
Crushing Prison (30s) - Staggered: single target, paralyzes
Fist of the Maker (10s) - Staggered: Stuns, AoE (unsure if this hits friendly or not)
Hemorrhage (30s) - Staggered: AoE, required blood (unsure if hits friendly)

Walking Bomb and Fist of the Maker do FF, although sometimes with Fist it's worth it just because it gets most of it's damage from the stagger part.  Hemorrhage does not have FF however.  Paralyzing Prison shouldn't be a consideration though.  The damage on it is a complete joke on Nightmare and you actually have to have an enemy staggered just to see it's listed base damage...

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[Amioran]

Graunt wrote...

Amioran wrote...

And what's so wrong with it? Example of FACT: a mage with a CCC combo with Hemorrhage can do an insane amount of damage to ALL targets in the area. The damage on endgame is about 20-25k for every staggered enemy in the AOE. No other class can do the same. Consider for example 6 enemies in the AOE: it's 132k average.

Err, it's not nearly that high on Nightmare on non critter level creatures, but yes...Hemorrhage is insanely powerful at group clearing and it's not too shabby for elites either.

That was the abosolute maximum I did on a group on Nightmare. Not average, but still, since we are talking about hyperboles... I really doubt the OP consider the damage done by a warrior or rogue in average for the matter at hand. So why shouldn't I?

[Dohling82]

Mages are week?
Its a proof that the Templers has the contoll over the dev team and not only of Kirkwall ...

[szsleepy]

Graunt wrote...
This doesn't work on Nightmare at all.  

WRONG.





ENJOY.

Modifié par szsleepy, 19 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[CLime]

szsleepy wrote...

I LOL'd. 

Thanks, I hope you didn't miss the point in the meantime.  Acknowledging the importance of context and then ignoring it entirely isn't going to sway many opinions.

Inchoroi wrote...

If you can't agree on the premise, then
no conclusion can be reached. It may sound like English, but you are
speaking different languages. Even if one side of this discussion
somehow managed to see the view from the other side and you came to an
agreement, it isn't like there would be a patch next week to address
whatever conclusion you all agreed on.

Wise words.  Both sides need to agree on the parameters if there's to be any hope of consensus.

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...
This doesn't work on Nightmare at all.  

WRONG.





ENJOY.

A lot of the damage in that fight is coming from Elemental Weapons, courtesy mage.

Modifié par CLime, 19 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[Ace Attorney]

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...
This doesn't work on Nightmare at all.  

WRONG.





ENJOY.

Not solo.
Mages are supporting! Buffs, Barriers, Elemental Weapons, Heroic Aura, etcetera 

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...

I think it's hilarious when I check out the character profiles of people who post here, and only Bahanix has a mage that I would consider decent, and she was a spirit healer who couldn't deal damage even if she wanted to.

Ironically, my Mage has a similar build, except that I took Blood over Spirit Healer, because Spirit Healer isn't even needed for anything.  In fact, you don't need more than the 80% heal for anything in the game.  For whatever reason, my profile won't upload.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[szsleepy]

CLime wrote...


A lot of the damage in that fight is coming from Elemental Weapons, courtesy mage.

Are you kidding?  The purple numbers (from Elemental Weapons) are coming up TINY compared to the white ability damage from the warriors.  Clean your glasses, man.

[Wissenschaft]

Graunt wrote...

Stetzer13 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

szsleepy wrote...
Also, on a side note, I would argue up and down that the warrior and rogue are far more capable of "setting up the battlespace" with more talents for that purpose than the mage has.  Mage has Winter's Grasp, Cone of Cold, and Petrify.  That's IT.

Yep, that's it.  It's not like they have an ability that can slow the movement and attack speed of all enemies in a very large radius that can also completely paralyze bosses for 20 seconds or anything like that.

Most of the CC doesn't even work on bosses.

Gravitic works on practically everything except ACT end bosses.

You realize that Rogues have Hail of Arrows which debuffs attack and movement speed of all enemies inside it?  Also, what boss can be paralyzed for 20 seconds?  It sure isn't the Ancient Rock Wraith.  Most of the CC I used on Nightmare/Hard didn't work on the harder enemies.

Hail of Arrows isn't even remotely similar.  Have you even used it?  Also, trying reading before replying.  I said everything but ACT end bosses.  There hasn't been a single elite/super elite that Gravitic has not worked on.

Put up a video, gaunt. I'd love to see that dragon get owned by a solo mage. Must have been fun. 

[szsleepy]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Mages are supporting! Buffs, Barriers, Elemental Weapons, Heroic Aura, etcetera 

Again you miss the point.  Can you play a mage with that pace?  Real time?  No heals?  Hell no.

VISCERAL.

It's all about submersion here, folks.  It's not about solo, it never was.  It's about pacing.  The mage is BORING to play because it requires the pace and deliberation of Big Blue.

Warriors and rogues are intense, fun, and exhilarating to play.  Mages suffer from the kind of pause-dependant down's syndrome one would expect from Final Fantasy Tactics.

[szsleepy]

I want to be able to play a mage like the warriors in those two videos. Visceral. Involved. Cerebral. Intense. Exciting.

Not this chess champion bull-kaka.

[Amioran]

szsleepy wrote...
Again you miss the point.  Can you play a mage with that pace?  Real time?  No heals?  Hell no.

No, it's you that change the point depending on what it feels better for you at the time. Firstly the point was damage, but you have been proven wrong so then it changed to who can play the game solo. Being proven wrong also there you now changed to visceral gameplay (whatever that means).

I repeat: "visceral" gameplay can mean many things. A game of chess can be much more visceral than a soccer game, I assure you, it always depends on your knowledge on what is being shown.

[Graunt]

Amioran wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Amioran wrote...

And what's so wrong with it? Example of FACT: a mage with a CCC combo with Hemorrhage can do an insane amount of damage to ALL targets in the area. The damage on endgame is about 20-25k for every staggered enemy in the AOE. No other class can do the same. Consider for example 6 enemies in the AOE: it's 132k average.

Err, it's not nearly that high on Nightmare on non critter level creatures, but yes...Hemorrhage is insanely powerful at group clearing and it's not too shabby for elites either.

That was the abosolute maximum I did on a group on Nightmare. Not average, but still, since we are talking about hyperboles... I really doubt the OP consider the damage done by a warrior or rogue in average for the matter at hand. So why shouldn't I?

Yes, because one time I hit six enemies for 6k each with a Whirlwind where every hit crit and I was also sitting at 10% health getting a huge Blood Frenzy bonus, so obviously Warriors always do this much, and they never have to auto attack for pitiful amounts of damage per hit.  I also used Assassinate and landed an 82k crit on a single target, so obviously my Rogue always does this much damage per hit.

[Graunt]

szsleepy wrote...

Graunt wrote...
This doesn't work on Nightmare at all.  

WRONG.





ENJOY.

What the hell does this have to do with anything you've said?  Do you not see the fact that there's not one, but TWO Mages in this group?  Are you seriously this daft?

Put up a video, gaunt. I'd love to see that dragon get owned by a solo mage. Must have been fun. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png

I don't have any video capturing software to use or a Youtube account at the moment.  This is however a compelling reason to get them just to prove how utterly incorrect the OP and his ideas are though.  It wasn't actually as much "fun" as it was "tedious" but at the same time hilarious because the dragon simply can't do anything.  You can also just run around in circles until Gravitic refreshes, then cast it again and start firing away. I did the same thing again later on during the expedition and just used the stairs, dog, Gravitic and staff to kill it.

The biggest downside to the spell is the fact that it affects allies too, unlike Tempest, Hemorrhage and Chain Lightning.  It doesn't affect you however.  Plus, I think it's really a blance reason.  Try playing with it on Hard and look at how utterly broken it is when your Warrior(s)/melee Rogue(s) can literally go to town on something that's frozen in place for 20 seconds.  The biggest loss for me is the auto attack staggers from Aveline, but she can still land the Shield Bashes and Assaults no problem.

If one wants to complain about Mages not having lasting power ("solo") against swarms, they actually do if you have the upgraded Death Syphon up.  Force/Primal/Blood can control pretty much everything with ease and keep on going.  The ONLY enemies they have any problems with are Assassins if Gravitic is not up, but you can still stun them, knock them down, petrify them and knock them away with Telekinetic Burst.  The main issue with them though is when they stealth -- you simply run away until their stealth wears.  This isn't so different from a Rogue stealthing either.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 mars 2011 - 07:32 .