34 réponses à ce sujet

[MPSai]

 Really? Who thought ham-handed N.azi allusions would be just the thing for a fantasy story?

Also wasn't Anders in the Fereldan Circle of Magi? Do they really spend all day telling mages there that they're cursed sinners?  If so why do they even let them learn and practice magic in the first place? Obviously this could just be Anders' bias talking, but this heightened focus on mage oppression in DA2 seems to be creating some plotholes.

But I haven't beaten the game yet so maybe this pans out, but my immersion was just shattered when I heard this stuff. 

Modifié par MPSai, 19 mars 2011 - 05:02 .

[DrGulag]

There's already a thread about this check it out  :

http://social.biowar...index/6616748/1

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[MPSai]

Well these forums have no search =P

Besides my grief is with the concept of it as obvious, groan-worthy symbolism than as an in-game choice.

Modifié par MPSai, 19 mars 2011 - 05:09 .

[Shacary]

I didnt see the previous thread either so I answer here, I thought in DAA Anders told my warden how mages whom have gone thru the harrowing cannot be made tranquil. I mean so that part is totally stupid anyways.
And i agree Mpsai, this whole story line was slow and tedious and a bitter pill to swallow, no matter what choices u make, nothing changes the plot. Its like playing a movie with an occasional wheel to add your two cents, but the movie plays on and you are just a fly banging against the screen.

[DrGulag]

Yeah it's a big problem and I wasnt blaming you, because so many people have just finished the games and want to discuss about various incidents and lore.

There really should be a search option and more moderators to guide.

Just helping out.

But to answer shortly. We really cant compare the society in Thedas to our own, because normal people believe in Dragon Age that magic created the blight , corrupted heaven and made God abandon them. So it's basically a disease to almost everyone but mages themselves.

The templars are there to safeguard society with harsh methods, because every mage is a potential demon from fade to your ordinary citizen. Making people tranquil is seen as a way to let them live if they cant cope with the harrowing...an alternative to just chopping their heads off.

Some people prefer death and some take the medicine.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[MPSai]

I'm not making the comparison myself, I'm saying the allusion to "The Final Solution" is so bleeding obvious that it pains me a writer would think it was a good idea.

[DrGulag]

Yeah it's lazy writing.

I found it annoying they used it and then there is the whole fundamentalist chantry bombing and Anders speaking about martyrdom.

You have the WW2 and fundamentalist religious elements so that everyone gets what the story is all about. I would have preferred something else.

Modifié par DrGulag, 19 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[Akron1983]

I think its one of those "Its so bad that its good" things. I groaned too, and then I giggled.
Its a bad "joke" thats for sure but not bad enough for me not to just let it pass. I guess its also used to give you the feeling that mages are in pretty much the same situation as the jews were during WW2.

[MPSai]

Akron1983 wrote...

I think its one of those "Its so bad that its good" things. I groaned too, and then I giggled.
Its a bad "joke" thats for sure but not bad enough for me not to just let it pass. I guess its also used to give you the feeling that mages are in pretty much the same situation as the jews were during WW2.

Except no, they're not. And for another thing making Holocaust allusions is just about as lazy and shallow as making N.azis the bad guys in a movie. Only Indiana Jones can get away with that 

And I still have a problem with the plotholes this creates. I don't even like Anders. I didn't even like Awakening. And even I know he was in the Fereldan Circle. Until this point I thought this extremist anti-Mage stuff was a problem unique to Kirkwall or the Free Marches. 

I mean I just remember Wynne describing the Circle as a gilded cage but on the whole a peaceful place of learning. Now all Circles are abusing mages? And I still don't know why they'd even let them use magic if all Circles had this attitude. 

Modifié par MPSai, 19 mars 2011 - 05:26 .

[Glorfindel709]

Except the jews werent secretly planning on sacrificing German-born citizens to demons and turning into Harvesters.

The entirety of the Mage/Templar conflict came off as poorly written. The mages kept defending themselves in conversation that they werent all evil maleficars or abominations, and that they could be good kind members of society as much as anyone else. But then every mage you encounter is either an abomination, a blood mage, insane, evil, or a combination of the four. The Templars kept acting like they were the benevolent protectors of society and mages and that they were doing only what was necessary, but almost every templar except Cullen, Thrask, and Keran came off as sadists who take more than joy in what they do to the Mages.

The Tranquil solution was the most inane reference to N.azism that I have ever found in a game not specifically related to the N.azis.

The Chantry controls the Templars - the fact that the Grand Cleric stood by as the number of Tranquil grew and grew or more abuses were reported because she wanted the Knight Commander and First Enchanter to work it out themselves was so counter-factual and stupid that it boggled the mind.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A) Anders is influenced and corrupted by the presence of the twisted Justice/Vengence.
 He mentions in Awakening Templars during the capture that would wake him up by kicking him in the head and such. Templar cruelty probably existed everywhere, and Anders took it extremely personally.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 19 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[LobselVith8]

There were good templars and bad templars, and good mages and bad mages. You had ample reason to see the flaws and problems with both sides, and I don't think one side came off having a white or black hat. It was a complex issue because while mages should be trained, was the Chantry controlled Circle the right solution when it seemed to be causing problems? These were issues that had to be decided by Hawke, and other characters had dual perceptions on the issue: just listen to Fenris defend what the templars were doing while Anders ralled against it as slavery. Deciding what was right and wrong was entirely up to Hawke because things were morally ambiguous.

[Glorfindel709]

@Lobsel, I disagree with you entirely about the presence of any moral ambiguity. It was less of a "No side is necessarily good or bad" to a more "All mages are evil insane big bads, the leader of the temple is a paranoid schizo corrupted by the lyrium idol and the Templars in general are blindly following orders or are sadists."

The entire conflict felt very cheap to me and the only reason Hawke sided with the mages was that I expected a "Just to be sure" cutscene where Meredith runs the character through for being an apostate.

[Darian Tylmare]

Well it is extremely poor to allude to the holocaust. But I think people should start getting to another phase, remembrance instead of always saying it. It happened nearly 80 years ago and we should be apart from it so much right now that we should only say it was a terrible thing that happened, but not always come up with it when there's the slightest way it's mentioned.

[LobselVith8]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

@Lobsel, I disagree with you entirely about the presence of any moral ambiguity. It was less of a "No side is necessarily good or bad" to a more "All mages are evil insane big bads, the leader of the temple is a paranoid schizo corrupted by the lyrium idol and the Templars in general are blindly following orders or are sadists.

Except all mages aren't insane big bads, which is evident from the mages we run across who don't use blood magic or the others who simply want to be free, while we also meet templars who aren't morally repellant rapists and murders. From Ser Thrask to Knight-Captain Cullen who were pretty good people, or the young Orlesian noble who only wants to finally experience what it's like to be with a woman or the female mage who only wanted to finally see her family, or even Anders' friend Karl who simply didn't want to live life as a "templar puppet." There were good and bad people on both sides of the Chantry & Templar v. mage and apostate argument.

[Glorfindel709]

Lobsel - name me five mages that you encounter in the game who are not insane big bads. I have two - the woman you saved from Anders, the Orlesian Noble. That's it. Alain, the morally upstanding mage from Starkhaven still uses Blood Magic. Quentin, necromancy and killing your mother. Grace, blood magic, insane, and abomination. The other two mages in the quest that Meredith gives you, blood mage abominations. almost every encounter that had a mage in the group, blood magic. The Bloodreaper gang that ambushes you in High Town. Orsino becoming a damn Harvester and helping Quentin do his research.

And notice that with the templars I mentioned in my first post that except for Cullen and Thrask and Keran, every templar that you associate with comes off as either willfully committing atrocities or blindly following the orders of an obvious madwoman.

[MPSai]

It's an attempt at moral ambiguity anyway. "Mages are innocent victims, now here's one slaughtering people and feeding their blood to demons, makes ya think huh!?" I mean, I can see what they were trying to do but it's executed poorly and way too over the top to take seriously.

Modifié par MPSai, 19 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[mesmerizedish]

I thought that this thread was going to be a "Tranquil Solution"/"Final Solution" semantic discussion.

I just thought "Couldn't they have called it something different?" It's not tasteless or anything, just... unoriginal.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 19 mars 2011 - 06:36 .

[Shacary]

totally agree mpsai. I found it difficult given the in game examples to support either side, but I finally chose the Mages as i gathered this is the route the game really wanted us to go , but really, it was such a messy story line, that in reality if i had had the choice i would have jsut killed them all and been damned, also agree with Glorifindel709, I only really ran into two psychotic templars, meredith as one of them and the dude that tries to kill you for rescuing escaped mages [ cant remember the toad's name ]
while ya the mages were all just about evil ... even the ones you tried to grant a modicum of kindness too. Like one statement hawke could choose, Blood magic doesnt make a mage insane.
it wasnt that they performed blood magic that decided it for me, it was the abomination and lets kill u all that made me feel like murdering the mages.

[Glorfindel709]

I don't have a problem with Blood Magic - see my sig - but the problem is that Blood Magic is one of the reasons the Templars are applying more pressure.

[TJPags]

Totally agree with the TC and the OP.

Using horrific history as the basis for plotlines in a video game is NOT a good idea.

The holocaust, 9/11 are not plot devices for entertainment.

[mesmerizedish]

TJPags wrote...

Totally agree with the TC and the OP.

Using horrific history as the basis for plotlines in a video game is NOT a good idea.

The holocaust, 9/11 are not plot devices for entertainment.

I think that view is a little extreme. I'm Jewish, my grandfather fought in WWII... bad **** has happened throughout history. Christ's crucifixion* was used as the basis for Andraste's death. It's no big deal to use the "Final Solution" as a basis for some extremist templar's plan to end the mages. It's only that calling it the "Tranquil Solution" is a bit lame.




*totally my fault. my bad

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 19 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[TJPags]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Totally agree with the TC and the OP.

Using horrific history as the basis for plotlines in a video game is NOT a good idea.

The holocaust, 9/11 are not plot devices for entertainment.

I think that view is a little extreme. I'm Jewish, my grandfather fought in WWII... bad **** has happened throughout history. Christ's crucifixion* was used as the basis for Andraste's death. It's no big deal to use the "Final Solution" as a basis for some extremist templar's plan to end the mages. It's only that calling it the "Tranquil Solution" is a bit lame.




*totally my fault. my bad

Well, there are some differences, although I don't really want to delve into them on this board, between the Holocaust and the crucifixion.  However, significantly, one is religious doctrine, the other is historical fact.

Again, don't want to debate that aspect of it - but it seems a number of people are seeing these comparisons (the final solutiion, 9/11) and while we certainly don't know if that was the inspiration, I personally think it's in poor taste.  Which is strictly my personal opinion, and not intended to be a statement of fact or any type of attack.

[MPSai]

TJPags wrote...

Totally agree with the TC and the OP.

Using horrific history as the basis for plotlines in a video game is NOT a good idea.

The holocaust, 9/11 are not plot devices for entertainment.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I find it offensive because it's a sensitive subject I just think it's lazy writing. 

[TJPags]

MPSai wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Totally agree with the TC and the OP.

Using horrific history as the basis for plotlines in a video game is NOT a good idea.

The holocaust, 9/11 are not plot devices for entertainment.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I find it offensive because it's a sensitive subject I just think it's lazy writing. 

I'm not offended, either.  A little shocked, actually, and also think it was lazy.  Basically, as I said, I just think these are not good things to use as plot devices for what should be entertainment.

[MPSai]

TJPags wrote...

MPSai wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Totally agree with the TC and the OP.

Using horrific history as the basis for plotlines in a video game is NOT a good idea.

The holocaust, 9/11 are not plot devices for entertainment.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I find it offensive because it's a sensitive subject I just think it's lazy writing. 

I'm not offended, either.  A little shocked, actually, and also think it was lazy.  Basically, as I said, I just think these are not good things to use as plot devices for what should be entertainment.

Well see now that could be taken as video games can't or should never explore ideological, political or philosphical issues. Taking cues from history when developing fictional politics or moral issues is fine and dandy, but it's just so unsubtle in this case. Not to mention drawing comparisons to hilter/holocaust/whatever is so overdone it's become one of those writing cliche no-nos. 

Modifié par MPSai, 19 mars 2011 - 07:39 .