125 réponses à ce sujet

[Helen0rz]

Sordel wrote...

If you're at the force field, you're already trying to do a quest at the behest of Flemeth, so it's a bit late to grow a conscience. On my "noble Templar" run I resolutely refused Flemeth's help (to no effect) so I could have avoided Merrill completely but for the fact that the quest is part of the main quest and cannot be skipped.

Sure, you can complain about this stuff as a role-player, but there are other quests with so many solutions (e.g. Act of Mercy and Night Terrors) that it seems churlish to complain about the quests that are linear. Merrill isn't even a party member for Long Way Home, so what would be the point of giving you an opportunity to get a +15 Rivalry gain the first time you meet her? There's plenty of time to annoy her later ...

Question: how did you get out without Flemeth's help? without Flemeth's help, how did you meet Merrill?

[Sordel]

I've no idea how I escaped to Kirkwall, but I turned Flemeth down on every speech option. She's pretty big in dragon form ... I guess she just carried my party off and hung the amulet around my neck or something ... funny, that ...

[Steve Nicks]

_purifico_ wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Good point there. Replaying the game as a pro-Chantry person, I too thought it was curious I couldn't threaten Anders or Merrill over their use of magic and refusal to submit to the Circle.

You could kill Zevran in the first game when you met him.

Yeah, and where is that choice (to kill Zevran) now? In the dumpster! No matter what you do he's still alive and kicking in DA2. So even if you could kill Merril for being a dumb bimbo that she is, she'd probably still be alive in DA3. God, I miss Mass Effect... At least there dead people stay dead.

At least you were able to get that quest to activate, I just get a guy standing outside the Blooming Rose that I cannot interact with, tried 4 play throughs now, Zevran was alive in my imports, but no quest with Zevran in DA2....... sucks , I hope they fix the import glitches , NO strike that, I hope they fix all the game breaking glitches soon..,.,..

[Yrkoon]

StingingVelvet wrote...

DA2 disappointed me in the area of choice and playing a character the way I want to, as in him/her having a personality and my decisions in the game being based on that personality.  I think the Merril introduction is a great example why.

Merril wants to open a magic door and so she uses blood magic to summon a demon to do so.  Now, her personal beliefs aside this is a pretty ****g HUGE deal in the world of Dragon Age.  A pro-chantry templar sort of player should want to kill her outright, or at least subdue her.  An Anders-like mage supporter who views evil mages as the reason all mages are hated and feared should certainly want to stop her or leave her or something.  Blood mages are found throughout the game are are always treated as evil characters to be stopped, abominations waiting to happen.

So... what are your potential responses to Merril?

"No problem" or "hey you're naughty but let's keep going."

Is it just me or is that lazy design? 

Eh, it's not lazy design.  It's Bioware assuming we're  smart enough  to  not bother with the  mindless "you Blood Mage.  me must Kill you!" option, so they left it out.

Keep in mind that Merril is acting on orders from FLEMETH.    And hawke knows this.  Do  you want to roleplay your way to a really dumb decision that  ends your character's   adventure before it begins?  Because thats  logically what would happen  if you killed Merril before she completes the Ritual.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[Yrkoon]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

You needed her for the ritual.

Killing someone at the slightest display of doing something dangerous or looked down upon is just as unrealistic.

And Merrill is not evil. Blood magic does not make you evil.

Again, templars kill blood mages on sight.  Also, the barrier to Flemmeth is down after she does blood magic, you don't need her anymore.

Of course you need her after she takes down the Barrier.  She has to do the ritual  at the Altar to summon flemeth.

What you mean to say is that after the femeth ordeal, you no longer need Merril.  Well?  you don't have to use her at all after this point. 

As for the argument of:   'But I'm roleplaying a Templar and templars kill bloodmages on sight", just remember one thing:  You're Role Playing a Fereldan Refugee who's grown up with magic in his/her family.  You can pretend you're a  just tried and true Templar, but it's  completely unbelievable, from a role-playing standpoint, to do so.  Where did you get your templar training?    Do you take Lyrium doses to maintain your skills?  And do you also follow Cullen's and Merideth's orders to a T in Dragon Age 2?    Because if you answered 'no' or "i don't know" to any of these questions, then you've already veered from your own role-playing, and letting Merril live to do the ritual is hardly the worst violation of your Templar vows at this point.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 mars 2011 - 11:21 .

[Helen0rz]

Sordel wrote...

I've no idea how I escaped to Kirkwall, but I turned Flemeth down on every speech option. She's pretty big in dragon form ... I guess she just carried my party off and hung the amulet around my neck or something ... funny, that ...

that's weird...so basically that entire scene is pointless because no matter what you say you'll agree by default then?

Steve Nicks wrote...
At least you were able to get that quest to activate, I just get a guy standing outside the Blooming Rose that I cannot interact with, tried 4 play throughs now, Zevran was alive in my imports, but no quest with Zevran in DA2....... sucks , I hope they fix the import glitches , NO strike that, I hope they fix all the game breaking glitches soon..,.,..

Sheperd came back 

well fine, it was a part of the plot Kaiden/Ashley didn't but I just have to say something for the heck of it:D

[nicethugbert]

The DA2 story is about navigating throught fanaticism and chaos, not becoming one of the fanatics.  It's not about choosing one out of two simple polar opposites . It's also about treating people according to what they do when they do it according to the circumstances vs. treating people for violating blind rigid idealogy by simply existing or thinking/feeling contrary to idealogy.  DA2 is about uncomfortable decisions. Or, were we not listening to the Senechal when he describes the Qunari and the Tal-Vasoth or the Saarebas just before he self immolates? Flemeth also says something about choice when she rescues you at the start of the first act, which was in the demo.

So, DA2 may not be the game for you, but, it was built for a purpose. People need to understand that DA2 is not DA:O and was not meant to be. It is a separate game using the same overall lore and set in the same time line. You have to play it for what it is or play something else. None of this should come as a surprise because it was all in the demo.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 20 mars 2011 - 11:51 .

[Rizaun]

Flemeth asked Hawke to deliver the amulet to Keeper Marethari and do whatever she asked him/her to do, and after that they would be even. Marethari asked Hawke to take Merrill to perform the ritual and then take her with him/her, so Hawke had to honor the bargain.

[nicethugbert]

The Qunnari say that everyone has the choice to live or die. Hawke could have chosen Flemeth's offer thereby living or reject Flemeth's offer thereby dying.  So, in that sense it is about chosing between two simple opposites.  But even those simple choices are full of messy complications that follow in the wake of the simple choice.  The NPCs keep trying to force Hawke to chose one out of two sides.  But, no matter what side Hawke chooses, messy complications arise.  What was that Flemeth said on Sundermount about the coming abyss?  What did she say when she rescued Hawke about Destiny and Chance?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 21 mars 2011 - 03:28 .

[Valus]

StingingVelvet wrote...

DA2 disappointed me in the area of choice and playing a character the way I want to, as in him/her having a personality and my decisions in the game being based on that personality.  I think the Merril introduction is a great example why.

Merril wants to open a magic door and so she uses blood magic to summon a demon to do so.  Now, her personal beliefs aside this is a pretty ****g HUGE deal in the world of Dragon Age.  A pro-chantry templar sort of player should want to kill her outright, or at least subdue her.  An Anders-like mage supporter who views evil mages as the reason all mages are hated and feared should certainly want to stop her or leave her or something.  Blood mages are found throughout the game are are always treated as evil characters to be stopped, abominations waiting to happen.

So... what are your potential responses to Merril?

"No problem" or "hey you're naughty but let's keep going."

Is it just me or is that lazy design?  In Dragon Age: Origins you could roleplay that scene a lot better, either leaving her or killing her or something.  In DA2 the whole game feels much more on rails and there is nothing I can do there but shrug my shoulders and move on.  For someone roleplaying a templar or something it must be absolutely infuriating.

I felt like there were moments like this all through the game, though this one is a great and easy to understand example.  Thoughts?

I felt the same way when I got to this point. Was looking for the red crossed-swords icon to keep popping up in my dialog. Sadly it did not.

I think this problem stems from the situation we are in with Leliana and Anders right now. They were characters we could really alter the history of in the original games. Or we could just outright kill them. Now we are seeing these guys come back in a canonized form and noone likes to see that in a game like this. So, we get our choices mutilated to make it easier on the storytellers in future content.

Just a theory though.

[Alyka]

It's funny how Merrill goes from being matter-of-fact:
DA:O Merrill

to

Nervous and giddy:

DA2 Merrill (at 7:00)

It throws me off.

[Phantom.Brave10]

I knew what'd happen with the clan if you said yes, so I tried saying no. I said no to help her, I said no to giving her the dagger. But I still ended up with the quest to help her at the cave.
I wanted to banish Merrill outright.

[Alyka]

Maybe the reason why you can't kill Merrill is because it might start a war with her clan and humans? Then again, you wind up taking them out anyways.I'm a bit baffled.

Sometimes I think "Some of this don't make sense.Maybe Varric is embellishing a bit or he might not remember exactly how it went so he makes it up as he goes?" I don't dislike the game.It's just that I think they needed more time to develop.It seems a bit rushed in some places.

[StingingVelvet]

Yrkoon wrote...

As for the argument of:   'But I'm roleplaying a Templar and templars kill bloodmages on sight", just remember one thing:  You're Role Playing a Fereldan Refugee who's grown up with magic in his/her family.  You can pretend you're a  just tried and true Templar, but it's  completely unbelievable, from a role-playing standpoint, to do so.

I know, and that is what I have a problem with.  In DA:O I could be whoever I wanted.

[Varus Praetor]

I thought it was pretty obvious that "choice" in DA2 is only mildly for flavor and has no real impact on anything in the game. I can't think of a single decision that made a major difference aside from the few that resulted in losing access to a companion character. Perhaps taking the sibling to the Deep Roads. That's about it. Even going pro-Templar or pro-Mage doesn't change the outcome in DA2. The argument can be made that the difference will be in DA3, but that's pretty weak. All in all, I think DA2 reeks of laziness by BW and it's a testament to their skill that it's as good as it is. Even their half-assed games are better than 80% of the competition.

[Emperor Iaius I]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

As for the argument of:   'But I'm roleplaying a Templar and templars kill bloodmages on sight", just remember one thing:  You're Role Playing a Fereldan Refugee who's grown up with magic in his/her family.  You can pretend you're a  just tried and true Templar, but it's  completely unbelievable, from a role-playing standpoint, to do so.

I know, and that is what I have a problem with.  In DA:O I could be whoever I wanted.

Then maybe it's not for you? DA:O was called Origins for a reason. They wanted to make a game with that sort of freedom, and the silent protagonist helped that. DA2 is not simply an expansion to or a remake of DA:O. It's a different sort of game in the same universe.

You have a problem with the story? Well, ok, you don't have to like it but the story is what it is. I'm sorry that the game didn't let you murder your sister on sight for being an apostate, but it's clear that DA2 was supposed to be Hawke's story and it's clear that it's building to something for a subsequent game: certain things have to happen.

All that aside, it still baffles me how many people reflexibly hate blood magic.

[_purifico_]

LobselVith8 wrote...

_purifico_ wrote...

Yeah, and where is that choice (to kill Zevran) now? In the dumpster! No matter what you do he's still alive and kicking in DA2. So even if you could kill Merril for being a dumb bimbo that she is, she'd probably still be alive in DA3. God, I miss Mass Effect... At least there dead people stay dead.

Why is Merrill a "dumb bimbo"? I never got that impression from her in DA2. Merrill''s willing to leave behind everyone and everything that she knows for a culture she's completely unfamiliar with, in the attempt to restore a piece of her people's history. Despite everything that it's costing her, she never waivers. She knows the risks that are involved, and she's willing to gamble her life on the slim chance that restoring the Eluvian and dealing with the demon will give her people back a piece of their lost culture, even though there's a high chance that it'll end in failure.

Merril is not a dumb bibmo because she messes around with demons and blood magic (although I find it hard to believe that anyone smart enough would voluntarily make a pact with a demon just for a chance to hear some fancy stories - but that's just me). I've never said that. In fact, I think that she is an overall very interesting, very well written character (except one part that I will explain further). There is enough conflict in Merril to keep me interested in her story and future fate.

She's a dumb bimbo because she acts like one. I realise that the writers tried to make her look adorable and make the player go "aawwweee - that's sweet" every time she opened her mouth. But I find that they went over the top with it, so she ended up being not adorable, but simply very annoying and even worst - unbelievable. Yes, I DO realise, that she spend her whole life in a forest so she's not very familiar with human/city elf traditions and way of life. Yet, you have to be a total retard not to recognize a mugging when you see one, let alone ASSUME that it's an alienage tradition. For Gods sake, those Dalish elves never ever shut up about how they were wronged and how city elves have to endure the hardships of life in the slums and human contempt. I'm more then sure that she had heard stories about life in the city. She even knows Duncan! I'm sure that being the chipper little thing that she is, she talked to him about human traditions (esecially considering that the whole "tradition" thing is her weak spot).

Her remarks stopped being funny and became annoying after like 15 minutes. I love Merril. I just love her more when she doesn't talk.

Modifié par _purifico_, 21 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[Noatz]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

As for the argument of:   'But I'm roleplaying a Templar and templars kill bloodmages on sight", just remember one thing:  You're Role Playing a Fereldan Refugee who's grown up with magic in his/her family.  You can pretend you're a  just tried and true Templar, but it's  completely unbelievable, from a role-playing standpoint, to do so.

I know, and that is what I have a problem with.  In DA:O I could be whoever I wanted.

You mean, you can be something other than a Grey Warden in Origins? How interesting, I'll go try that playthrough now.

Look, both games enforce some events on you so that they can actually tell a story. This happens even in Elder Scrolls games (the choosiest of the choosy rpgs). Shock horror, you will always get corprus disease in Morrowind and you will always be the reincanation of that guy, wtf why can't I be whoever I want yo.

Your argument when confronted by this brick wall of fact is to say you felt Origins somehow presented a better illusion of choice... which feels more like you just played DA2 and went "omg no choice I can't slay someone outright" forgetting the exact same applies to Origins as you haven't played it for some time. A better argument you could have used would be when you choose to disown Merrill after she arrives in Kirkwall she will still help you later (this genuinely feels wrong - like bugged wrong). And before you say "but I can choose to kill Zevran outright in Origins...", allow me to point out that he tries to assassinate you, something none of the companions in DA2 ever do.

Ultimately the choice is still there, if you want to play a templar you can side with them. What you're asking to be able to do are stupid actions that no-one sane would contemplate.

Modifié par Noatz, 21 mars 2011 - 05:31 .

[StingingVelvet]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

As for the argument of:   'But I'm roleplaying a Templar and templars kill bloodmages on sight", just remember one thing:  You're Role Playing a Fereldan Refugee who's grown up with magic in his/her family.  You can pretend you're a  just tried and true Templar, but it's  completely unbelievable, from a role-playing standpoint, to do so.

I know, and that is what I have a problem with.  In DA:O I could be whoever I wanted.

Then maybe it's not for you? DA:O was called Origins for a reason. They wanted to make a game with that sort of freedom, and the silent protagonist helped that. DA2 is not simply an expansion to or a remake of DA:O. It's a different sort of game in the same universe.

You have a problem with the story? Well, ok, you don't have to like it but the story is what it is. I'm sorry that the game didn't let you murder your sister on sight for being an apostate, but it's clear that DA2 was supposed to be Hawke's story and it's clear that it's building to something for a subsequent game: certain things have to happen.

All that aside, it still baffles me how many people reflexibly hate blood magic.

Yeah, that's what I just said.  I prefer roleplaying games that actually let you play a role you create, not a pre-defined character.  I'm not saying the game is crap because of it, I am saying it is not as good because of it.

As for hating blood magic if I am playing a pro-chantry character I hate blood magic and kill blood mages on sight because that is the law and the teachings.  My first playthrough was a mage-friendly sort, my second playthrough I wanted to be something different.

[StingingVelvet]

Noatz wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

As for the argument of:   'But I'm roleplaying a Templar and templars kill bloodmages on sight", just remember one thing:  You're Role Playing a Fereldan Refugee who's grown up with magic in his/her family.  You can pretend you're a  just tried and true Templar, but it's  completely unbelievable, from a role-playing standpoint, to do so.

I know, and that is what I have a problem with.  In DA:O I could be whoever I wanted.

You mean, you can be something other than a Grey Warden in Origins? How interesting, I'll go try that playthrough now.

Look, both games enforce some events on you so that they can actually tell a story. This happens even in Elder Scrolls games (the choosiest of the choosy rpgs). Shock horror, you will always get corprus disease in Morrowind and you will always be the reincanation of that guy, wtf why can't I be whoever I want yo.

Your argument when confronted by this brick wall of fact is to say you felt Origins somehow presented a better illusion of choice... which feels more like you just played DA2 and went "omg no choice I can't slay someone outright" forgetting the exact same applies to Origins as you haven't played it for some time. A better argument you could have used would be when you choose to disown Merrill after she arrives in Kirkwall she will still help you later (this genuinely feels wrong - like bugged wrong). And before you say "but I can choose to kill Zevran outright in Origins...", allow me to point out that he tries to assassinate you, something none of the companions in DA2 ever do.

Ultimately the choice is still there, if you want to play a templar you can side with them. What you're asking to be able to do are stupid actions that no-one sane would contemplate.

You could be any kind of warden you wanted to be, that would be the parallel.  I don't mind being the "champion of kirkwall," I mind that there is one route to get there (even the endings play out exactly the same with minor dialogue differences).

Look, there are games which offer what I am talking about.  Fallout: New Vegas for instance, you can choose completely who to be and who to work for and the game changes dramatically based on that.  Gothic, Risen and similar games offer you a lot of choice and freedom as well.  THAT SAID, I know Bioware games are not that open.  I have said that countless times in this thread but people keep bringing it up.  I KNOW.  My point is that Origins offered a lot more freedom and a lot greater sense that my decisions were coming from my roleplaying and not from a pre-defined story, even if often they were.

[Taleroth]

Filament wrote...

Was my game bugged or something? I saw that all of the dialog made references as if she had summoned a demon, but I never saw a demon actually being summoned... I just saw her dispel the barrier with blood magic.

That's what I got, too.  It annoyed me that I never saw anything to differentiate it between a spirit or demon, but Anders and Hawke act like it was most certainly a demon.

Modifié par Taleroth, 21 mars 2011 - 05:38 .

[LobselVith8]

_purifico_ wrote...

Merril is not a dumb bibmo because she messes around with demons and blood magic (although I find it hard to believe that anyone smart enough would voluntarily make a pact with a demon just for a chance to hear some fancy stories - but that's just me).

First, she used blood magic to cleanse the shard of the Eluvian she had. Second, there are blood mages who are also Grey Wardens, because it's a powerful alternative when you don't have enough lyrium to perform the same accomplishments that you can using blood instead of mana.

_purifico_ wrote...

She's a dumb bimbo because she acts like one.

I never thought she was dumb. Merrill's new to everything that people like Hawke and Aveline take for granted. I thought she acted like a person who was raised in a Dalish culture and had no real understanding of what it was like to live in a city or deal with the myraid of complexities that living in a melting pot like Kirkwall would entail.

_purifico_ wrote...

I realise that the writers tried to make her look adorable and make the player go "aawwweee - that's sweet" every time she opened her mouth. But I find that they went over the top with it, so she ended up being not adorable, but simply very annoying and even worst - unbelievable. Yes, I DO realise, that she spend her whole life in a forest so she's not very familiar with human/city elf traditions and way of life. Yet, you have to be a total retard not to recognize a mugging when you see one, let alone ASSUME that it's an alienage tradition.

If the Dalish culture doesn't have muggings, why would she recognize a mugging? If she has no basis from her own background to understand what she saw, why should she recognize it simply because you understand what it is from being taught what it is?

_purifico_ wrote...

For Gods sake, those Dalish elves never ever shut up about how they were wronged and how city elves have to endure the hardships of life in the slums and human contempt. I'm more then sure that she had heard stories about life in the city. She even knows Duncan! I'm sure that being the chipper little thing that she is, she talked to him about human traditions (esecially considering that the whole "tradition" thing is her weak spot).

From what we know, she likely met Duncan when two of her clansmates were killed because of a corrupted Eluvian, so why is she going to discuss the complexities of human culture after losing two people she's known most of her life? Even Lanaya, when the Warden discusses what a city is like, has trouble grasping the concept because it's completely alien to her. Why should Merrill be any different?

[sevalaricgirl]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I thought it was pretty ****** poor design to have mages under lock and key but if you play one no one seems to care.

This absolutely.  The only time I have ever been questioned is when I disagreed with Meredith.  She says I know what you are, I saw you use magic, apostate or something of the sort.  One time in the game.  No one even seems to know that my Hawke is walking around with a tevinter mage head piece.