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[StingingVelvet]

Specifically when Orsino turns to blood magic.

All through the game I bought into Anders' ideas that mages should be free.  All the way up until the very end of the game I was on board.  Then when Orsino turned to blood magic and became a disgusting demon I had to kill I took that as a momeny of epiphany.  If even the head of the circle, a wise and elder mage, could be tempted to turn to horrible blood magic then ANY mage could, which means they perhaps should be put in the circles and monitored.

Sadly the game did not let me roleplay this epiphany... Anders just makes a quick comment about Orsino being backed into a corner or something and then I go and have no choice but to go tell Meredith she's wrong and kill her.

Kind of seemed odd.  It seemed like that Orsino moment was put into the game to say "let's challenge your decisions," which is great, but then it offers you no chance to take that to heart and change your mind.

[Freeway911]

Really want a kick in the gut when it comes to Orsino play it through again and side with the Templars.

[The Big Nothing]

Orsino doesn't represent every mage; if you changed your mind, then you really didn't believe in mage freedom in the first place. Some mages are genuinely interested in blood magic, but 3/4 of the time we see blood magic being practiced, it is in direct response to templar pressure.

The way I felt was abandoned by the champion of the mages in Kirkwall. It's almost more poetic to go out on that depressing note, though, to fight for the subjugated and have the subjugated resort to terrible measures.

[LobselVith8]

StingingVelvet wrote...

Specifically when Orsino turns to blood magic.

So the actions of one man should condemn every man, woman, and child in Kirkwall who has magical ability?

I didn't waiver as an apostate Hawke in siding with the mages, because my decision had nothing to do with Orsino at all. I've wanted the emancipation of mages since the Hero of Ferelden (the Surana Warden) asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence in my canon run, and Queen Anora agreed (and I'm assuming her husband did, too, from what he says to Knight-Commander Meredith).

[Shacary]

I wanted to role play the thing and with the exception of my sibling, and Merrill [ who was a functioning blood mage, well wait she was almost an abomination too, that cost marethari and the entire clan their lives... ] the other mages all demonstrated they were nuts, or evil or already demons. I mean i allowed grace to live and she tells me proudly while im trying to defend the mages, how YES she was a blood mage and was glad to try and kill me . [ paraphrasing.]
I found it hard in the end to sympathize with any of the choices . Like Varric said, im tired of the mages and the templars... well I was just tired of the thing too, I wanted to kill them all, but i wasnt given that option. I mean the unreal thing is how they couldnt even sense gangs of evil mages roamign the streets attacking peeps?
really hard to grasp , when you are helping cullen and firing off flames everywhere. O no? me a mage? never! totally ridiculous and hard to believe. And the idea that any mage scared or whatever becomes and instanta abom was retarded. Why didnt wynne or Irving become aboms? what about every lil kid they whisked away from home as terrified as they were become one?
no this story thing missed its mark a bit. and i really really wanted the oppurtunity to kill them all, but i guess Kirkwell already had its pyschotic killer in dr. frankenstien wannabe.

[Shacary]

hehe i dont see an edit button sorry. But I did regret my choice in siding with the mages, I wished i could have changed sides cuz it seemed Fenris was right, they were all nuts!
I never did play it the other way thru tho, cuz i was left with bleh who cares at the end.

[jacksmedula1]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Orsino doesn't represent every mage; if you changed your mind, then you really didn't believe in mage freedom in the first place. Some mages are genuinely interested in blood magic, but 3/4 of the time we see blood magic being practiced, it is in direct response to templar pressure.

The way I felt was abandoned by the champion of the mages in Kirkwall. It's almost more poetic to go out on that depressing note, though, to fight for the subjugated and have the subjugated resort to terrible measures.

Let me guess... you're a liberal Democrat

[whitless256]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Orsino doesn't represent every mage; if you changed your mind, then you really didn't believe in mage freedom in the first place. Some mages are genuinely interested in blood magic, but 3/4 of the time we see blood magic being practiced, it is in direct response to templar pressure.

The way I felt was abandoned by the champion of the mages in Kirkwall. It's almost more poetic to go out on that depressing note, though, to fight for the subjugated and have the subjugated resort to terrible measures.

But Orsino did NOT turn to blood magic out of despiration in the last moments of a hopeless battle.  It's more clearly stated if you side with the Templars, but the evidence was there in the mage ending as well if you looked for it.  Orsino says "Quentin, you were right my friend." in the mage ending, then fully embraces blood magic.  As you recall, Quentin is the psycho necromancer blood mage who mutliated, tortured, and killed your mother... with research sanctioned by Orsino.  The note in Quentin's home is from the mysterious "O" and indicates that all the books used in Quentin's research came from "O," who was fascinated by and wanted to be kept apraised of Quentin's results.  Who do you think that "O" was?

Perhaps Orsino never put blood magic into practice until that moment, but he had studied it, and considered the man who killed your mother a "friend."  While I still would side with the mages and still support giving them freedom, in this case, in this Circle.... Meredith was RIGHT.

That's what makes this such an amazing game.  There is no black and white. Both sides were wrong.  Meredith was not just imagining things when she saw blood mages rising in power in the Circle.  The First Enchanter supported them... or at least protected them.  Irving would have wiped them out.   Now, the cirumstances that drove Orsino to side with and protect the blood mages were Meredith's fault, but it certainly paints everything in a new light.  Meredith was not so crazy as she may have seemed... at least until she got her hands on that idol.

But this is, at least in my opinion, obviously one of the reasons why blood magic is so rampent in Kirkwall.  A continuous spiral of, as Varric put it... the Templars squeezing, the mages fighting back, the Templars squeezing harder until everything spiraled out of control. 

This whole game was one big no win situation and I absolutely LOVE it.

[belwin]

jacksmedula1 wrote...

Let me guess... you're a liberal Democrat

i myself am a member of the voter apathy party.

back on topic:
i did find the ending kind of sad, power and subjugation led to the demise of all the powerful icons in the city really.
however, i still think the templar opression wasn't cool, so i don't feel my pro-mage attitude needed to change.

also, my hawke was a mage. xD

[earl of the north]

I did, especially when Orsino let slip that he had been aiding the blood mage serial killer in his research into blood magic/necromancy......basically while Meredith was a paranoid nutter and helped cause the crisis, she was right in the end. The Kirkwall circle was almost totally corrupted with blood magic/daemonic possession all the way up to the first enchanter himself.

How much was due to the Kirkwall circle being housed in the Gallows (bad idea given its bloody history)?

How much was due to Meredith's increasingly hardliner methods (then madness)?

How much was due to the actions of the mages themselves.......who were obviously being trained on mass in blood magery and were aggressively attacking the Templars in Act 1, which would have aided Meredith in justifying the need for more hardline methods (which of course would push the mages more into rebelling, pushing the Templars into more hardline methods, pushing the mages, etc).

I supported the Mages in my first playthrough as a Rogue with a mage sister + mage girfriend and I bought Orsino's act. I'm in Act 3 now in my second playthrough as a mage......I'm not sure I can support the mages again this time, I would love the option to say screw the lot of you and sail off with Isabella and Co.

Modifié par earl of the north, 19 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[Dave of Canada]

When I sided with mages, I regret the choice when everybody I saw were either crazy abominations or evil blood mages. At least with my templar ending, I can actually save the non-crazy mages and kill the rest.

Orsino is even crazier in the templar ending, it was awesome. I felt completely justified in killing every single mage because almost all of them were blood mages and everytime I helped them, it bit me in the ass.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[KJandrew]

While i started to hate mages i think i prefer the Pro-Mage Ending to the templar one. I prefer the whole disappearing and leaving the world to burn thing to becoming the ruler of Kirkwall before disappearing

[The Spirit of Dance]

If Bethany turned to blood magic I would have turned pro-templar for life.

[Ashaman65]

I would side with the Mages in any case, I mean I really, really wasn't surprised they resorted to blood magic, why shouldn't they?

The Templars went and used the most extreme method at their disposal, the right of Annulment.
So why shouldn't the Circle magi go to extreme lengths to secure power to fight for their freedom?

There's also the case that the Templar's seemed to be suffering from extreme cases of stupidity as when you push a mage further than they can handle they lose control and could possibly become an abomination, and it seemed that the Templar's where constantly mistreating the Kirkwall magi.

If I had been a Senior Circle Mage with a pristine record for behaviour and then the Templars suddenly declared they where going to come and kill me, murder my friends, slaughter all the young students and butcher those who where effectively my family then I certainly would be of the mindset:
"Well we can't win against an army of Templars as it is, I might as well do everything possible to take as many down with me as possible...sure that might lead to demonic possession but hell we're all dead anyway at least this way I'll take a few down with me."

As for the Templars invoking the Right of Annulment in the first place, it seemed to me a case of gross incompetence that the higher ranking Templar's didn't stand up to Meredith in the first place, the right was designed for when the entire tower was irreversibly corrupted which the Circle was not.
Oh sure the Kirkwall Circle was in a much worst state, no doubt due to the way they where treated, but that the entire circle wasn't to blame for the bad eggs, not by a long shot.
Meredith (Or Perhaps Cullen with Meredith being a loon) should in the most extreme case sent a message back to the Divine requesting Orsino's replacement.

As for Orsino in particular:
Orinso also mentions during the Templar ending that he had no idea how
far Quentin's research went until it was too late, although that doesn't
excuse him for allowing it to get that far in the first place but I can
sort of understand his fear of Meredith overreacting and blaming the
circle for Quentin's actions and so keep his mouth shut. Perhaps a
cowardly choice but still.
I feel Orsino wasn't a blood mage, well not until he was pushed to the edges of his sanity anyway by the murder of his people.

Orsino wasn't a bad guy, just a man without options and engulfed in misery over the circumstances surrounding him. Perhaps he should never have been First Enchanter in the first place but we'll never know if it wouldn't just lead to another mistake.

I think the fact that the Circles rose up shows how terribly the Kirkwall circle had it in the end, there have been Annullments before afterall and it has never led to such terrible side-effects.


On a related note, I wish we could have lopped off Ander's head, even as a Pro-Mage Hawke I was completely put out by his fanaticism to Mage freedom from the start, in my eye he was an Abomination after all.


Edited: Removed pointless quoting.

Modifié par Ashaman65, 19 mars 2011 - 07:19 .

[Brockololly]

Problem with the ending was that instead of being presented as fleshed out people, both Meredith and Orsino flip their mustache twirling villain switch and ditch any sense of subtlety and go into Big Boss Fight mode.

Nope, can't try to use dialogue to defuse the situation (see: Legate Lanius defeated via dialogue in New Vegas)or anything remotely subtle and personal, someone seemed to have dictated that the ending to a more personal, political story like DA2 needed to try and out-epic DAO and as a result they got Michael Bay in my Dragon Age.


"And then the statues come alive and its all like KRAAAWWW!"

[whitless256]

Ashaman, I think you missed part of my point. I'm still in support of the mages revolting and winning their freedom and I totally understand the idea of turning to blood magic as a final resort. Mages that were turning to blood magic through Acts 2 and 3 were more understandable. But I think you're giving Orsino too much credit. By the time the Rite of Annulment comes down, the mages are completely justified in defending themselves. Of course, I totally agree with Anders that turning to blood magic and summoning demons is NOT the best way to show the world you're not dangerous. It's a double edged sword. I would have hoped at least Orsino would have known better than to condone it as early on as he did.

The point I was making was that Orsino has been involved in blood magic since before the Champion even went to Kirkwall. Even before the conflict began between mage and Templar. Varric indicates that things began to get rough during the year the Champion was working off his debt with the smugglers/mercs. Quentin is already an active blood mage/necromancer/serial killer in Act 1. His experiments were based on books that came from Orsino. Orsino was helping this man even before tensions arose between mages and Templars. Meredith was right to be suspicious of him because he WAS aiding a known blood mage.

It's like the chicken and the egg. What started this? Did Orsino lose patience with the Templars even before tensions arose? Did Meredith drive him to it? Or was Orsino's suspicious behavior the catalyst for Meredith's growing paranoia? We'll never know.

[silver-crescent]

To me, no matter how many blood mages/abominations there might be, there are still tons of other mages (and bloog mages aren't necessarily evil anyway) and they definitely deserve their freedom. I'd never go pro-templar.

[Ashaman65]

whitless256 wrote...

Ashaman, I think you missed part of my point. I'm still in support of the mages revolting and winning their freedom and I totally understand the idea of turning to blood magic as a final resort. Mages that were turning to blood magic through Acts 2 and 3 were more understandable. But I think you're giving Orsino too much credit. By the time the Rite of Annulment comes down, the mages are completely justified in defending themselves. Of course, I totally agree with Anders that turning to blood magic and summoning demons is NOT the best way to show the world you're not dangerous. It's a double edged sword. I would have hoped at least Orsino would have known better than to condone it as early on as he did.

The point I was making was that Orsino has been involved in blood magic since before the Champion even went to Kirkwall. Even before the conflict began between mage and Templar. Varric indicates that things began to get rough during the year the Champion was working off his debt with the smugglers/mercs. Quentin is already an active blood mage/necromancer/serial killer in Act 1. His experiments were based on books that came from Orsino. Orsino was helping this man even before tensions arose between mages and Templars. Meredith was right to be suspicious of him because he WAS aiding a known blood mage.

It's like the chicken and the egg. What started this? Did Orsino lose patience with the Templars even before tensions arose? Did Meredith drive him to it? Or was Orsino's suspicious behavior the catalyst for Meredith's growing paranoia? We'll never know.

I was only making the case about the Mages from the point I saw it, I wasn't arguing against your or any one elses views in particular (I have NO idea why I quoted your post, I'll fix that now, my apologies).

As for Orsino I'm not completely convinced he always knew how far Quentin had went although I'm sure he knew it was techincally forbidden but then he might have been of the view it was just another form of Chantry repression.
But I do agree he went too far and was atleast partially at fault.
But he does claim (at a point where lying would be useless) that he saw Quetin's research as Evil and Immoral.
But your right he shouldn't have been helping him at all  once it became clear he was the lily murderer.

Problem with the ending was that instead of being presented as fleshed
out people, both Meredith and Orsino flip their mustache twirling
villain switch and ditch any sense of subtlety and go into Big Boss
Fight mode.

I agree the ending was abit disappointing, I can understand Meredith being a fanatic, having deep emotion scars due to mages and the idol making her go loony.

But the Orsino thing, especially with the Mage ending, just seemed daft and poorly implemented.

Modifié par Ashaman65, 19 mars 2011 - 07:18 .

[TJPags]

The only reason I sided with the mages was because the Circle mages didn't destroy the Chantry, which was the Catalyst for the final battle/Rite of Annulment. While I certainly didn't think mages should be let loose (espcially given whatever the hell is in the water in Kirkwall to make them all insane, blood mage, demon calling, abominations) I didn't think the Rite of Annulment was justified FOR THAT ACT.

However, when Orsino went Harvester, in a situation where there were no Templars actually attacking at the moment, and attacked nobody except his allies, not even trying to go after the Templars - yea, I figured I made the wrong choice.

[Dave of Canada]

Mages will never be free, they pose too much of a risk to Thedas. You can try to free them, you can advocate their freedom but then the only reason they can be free is by becoming like the Tevinter Imperium which works wonders from what we've heard (sarcasm).

How are mages supposed to live normal lives when you hear stuff like Meredith's story?* There is no freedom, there is oppression or tyranny. The Tevinter Imperium oppresses the "normal" people and casually use demons / blood magic like if it was nothing, what's their excuse? The Templar?

We're talking about people that are capable of burning down entire cities if they get upset, mind control their neighbors and do anything with them, summon the dead, summon demons, become abominations that cause untold death and destruction and require special task forces to deal with them.

When you hear about Meredith's call for anullment, she isn't doing it unprovoked. People have been trying to usurp her, Orsino has been opposing her at every turn including refusing to allow searches for blood mages and the entire city's escalating to war even before the Anders situation.

Now the Chantry is destroyed, the mother (which is well loved by the people in the city) is killed, all of Kirkwall will demand mage blood for what happened. Right of Annulment is a little extreme, however I couldn't consider the other choice. Anders sealed the fate of the mages when he did what he did, regardless of the Circle's involvement or not, because it was doomed to happen. What do you think would've happened if Meredith did nothing? Do you honestly expect the citizenry to sit around, expect nothing to happen?

Seeing all those blood mages, abominations and demons on the loose including Orsino going crazy and admitting he supplied Quentin? Including after all the mages that I helped went crazy? I felt I did the right choice.

Now I've lost what I'm rambling about and I'll end here because Firefox deleted everything three times and I'm tired.

*Her sister was an apostate, she turned into an abomination and killed her entire family and around 70 villagers before the templar could finally put her down.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[Laurelinde]

I sided with the mages because I just couldn't accept that it was ok to kill all the mages even if 90% of them were bad news. Bethany, Ella and that fool Emile were all 'innocent' (to a greater or lesser degree) and didn't deserve to die just for being mages. I did feel guilty that innocent Templars who didn't agree with Meredith would die; however I reasoned that they had more of a choice both in becoming Templars and in leaving, if they so decided. You can stop being a Templar (hi Alistair!) but you can't really stop being a mage, it's not a choice.

That said, having watched a video of the pro-Templar ending, I do wish that you had a chance to confront Orsino more directly about his dealings with Quentin if you sided with the mages. I saw the note on Quentin's floor signed "O" and I knew right from that moment that Orsino knew about his murders and had done nothing, and I would have liked the opportunity to tell him off for it. Because I didn't side with the mages because I liked or agreed with Orsino, just because it seemed the less unconscionable thing to do.

Modifié par Laurelinde, 19 mars 2011 - 07:34 .

[StingingVelvet]

whitless256 wrote...

But Orsino did NOT turn to blood magic out of despiration in the last moments of a hopeless battle.  It's more clearly stated if you side with the Templars, but the evidence was there in the mage ending as well if you looked for it.  Orsino says "Quentin, you were right my friend." in the mage ending, then fully embraces blood magic.  As you recall, Quentin is the psycho necromancer blood mage who mutliated, tortured, and killed your mother... with research sanctioned by Orsino.  The note in Quentin's home is from the mysterious "O" and indicates that all the books used in Quentin's research came from "O," who was fascinated by and wanted to be kept apraised of Quentin's results.  Who do you think that "O" was?

Very interesting, thanks for telling me that... I never put it together.

[Raltar]

Considering 99% of the mages in Kirkwall resort to Blood Magic when I decide to help them, I can't see myself siding with the mages again.

[Dante Angelo]

Nope I still believed in mage freedom. Three playthroughs thus far all of them sided with the mages. Besides Meredeth's not much better.

[The Minority]

Their both complete idiots.

But siding with mages is a much better ending.