125 réponses à ce sujet

[KirinDave]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Noatz wrote...

With its comparitively clunky combat and inventory systems you can't really say this with any credibility.

Well that's your opinion I guess, but I prefer both of those in DAO compared to DA2 overall.

As for the Merril introduction, I kind of agree that your options are restricted here which may leave players trying to play some zealous anti mage nut (though this doesn't make a huge amount of sense given Hawke's background) out in the cold.

Firstly I don't want to play Hawke's background, I want to roleplay a character.

DA2 is clearly not the game you want for that. You want Dungeons & Dragons, down the hall. You're welcome to come to my game table any time.

Seriously though, DA2 isn't pretending to be that kind of game. Even the format of DA2 was a clear departure from DAO: this is a narrative of a character and not a raw roleplay. It's a choose-your-own-permutation-of-Hawke. I don't think the DA2 team is wrong for making this decision—it certainly shortens development time and let them really establish the world. I'd prefer to go back to DA:O's style, but there are serious advantages to DA2's format. 

Modifié par KirinDave, 21 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[Parrk]

Many of these "this isn't as good" threads seem based purely on the author's expectations without regard to anything ever published by Bioware.

At some point in the past, some company, perhaps Bioware, released some product that you think was the best thing ever created. This product does not meet all of the criteria I have developed as a result of my love affair with that rpg from 12 years ago, and let me spend 3,000 words telling you why.

I think this is a pov issue. This is a good game that excels at quite a few things. Whether you find that to be acceptable though, depends on whether you can judge it based on its merits alone, or feel it best to compare it to your favorite game of all time.

It is likely that your insistence that all games conform to your vision of optimal horribly cripples your ability to enjoy new games for what they are and what they do well. This leads to an overwhelmingly negative gaming experience, which is pretty self-defeating.

I love Cinnamon Life the very most of all cereals. When faced with a box of Cinnamon Toast Crunch, I am able to enjoy the additional sugar and cinnamon, because those things are tasty. What would I gain by complaining that the CTC was not CL? I suspect that I would achieve little more than ruining my own breakfast.

[Noatz]

StingingVelvet wrote...

You could be any kind of warden you wanted to be, that would be the parallel.  I don't mind being the "champion of kirkwall," I mind that there is one route to get there (even the endings play out exactly the same with minor dialogue differences).

Look, there are games which offer what I am talking about.  Fallout: New Vegas for instance, you can choose completely who to be and who to work for and the game changes dramatically based on that.  Gothic, Risen and similar games offer you a lot of choice and freedom as well.  THAT SAID, I know Bioware games are not that open.  I have said that countless times in this thread but people keep bringing it up.  I KNOW.  My point is that Origins offered a lot more freedom and a lot greater sense that my decisions were coming from my roleplaying and not from a pre-defined story, even if often they were.

It keeps getting brought up because you have used a poor example to try and argue your point and still refuse to recognise it. You want to do something ridiculous in DA2 and there is no option for it, whereas effectively the same act in Origins yields the same lack of choice.

[Emperor Iaius I]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I thought it was pretty ****** poor design to have mages under lock and key but if you play one no one seems to care.

This absolutely.  The only time I have ever been questioned is when I disagreed with Meredith.  She says I know what you are, I saw you use magic, apostate or something of the sort.  One time in the game.  No one even seems to know that my Hawke is walking around with a tevinter mage head piece.

Er, what? It comes up all the time. One of the things I liked about this game is how often people notice I'm an apostate.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 21 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[StingingVelvet]

Noatz wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

You could be any kind of warden you wanted to be, that would be the parallel.  I don't mind being the "champion of kirkwall," I mind that there is one route to get there (even the endings play out exactly the same with minor dialogue differences).

Look, there are games which offer what I am talking about.  Fallout: New Vegas for instance, you can choose completely who to be and who to work for and the game changes dramatically based on that.  Gothic, Risen and similar games offer you a lot of choice and freedom as well.  THAT SAID, I know Bioware games are not that open.  I have said that countless times in this thread but people keep bringing it up.  I KNOW.  My point is that Origins offered a lot more freedom and a lot greater sense that my decisions were coming from my roleplaying and not from a pre-defined story, even if often they were.

It keeps getting brought up because you have used a poor example to try and argue your point and still refuse to recognise it. You want to do something ridiculous in DA2 and there is no option for it, whereas effectively the same act in Origins yields the same lack of choice.

If its so ridiculous to kill a blood mage then one wonders why you do it like 100 times throughout the game.

[Blacklash93]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

You needed her for the ritual.

Killing someone at the slightest display of doing something dangerous or looked down upon is just as unrealistic.

And Merrill is not evil. Blood magic does not make you evil.

Again, templars kill blood mages on sight.  Also, the barrier to Flemmeth is down after she does blood magic, you don't need her anymore.

Yes you do need her. She was the only one who knew how to bring Flemeth out of the amulet. You don't simply lay it on the shrine, that would make no sense.

And you are not a Templar if you pick the spec. You only have the Templar abilities and skills. Same as Origins.

[Blacklash93]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

As for the argument of:   'But I'm roleplaying a Templar and templars kill bloodmages on sight", just remember one thing:  You're Role Playing a Fereldan Refugee who's grown up with magic in his/her family.  You can pretend you're a  just tried and true Templar, but it's  completely unbelievable, from a role-playing standpoint, to do so.

I know, and that is what I have a problem with.  In DA:O I could be whoever I wanted.

Unfortunately, Hawke has to be logical and believable in some situations.

I won't deny thre are less options in DA2, but this particular situation you're bringing up is rather trivial.

Name me one blood mage whose story ends up good in DA?

Merrill might be the first and that story didn't end so well either, it could have ended up worse than simply wiping out a village. She could have ended up liek Anders and started  a war.

Blood Magic didn't put her in that mess. It was her dealing with that demon and trusting it too much. If she wasn't trying to rebuild the eluvian, none of it would have happened.

And my blood mage Warden ended up pretty well at the end of Origins, btw. He was a paragon of kindness!

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 mars 2011 - 02:44 .

[Pandaman102]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Yes you do need her. She was the only one who knew how to bring Flemeth out of the amulet. You don't simply lay it on the shrine, that would make no sense.

And you are not a Templar if you pick the spec. You only have the Templar abilities and skills. Same as Origins.

Then you don't need her after she releases Flemeth Clone. You don't find it strange that you can play a staunchly anti-blood mage character who only gets to chastise Merrill a little bit and doesn't bother inquiring the specific dangers of the mirror being rebuilt? Like, oh, how it would release a power pride demon that she failed to mention until the last few minutes of her life?

[Blacklash93]

Merrill had no idea the demon could use the mirror. She didn't know what would happen if she reactivated it. She was too innocent to consider that the demon might be using her or was capable of doing so while sealed in stone.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 22 mars 2011 - 02:52 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

So says Marethari, the abomination. The abomination who "saved" her? This is the same abomination who stabs Merrill with a knife.

Why on earth would anybody believe somebody possessed with a pride demon about anything?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 22 mars 2011 - 02:51 .

[Pandaman102]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Merrill had no idea the demon could use the mirror. She didn't know what would happen if she reactivated it. She was too innocent to think the demon was using her or was capable of so.

I meant asking the Keeper, who apparently knew for the whole seven years she tied the clan to the land to keep an eye on Merrill.

Edit: Oh, and I apologize, after going through my previous post I realized I somehow omitted referring to the Keeper the first time around.

Modifié par Pandaman102, 22 mars 2011 - 02:53 .

[wyandell26]

Piwowarski84 wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

There were some things lacking in DA 2, but overall, I'm satisfied; it feels like now that they have the mechanics worked out, they can focus more on the story/choices.

I don't think that's really an excuse since the previous game in the series got both right already.

True but the previous game was developed for much longer.

well then they should have developed for times longer so that I would have gotten what I paid for

[StingingVelvet]

All the talk of blood mages aside the point is that the Merril introduction perfectly shows why you are Hawke in this game, not a player-defined character. Your choices are limited to what fits the Hawke character and even those choices are relatively meaningless. That is the point of the thread.

Everyone arguing that Hawke would not kill Merril for blood magic (even though you kill a ton of other people for using blood magic throughout the game) are missing the point. I don't care what Hawke wants to do, I care what I as a player want to do. Western RPGs and CRPGs are supposed to be about playing a role you define. Bioware have always veered closer to the JRPG standard of watching a story, but DA2 is by far their furthest step away from Western RPG convention. And it bum me out.

[ms_sunlight]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

This absolutely.  The only time I have ever been questioned is when I disagreed with Meredith.  She says I know what you are, I saw you use magic, apostate or something of the sort.  One time in the game.  No one even seems to know that my Hawke is walking around with a tevinter mage head piece.

Lots of NPCs wear hoods.  Maybe everyone just thought it an eccentric fashion choice.

[AlexXIV]

I don't think I ever - in DA:O, DA:A or DA2 - killed an NPC because he/she was a bloodmage. Just bloodmages tent to call on demons and attack my hero, in which case she defends. I always tried my best to save Jowan and I left Avernus to his studies. I also don't kill the apostitute in the kirkwall brothel who tries to slice Hawke's throat. Actually in these games I am forced to kill so many people that I always try to  find ways to solve quests without killing. Only exceptions are slavers. I don't like slavers, they must all die.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 02:57 .

[Noatz]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Noatz wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

You could be any kind of warden you wanted to be, that would be the parallel.  I don't mind being the "champion of kirkwall," I mind that there is one route to get there (even the endings play out exactly the same with minor dialogue differences).

Look, there are games which offer what I am talking about.  Fallout: New Vegas for instance, you can choose completely who to be and who to work for and the game changes dramatically based on that.  Gothic, Risen and similar games offer you a lot of choice and freedom as well.  THAT SAID, I know Bioware games are not that open.  I have said that countless times in this thread but people keep bringing it up.  I KNOW.  My point is that Origins offered a lot more freedom and a lot greater sense that my decisions were coming from my roleplaying and not from a pre-defined story, even if often they were.

It keeps getting brought up because you have used a poor example to try and argue your point and still refuse to recognise it. You want to do something ridiculous in DA2 and there is no option for it, whereas effectively the same act in Origins yields the same lack of choice.

If its so ridiculous to kill a blood mage then one wonders why you do it like 100 times throughout the game.

It is ridiculous when you need her to complete the bargain you have with the dragon-witch who saved your life.

[StingingVelvet]

Noatz wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

Noatz wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

You could be any kind of warden you wanted to be, that would be the parallel.  I don't mind being the "champion of kirkwall," I mind that there is one route to get there (even the endings play out exactly the same with minor dialogue differences).

Look, there are games which offer what I am talking about.  Fallout: New Vegas for instance, you can choose completely who to be and who to work for and the game changes dramatically based on that.  Gothic, Risen and similar games offer you a lot of choice and freedom as well.  THAT SAID, I know Bioware games are not that open.  I have said that countless times in this thread but people keep bringing it up.  I KNOW.  My point is that Origins offered a lot more freedom and a lot greater sense that my decisions were coming from my roleplaying and not from a pre-defined story, even if often they were.

It keeps getting brought up because you have used a poor example to try and argue your point and still refuse to recognise it. You want to do something ridiculous in DA2 and there is no option for it, whereas effectively the same act in Origins yields the same lack of choice.

If its so ridiculous to kill a blood mage then one wonders why you do it like 100 times throughout the game.

It is ridiculous when you need her to complete the bargain you have with the dragon-witch who saved your life.

And 1 second after that?  Why do I escort her to the alienage and in fact help hide her if I believe she is dangerous and should be in the circle?

[Dussan2]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

I had to face palm for five minutes and then scream "WHAT THE **** AM I FIGHTING FOR?" to my monitor when Orsino turned to blood magic...

Now thinking of playing for the second time with a warrior Hawke makes me irc, I dont want to be stuck with Anders as healer again!

Same.

First playthrough was a mage pro mage.  Orsino going hog nuts was ridiculous.  Mage playthrough felt like playing through the dark side ending, and I felt like a naive fool.  Every mage I met that was being persecuted turned bat$#it crazy and became abominations.  Orsino standing up for mages was pure hypocrisy, Anders was a murderous zealot.  God, I even chose the nice guy route with Merrill after she killed her idiot Keeper and had to murder her whole clan.  Freakin nightmare. 

I mean I killed EVERY MAGE!  They where all freakin dead when my game was done.

Also you guys are forgetting something.  Blood Magic can only be LEARNED from demons.  As a Warden in Origins the circumstances of your gaining that knowledge was unique.  You learned it by sacrificing that idiot kid. 

Blood Mage = Demon Lover

Modifié par Dussan2, 22 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[LobselVith8]

Dussan2 wrote...

First playthrough was a mage pro mage.  Orsino going hog nuts was ridiculous.  Mage playthrough felt like playing through the dark side ending, and I felt like a naive fool. 

Preventing the genocide of mages shouldn't make you feel like a fool.

Dussan2 wrote...

Every mage I met that was being persecuted turned bat$#it crazy and became abominations.  Orsino standing up for mages was pure hypocrisy, Anders was a murderous zealot.  God, I even chose the nice guy route with Merrill after she killed her idiot Keeper and had to murder her whole clan.  Freakin nightmare. 

The clan won't try to kill you if you take responsibility, and it's not Merrill's fault the Keeper accepted the demon into her.

Dussan2 wrote...

I mean I killed EVERY MAGE!  They where all freakin dead when my game was done.

Varric mentions there were many survivors who left the Gallows to spread word about what happened at Kirkwall.

Dussan2 wrote...

Also you guys are forgetting something.  Blood Magic can only be LEARNED from demons.  As a Warden in Origins the circumstances of your gaining that knowledge was unique.  You learned it by sacrificing that idiot kid. 

Blood Mage = Demon Lover

That's not accurate. You can intimidate the Desire Demon to learn blood magic. You can learn blood magic from books in Awakening, as Jowan did in Origins. I don't see anything indicating Hawke made a deal with a demon to learn blood magic, either.

[Kyosukedei]

Lets be a little more logical, most if not all the blood mages you end up killing, are blood mages who has basically GONE OVER THE EDGE.

Also I don't know what you mean by less choices. Okay game OVERALL there are less than DAO, but 2 year game built on foundations of a 7 year game will only get you SO MUCH. But it is definitly 10x more than 95% of the game that have been released and will be released the rest of the decade, excluding MMO's.

The beginning point about Merril is full of crap. DiD you try to a **** to her? You can stop her from using blood magic, kick her out of your group (someone said kill her, not sure if that's true) and so forth. Your not FORCED to be nice. You still have the main core choices which a MORE than I can say for games like Two Worlds 2, or Gothic 4. Just because there is less sub choices for the core choices like DAO, doesn't mean there is less work involved.

That all said, I my.self wish there was a more open world, and longer gameplay in terms of story arch or even side story.The only thing I didn't like was that you never really had enough money for a lot of the nice gear.

[Dussan2]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dussan2 wrote...

Every mage I met that was being persecuted turned bat$#it crazy and became abominations.  Orsino standing up for mages was pure hypocrisy, Anders was a murderous zealot.  God, I even chose the nice guy route with Merrill after she killed her idiot Keeper and had to murder her whole clan.  Freakin nightmare. 

The clan won't try to kill you if you take responsibility, and it's not Merrill's fault the Keeper accepted the demon into her.

Dussan2 wrote...

I mean I killed EVERY MAGE!  They where all freakin dead when my game was done.

Varric mentions there were many survivors who left the Gallows to spread word about what happened at Kirkwall.

Dussan2 wrote...

Also you guys are forgetting something.  Blood Magic can only be LEARNED from demons.  As a Warden in Origins the circumstances of your gaining that knowledge was unique.  You learned it by sacrificing that idiot kid. 

Blood Mage = Demon Lover

That's not accurate. You can intimidate the Desire Demon to learn blood magic. You can learn blood magic from books in Awakening, as Jowan did in Origins. I don't see anything indicating Hawke made a deal with a demon to learn blood magic, either.

I'm talking lore wise when I mention the blood magic.  Lore wise it's from demons.  Its powerful but it opens the door.

And the clan, their response to me trying to explain what happened and they all committed mass suicide by attacking me!   They died badly, and I didn't even pause the game once as I murdered them, all auto attacks, and watcing Isabella and Aveline MDK their whole wortlhess culture.  

Fenris' betrayal!  That little clown.  I wish I Youtube'd his death.  Two sets of cross class combos on Hard difficulty murdered that fool in 4 seconds.  YOU DON'T STEP TO ME ELF!!  YOU ARE GARBAGE AND  I AM THE MAKERS HOLY SON!!!!!!  ROAR!!!!

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Preventing the genocide of mages shouldn't make you feel like a fool.

No but condemning the city to death should

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 23 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[LobselVith8]

Dussan2 wrote...

I'm talking lore wise when I mention the blood magic.  Lore wise it's from demons.  Its powerful but it opens the door.

Technically, there seems to be some dispute about whether it came from demons or the Old God Dumat.

And if you compare the Chantry controlled Circle to slavery, Fenris doesn't betray you when you side with the mages.

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Preventing the genocide of mages shouldn't make you feel like a fool.

No but condemning the city to death should

I didn't realize the senseless murder of hundreds or thousands of innocent men, women, and children was required to keep Kirkwall from being condemned.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I didn't realize the senseless murder of hundreds or thousands of innocent men, women, and children was required to keep Kirkwall from being condemned.

With Templar order established throughout the city, An exalted march being declared is unlikely and the people wont riot.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 23 mars 2011 - 05:04 .

[Baelyn]

Does anyone else not notice that within the first 30 minutes of the game (if you pick diplomatic respones) Hawke says several times "I guess we don't have much choice do we." Flemeth even extends this further to say "We never do." Simple foreshadowing of the theme of this game. Right out there in the open but people still seem to expect this game to be all about choice.

The whole point of this game was to show Hawke's attempts to lead a normal life and provide for his family but he is utterly always thrown into the middle of conflict. Hawke is not a Grey Warden...He is not the "Hero" of an entire nation. You cannot expect him to have the same impact as such. In DA:O you are playing as one of the last two surviving people of a historically epic order, and its entirely up to you to save Ferelden. DA2 = A very capable refugee exiled to a city that is just trying to fend for his family. How can you expect the same magnitude? How did you not see this coming?

This is another case of mistaken identity where people viewed their Hawke's in the same light as their Warden's. The two are entirely different. The Warden is a pivotal figure in Thedas because of his impact and ultimately saving Ferelden. The Champion is a pivotal figure out of necessity and circumstance. He is an extraordinary person that happened to be at the center of everything that was the inevitable ticking time bomb sitting in Kirkwall. He is important NOW because people don't trust the Chantry nor the Circle nor the Templars now, but they do trust the Champion.. This is why Cassandra is even looking for him in the first place.

You cannot expect Hawke (and the story they had in mind for him) to be able to make the enormous world shaking changes the Warden did (which is actual very debatable as to what "big" changes the Warden could make in DA:O)

TL;DR is from the get-go DA2 poised itself as a very different game (story) from Origins. And in my opinion is brilliant at what it does: Lets you play your "version" of Bioware's Hawke and experience how he was at the center of what will obviously be a huge cataclysm in the Dragon Age Universe and WHY he is important going forth.

Modifié par Baelyn, 23 mars 2011 - 06:19 .