34 réponses à ce sujet

[jweath]

Is it just me. It seems like they have taken the most exterme conversative and liberal views and put them to life. The mages take the place of Muslims and the Templars are the US response with some national socialism mixed in (the most exterme accussation of the liberals concerning the war on terror). The whole change is coming thing sounded like an Obama speech. It seems the game paints the law and order conservatives as National Socialists and the Muslims are all terrorist just waiting for their chance like Orisno who suddenly unexplainable becomes a blood mage abomination (terrorist) for no reason. It is like every left and right wingnut conspiracy came to life.

[EricHVela]

That's quite a conspiracy theory you have there.

[ExistsAlready]

Needs more chemtrails and fluoride.

[DrGulag]

It's not exactly hard to find parallels when Anders blows up a church with civilians inside and then speaks about martyrdom.

The only thing missing was Varric stating before the credits roll :

"One man's terrorist is another m..."

And in the end isnt Dragon Age all about Morrigans/Flemeths "change we can all believe in. "

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 05:03 .

[TheBlackBaron]

ExistsAlready wrote...

Needs more chemtrails and fluoride.

[Shepard Lives]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

ExistsAlready wrote...

Needs more chemtrails and fluoride.

[LobselVith8]

The slavery element that's brought up by a few characters, and can even be brought up by Hawke, makes it irrevocably different from the war on terror.

[DrGulag]

The slavery element that's brought up by a few characters, and can even be brought up by Hawke, makes it irrevocably different from the war on terror.

Palestin...mages with restricted human rights locked up in Gaz...Circle of Magi? Blowing people to oblivion while the Israe...templars are there to safeguard normal citizens and normal musl...magic practitioners from the crazy ones?




.....

Just playing devils advocate here.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[Shacary]

Idk, slavery might be part of terrorism in the aspect of certain races/sexes beign squelched and " cleansed" thru ethnic battles is many countries. Its sad if that is where they based the story from, it already felt rushed and not well thought thru to be honest. I didnt hate the game, but i didnt like it based on the laureals of its predecessors.

[lx_theo]

Meh, it fits it as well as it fits tons of historical events of similar types. No reason to think it satire for that specifically.

[LobselVith8]

DrGulag wrote...

Palestin...mages with restricted human rights locked up in Gaz...Circle of Magi? Blowing people to oblivion while the Israe...templars are there to safeguard normal citizens and normal musl...magic practitioners from the crazy ones?

You're equating between enslaved by the Chantry for a thousand years and occassionally being wiped out, turned tranquil, raped, or tortured with being segregated from the rest of the nation? I'm curious.

[DrGulag]

You're equating between enslaved by the Chantry for a thousand years and
occassionally being wiped out, turned tranquil, raped, or tortured with
being segregated from the rest of the nation? I'm curious.

The chantries are there to safeguard majority from the possible extremists. And not all of them are bad, the crazy templars are in the minority. And we don't even know rape is occurring, just a couple of rumours in Kirkwall which is the harshest circle in Thedas. Most of the mages are living peacefully inside their own community but it's better to keep them separated just in case. I dont want any fireballs going off accidently while doing my elfroot shopping in the Denerim market

I wonder what the political punditry is like in Thedas.

"Yes and I'm not saying kill them all! Not every mage is an abomination but all abominations are mages!"

*applause*

"You idiot! And you think giving the government more power with this latest change to Rite of Annulment is going to help"

*applause*

"Fighting against the darkspawn costs us too much money my fellow Orlesians. And we still have no proof that the Archdemon ever even existed in Ferelden! Where is the proof?! I say bring our Wardens home."

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[LobselVith8]

DrGulag wrote...

The chantries are there to safeguard majority from the possible extremists.

By enslaving them.

DrGulag wrote...

And not all of them are bad, the crazy templars are in the minority. And we don't even know rape is occurring, just a couple of rumours in Kirkwall which is the harshest circle in Thedas.

We do know rape is transpiring. That's why the templar outright says he's going to rape the mage when she's made tranquil during Anders' second quest in Act II, and why the mage Ser Thrask saves admits that he's being raped if you don't kill the templars in Act of Mercy.

DrGulag wrote...

Most of the mages are living peacefully inside their own community but it's better to keep them separated just in case.

You mean they're enslaved to the Chantry with no basic rights. Just listen to the tranquil tell her beloved at the Gallows that she doesn't remember him, and that only Knight-Captain Cullen can command her.

[Rybciek]

No. Terrorism is not something that suddenly appeared after 9/11. Surprisingly, the U.S is not the epicentre of the Universe. Its war on terror thing is not even a particularly remarkable case of war or terrorism, and its parallels with this game can only be loosely applied.

[DrGulag]

By enslaving them.

Let me ask you a question. And here's a real life comparison which is pretty pointless since we are talking about Dragon Age and Thedas, the most lunatic driven society ever invented, but I'll shoot anyway :

Say instead of just a bunch of lunatics being responsible for an act of terrorism....

The majority of the world population actually believed/knew that one of the religions on earth was responsible for corrupting paradise, making God abandon us and creating the most brutal disease known to mankind.

And not only that but the followers of this religion had the capability to heal people and shoot fire/lightning from their hands. But at the same, without doing so willingly, were capable of suddendly turning into demons from hell which would start eating and slaughtering everyone within their reach. And this could happen any second to anyone of these people. Majority of them would be peaceful but when pushed, they would resort to summoning demons.

So what kind of laws do you think we would have in place or what do you think most of would prefer?
"Give my damn human rights, just like Jimmy Carter said!"

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[LobselVith8]

DrGulag, part of the premise of Dragon Age 2 is having the right to side with either the templars or the mages, and that's the whole premise of your inquiry. Do you follow Fenris' line of thinking - that mages should be imprisoned, or perhaps you think Anders is correct when he says mages should be free? That's part of what Hawke has to decide when he or she is in Kirkwall, and it's ultimately the decision faced at the end when we decide whether we will help Meredith cull the mages or side against her to protect them. I sided with the mages as an apostate Hawke, personally.

[DrGulag]

Oh yeah and I forgot. One of the most powerful countries on earth was ruled by a theocracy of this said religion (Tevinter Imperium) and over there normal people were used as cattle (blood sacrifices) for dark rituals.

Suddendly the attitudes towards mages in Thedas do not sound so extreme anymore?

DrGulag, part of the premise of Dragon Age 2 is having the right to side
with either the templars or the mages, and that's the whole premise of
your inquiry. Do you follow Fenris' line of thinking - that mages should
be imprisoned, or perhaps you think Anders is correct when he says
mages should be free? That's part of what Hawke has to decide when he or
she is in Kirkwall, and it's ultimately the decision faced at the end
when we decide whether we will help Meredith cull the mages or side
against her to protect them. I sided with the mages as an apostate
Hawke, personally.

I sided with the templars and gave mercy to those who surrendered. They were clearly too dangerous to everyone, even the first enchanter was partly responsible for murdering my mother and turned into a hellspawn.

But I would have preferred to leave Kirkwall and let those lunatics kill each other. Or side with the Qunari and raze the whole city lol.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[LobselVith8]

DrGulag wrote...

Oh yeah and I forgot. One of the most powerful countries on earth was ruled by a theocracy of this said religion (Tevinter Imperium) and over there normal people were used as cattle (blood sacrifices) for dark rituals.

And now we have the Chantry enslaving mages across the continent. Tevinter 2.0.

[DrGulag]

And now we have the Chantry enslaving mages across the continent. Tevinter 2.0.

It's done for the safety of majority so there's a rational reasoning behind it. Not some crazy lunatics offering people to demons and stuff.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 06:40 .

[LobselVith8]

DrGulag wrote...

And now we have the Chantry enslaving mages across the continent. Tevinter 2.0.

It's done for the safety of majority so there's a rational reasoning behind it. Not some crazy lunatics offering people to demons and stuff.

They're enslaving mages, and we can debate the real reasons behind this until our faces turn blue, but I doubt we'll reach a consensus. There's no proof to indicate that the Chantry is doing this for the safety of the common man, and the History of the Circle codex tells us that mages were segregated as a result of protesting their lack of rights.

[DrGulag]

No, thank you. There are games that allow you to play the loner with the unspecified background. Some are fun. But not EVERY game needs to go that route.

No proof?

I would assume many of the templars believe they are doing the right thing. But when you have a military force with full authority to govern a group of people... there will be problems.

Even Meredith, who went way too far (Lyrium corruption or not), stated that her actions were a burden in her heart but it had to be done for the safety of every non-mage.

What the chantry sisters believe doesn't really matter at this point. Mages are dangerous in Thedas. They can turn into abominations at any second and some (almost everyone in DA2) resort to blood magic.

Bottom line : Thedas is a miserable place to live in. Human rights are non-existant. I have more sympathy towards the elves though, they are suffering because of racism and are a no threat to anyone.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 07:54 .

[jweath]

Rybciek wrote...

No. Terrorism is not something that suddenly appeared after 9/11. Surprisingly, the U.S is not the epicentre of the Universe. Its war on terror thing is not even a particularly remarkable case of war or terrorism, and its parallels with this game can only be loosely applied.

Granted but the parallels are there intentionally or not. You have the argument that mages only turned to blood magic because the chantry enslaved them and they are doing what they can to fight back. That parallels closely those who argue the Palestinians and Arabs have been politically enslaved by the US and Israel and terrorism is their only way to fight back. I am not of that opinion but it has been an argument that is floating around.

You have the tension between civil liberities and the need for order and protection as part of the main story line. You also have a hardline religious faction in the Qunari trying to make war over a lost relic (possible parallel to the temple mount and "sacred" lands).  This is not just war on terror either. Taking the National Socialist theme with the tranquil solution and rite of annulment we also see the parallel to US internment of Japanese, Italians, and Germans in WWII as well as the holocaust.

Whereas I don't believe it is solely based on the war on terror, WWII parallels are also obvious, it is hard to say that recent events in America, which is not the world epicenter but where the game was developed, did not influence the story and some elements purposely or not seem satrical to the current US situation. It may be going too far but one might even read the Bush administration into Meredith. Liberals claim he stole the election and he was the religious right. It was his administration when old issues going back to the Alein and Sedition acts arose again in America and large public debate began again about civil liberties versus protection. Again comparing Meredith to Bush may be a stretch that was unintended but it is hard to say the events since 2001 in America did not influence the American based design team in writing the story.

They obviously intentionally drew off the Holocaust as well. Now if they really wanted to make that influence more obvious, Meredith would have framed Anders for the burning of the Reichstag, uhhm I mean, Chantry. They did not want to go that far with it but the tranquil solution and underground mage escape routes are obvious intentional parallels to 1930's to 1945 Germany. As is the mad person making the decision on a final solution after a subordinate well down the chain suggests it. At least in DA2, there was a reason given for the madness.

The story line is also really a more in depth version of circle tower in DAO. You have blood mages rebelling again and a choice to use the rite of annulment or not. The difference is a somewhat happy or at least less dark ending was possible to circle tower.

Again none of this makes a bad story line. The original V series was a holocaust resistance story that the networks wanted rewritten into Sci-Fi. The visitors became the National Socialists with a twist. It works but it does seem a bit trite which keeps it from feeling fresh and original like DAO did.

[jweath]

To sum up. I can see the holocaust theme rehash but would this game been made with the central theme of protection of the many versus civil rights and protection of the few been made in 1999? I think not. The US is not the epicenter of world events but the game was designed by a US team. The holocaust elements certainly could have been part of the game in 1999 but I doubt the civil rights versus protection theme and both sides turning out to be bad guys would have been the theme prior to 2001.

[highcastle]

I don't think satire is quite the right word. The game obviously takes some influences from current real world political situations, but I don't think it's attempt is to satirize them. And you also can't look at the story as straight-up allegory. Thedas is a fantasy world. The mages may be oppressed, but they also carry vast cosmic power at their fingertips and have wrought unspeakable havoc before. So both sides have their justification, while it's difficult for many of us to see real world factions in that light.

[TexasToast712]

I swear, 90% of this forum will see a brown skinned bearded man with a towl on his head driving a taxi and scream terrorist.